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Author Topic: Drones this late?  (Read 3978 times)

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2019, 02:39:04 pm »
Friends, my mind has been running  a mile a minute ever since I have ask these  theoretical questions. If these theories are true or possible, I have come to realize even more mysteries that may now have been answered to questions that I have had but could not find the answer to. I am not in a position to share these with you now, I will soon be driving, but I will share them with you later possibly tonight.
Thanks friends,
Phillip
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 06:17:39 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Nock

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2019, 06:19:07 pm »
If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2019, 07:00:44 pm »
Nock, another good question.  Winter bees can feed honey, bee bread to generate drones or worker larva.  Only the queen requires the special diet of Royal jelly which as you know is generated by the glands from the jaw of the nurse bees.  Worker bees or queens bees are created by diet.  The eggs of the worker/queen bee is exactly the same.  The food stimulates the difference.  When I create queens, I graft larva that were intended to be worker bees.

So, give me a fertile bee larva less than 24 hours old and with selected food I can make either a queen or nurse/worker bee.  I hope I answered your question.
Blessings
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2019, 07:24:20 pm »
Quote from: Nock on December 11, 2019, 06:19:07 pm
If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?


This is uncharted ground and I do not want to hurt anyone's feelings, nor do I wish to come across as argumentative. Here is my theory for what it is worth. I mean no disrespect to anyone. The first job of worker bees when hatched or emerged if you will,  are to become nurse bees, bees do raise more bees throughout the winter as I have studied. Not many but some in my area which should be about the same as your area. I am just south of Memphis. Therefore they may be capable of providing a new supply of nurse bees?  Not many but just what is needed for developing queens. This is a subject that I have not seen ANY writings on nor talk on youtube or anywhere else for the possibility of raising queens in our area in winter even if only in an emergency situation. If what I theorize is true, then I have little doubt that bees should be capable of raising virgins in my area in winter. I just do not know if they will and if so, if they can successfully mate. Just my theory and thoughts for what it is worth and it may not be worth the paper that it could be written on?
Phillip
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 07:54:20 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Nock

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2019, 08:00:45 pm »
Quote from: van from Arkansas on December 11, 2019, 07:00:44 pm
Nock, another good question.  Winter bees can feed honey, bee bread to generate drones or worker larva.  Only the queen requires the special diet of Royal jelly which as you know is generated by the glands from the jaw of the nurse bees.  Worker bees or queens bees are created by diet.  The eggs of the worker/queen bee is exactly the same.  The food stimulates the difference.  When I create queens, I graft larva that were intended to be worker bees.

So, give me a fertile bee larva less than 24 hours old and with selected food I can make either a queen or nurse/worker bee.  I hope I answered your question.
Blessings
I was thinking even workers got RJ for so long starting out before being pulled off.
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2019, 08:20:39 pm »
Interesting Phil, your always thinking!!  Food for thought:

I could easily raise queens in February.  However, I look for the drones which take about 3 weeks+ to hatch and another 2 weeks to mature.  That is well over a month.  So for me, queen rearing is based on my drones.

My queens begin to lay bees in January, not much, but I always figure January is beginning brood month.  So I always treat for mites in December as January is to late, If we have a chinook in January with a warm night AND a warm day you can open a hive and see for yourself if there is a patch of brood.

January laying is geographically dependent, weather dependent and species dependent.  A chinook will tell you, when and if we have one.  This is what I plan on: January brood in my area, N. Arkansas but is by no means a for certain.  As most years I cannot check.
Blessings
Van

Blessings
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2019, 08:44:31 pm »
Quote from: van from Arkansas on December 11, 2019, 08:20:39 pm
Interesting Phil, your always thinking!!  Food for thought:

I could easily raise queens in February.  However, I look for the drones which take about 3 weeks+ to hatch and another 2 weeks to mature.  That is well over a month.  So for me, queen rearing is based on my drones.

My queens begin to lay bees in January, not much, but I always figure January is beginning brood month.  So I always treat for mites in December as January is to late, If we have a chinook in January with a warm night AND a warm day you can open a hive and see for yourself if there is a patch of brood.

January laying is geographically dependent, weather dependent and species dependent.  A chinook will tell you, when and if we have one.  This is what I plan on: January brood in my area, N. Arkansas but is by no means a for certain.  As most years I cannot check.
Blessings
Van

Blessings

Thanks Mr Van,  these questions are just spinoffs from Members thoughts on drones. And that has put me to thinking for sure! haa haa. I will take you advice and see if there is a patch of brood when the warm days present the opportunity.
I have more thoughts and theories about these spinoffs. I am still chewing on those thoughts.  :wink:

In your situation you definitely have to have the drones to do your AI-II.  Mites in your drone comb in January is definitely not good and a potential set back. Good plan Mr Van.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2019, 10:07:20 pm »
My mite count starts to skyrocket in July.  Or stated another way.  My mite count goes from an algebraic scale to a logarithmic scale in July.
Blessings
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2019, 03:23:16 pm »
Quote from: Nock on December 11, 2019, 06:19:07 pm
If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645/figures/5

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645#Fig2

Nock ask the above question to which I have been researching.  My finding in part to above linked article.  This article is insanely complex, see link of proteins produced by hypopharynx, the gland that produces RJ; crazy detailed graph; so here is the short version.

