Comb honey. A journey of learning

[Lesgold]

Hi Phillip,

Would love to hear your thoughts. I reckon that?s why we?re here. That video was the initial trial using just starter strips. From memory, the bees back filled 6 out of the 8 rounds. If I use thin foundation, that problem basically disappears. Starter strips are my preference however, as I would like to see the bees build all of the comb. In saying that, I can make very lightweight foundation by winding the rollers of the foundation mill up as tight as they will go. I have made a couple of changes from that first video. I?ll get something together in the next couple of days. Please post your suggestion. I would like as many ideas and options as possible. My hope is that fellow beekeepers draw inspiration from these basic ideas and improve upon what has been presented.

Cheers

Les

[Ben Framed]

Les, even on foundation-less frames I have noticed access holes build by bees on some frames. However in your unique, exclusive method these access holes has to be a thorn in your side.  So: A what if question.

What if you were to drill, beside each of these rounds, a hole of adiquite bee 'access diameter, adding a clear plastic tube to line this hole, creating easy, built to go, access from side to side of the frame for the bees' use.  I am thinking this might do it, 'hoping' this may satisfy the bees need for access, thus eliminating the access holes through the combs, while allowing access directly and jointly, 'against' these rounds as described.   

Phillip

[Lesgold]

I like your thinking. I?ll try that when I get a chance (at this stage it will be after Christmas) I reckon if they like the access holes, they?ll use them. If they don?t like them, they?ll fill them in. Tube Inside diameter would need to be reflective of bee space. What size would you suggest?

[Ben Framed]

It is just the beginning of winter here in my part of the world. To make sure of an adequate bee access hole I would like to measure an existing hole which may be found in the middle of a foundation-less frame. The diameter thickness of the tube would need to be considered and added to insure adequate bee access space.

As I stated earlier, I am very impressed with your system and plan to incorporate this in a couple of my hives, if not more, next spring, (Early May). I can't thank you enough for sharing this information as the timing is just right for me. I have a few months of off season to build the wood-ware needed before spring.

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Les, I have another question for you. Should these fames be built in two styles with access holes as we are talking about, staggering the frame designs from frame to frame, or build every frame in unisons. The idea is attempting to create an environment as natural as possible for reasons of hoping the bees will work from frame to frame using 'the' access tubes, without making new access holes in the round combs. Your thoughts?

I am thinking it will be ok to build each frame to the same measured specs. Frame to frame, instead of offsetting frame to frame, but I'm not sure and I'm only guessing. 

[Lesgold]

Good point Phillip. I am only running one or two of these frames in a hive. Each one is placed between full, straight frames of honey. I take a bit of time setting each one in place ensuring there is good bee space to ensure the comb will be drawn nicely. If you were to go for smaller rounds, the off set method you described  would be excellent. I can see you are an ideas man. Thanks again. I have been considering making smaller rounds using new plastic jars as a basis for the cylinders but haven?t tried it as yet. By the way, I think there could be a good market for slightly smaller rounds. Consider a family Christmas party with a cheese platter. A small round of comb honey looks and tastes a million dollars in that situation. What I like about this design is the appearance of the cells through the plastic ring. It does look effective. They are also very quick to make and put into the frame. Give me a few days to get some family stuff done and I?ll present the latest part of this saga. Some people may not like the idea of using plastic so I have gone back to using timber for the rounds as another option. It involves a bit more work but I?ve refined a technique that allows the rounds to be constructed quickly. Im pretty excited about this design as it looks organic and natural. Im ready to pull the first wooden test rounds off a hive in a few days. They were placed on a hive on the 29th of November and checked on the 16th of December. They were filled with honey and fully capped.  Now that was impressive.

[Lesgold]

Just another point Phillip. I did make a YouTube clip on the construction process that I went through to make the frame. Sorry, it?s pretty boring stuff and I?m not much of a presenter but there may be enough in the video to show how the frame is made.

Cheers

Les

https://youtu.be/S4ouJeRZLWo

[Ben Framed]

Thank you Les..

[Ben Framed]

I am only running one or two of these frames in a hive.

Have you experimented, by adding more frames per hive? I wonder what would be the results if a full row of 10 frames of these you have invented? What if a complete super, was introduced a box at a time, stacking just as frame honey would be done. I realize 'very close monitoring'  would have to be implemented and imperative; Looked upon as a whole new way of management. A reprogramming of ones mindset in management so to speak. Making sure overcrowding would not lead to swarming for one example. It might take some refining, learning as we go, to reach satisfactory success? In other words (work, work, work), but if successful the work just might be worth the effort, outweighing the exertion involved?

Phillip

[cao]

I like you way of thinking.  I might make a frame or two for myself.  Do you have access for sheets of wood veneer?  If you have a sheet wide enough to make the circumference of your hole, then you can cross cut the veneer.  it would then bend very easily.  Another option would be card board or even some heavy paper. 

[Lesgold]

Hi Phillip,

I think a full box of these frames would work well. I haven?t got that far yet as I?ve only been working on these ideas for a couple of months. I could fit 9 of these frames in a 10 frame Aussie box (they are poorly designed and are a bit to narrow). You may be able to get 10 in one of your boxes. When you think about it, there is actually a lot less work for the bees to draw out one of these frames than a