Nurse bees can produce Royal jelly, RJ, upon hatching but peak production at 6 days to 18 days.  The hyopharynx gland decreases in production of RJ and converts to production of honey related digestive components after day 18, suggesting production of RJ after day 18 is minimal due to changes or maturity of the gland.
Cheers
Van
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2019, 03:40:53 pm »
Quote from: van from Arkansas on December 12, 2019, 03:23:16 pm
Quote from: Nock on December 11, 2019, 06:19:07 pm
If there are no nurse bees through the winter then who takes care of larva once she starts back laying in the spring?

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645/figures/5

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-10-645#Fig2

Nock ask the above question to which I have been researching.  My finding in part to above linked article.  This article is insanely complex, see link of proteins produced by hypopharynx, the gland that produces RJ; crazy detailed graph; so here is the short version.

Nurse bees can produce Royal jelly, RJ, upon hatching but peak production at 6 days to 18 days.  The hyopharynx gland decreases in production of RJ and converts to production of honey related digestive components after day 18, suggesting production of RJ after day 18 is minimal due to changes or maturity of the gland.

Cheers
Van

Great information Mr Van. Thank you for your research on this subject. That could mean in my, (our area),  the chance of enough nurse bees needed n the dead of winter would be questionable at the least, to have the hypothetical ability to produce a queen. Is this right Mr Van? This is the way I am understanding it.
Phillip
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2019, 04:19:24 pm »
Ben, it?s looks doubtful to produce Royal jelly by bees older than 18 days. The insert is the basic proteins of Royal jelly and a few misc proteins produced by nurse bees.  133 proteins, I had no idea Royal jelly was so complex.  Now we see how Royal jelly produces a queen so fast,,,, look at all the various proteins the queen is fed.
Each little red and blue dot is a different protein.  The lines show which proteins combine with or produces another protein.


Blessings
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2019, 04:23:03 pm »
I know I am coming in late in this topic, but as we don't have snow but our night time temp may go minus a cold winters day would be about 10 C.
When we audit our bees in July, mid winter, if we find a few drones to us it is a good sign that the hive is wintering perfectly, they have enough stores and there may be a little patch of brood.
If we could get all our hives in that good condition in Autumn that a few drones overwintered then they would be in really good shape for the next season.
At almonds bees come from more warmer areas and these hive have drones, but after 4 weeks pollinating our hives will also have drone that have migrated in. In early September our drones at the best are larvae with purple eyes, but there are plenty of mixed coloured drones in the hives. Genetic diversity or potential problems I am insure.
I know one group of bees have a very bad attitude at present and are darker than normal, which we are blaming on the migratory drones.s
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Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2019, 05:44:44 pm »
Mr. Beavo:  Similar on this side of the globe, different dates though.  In February over 1 million hives will be transported to California for almond pollination.  A concentration of so many hive in such a small area, from all over the USA presents issues with disease,  1. primary concern and 2. drone migration a lesser concern.

I read your post to BenFramed about the absence of Varroa down under.  Very good for you.  I hope Australia stays mite free.

Cheers
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I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2019, 07:15:04 pm »
Quote from: van from Arkansas on December 12, 2019, 04:19:24 pm
Ben, it?s looks doubtful to produce Royal jelly by bees older than 18 days. The insert is the basic proteins of Royal jelly and a few misc proteins produced by nurse bees.  133 proteins, I had no idea Royal jelly was so complex.  Now we see how Royal jelly produces a queen so fast,,,, look at all the various proteins the queen is fed.
Each little red and blue dot is a different protein.  The lines show which proteins combine with or produces another protein.


Blessings

Wow, very complex indeed. And royal jelly is made from honey and bee bread (basically pollen). I also note that the vitamins and minerals along with antioxidants are not shown. Amazing complex food is pollen. No wonder so many advocates of the benefits of eating bee pollen are so persuasive. Thanks for posting this Mr Van. I fully intend to add pollen traps this coming season with enough traps to gather pollen for my family.
Blessings,
Phillip
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 11:36:13 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Drones this late?
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2019, 07:23:33 pm »
I have heard and read that we should not open hives in the cold of winter, but this off season when the days are warmer I intend to do some brood monitoring. I would like to see first hand what it up. Quick in and outs.
.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 11:40:43 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
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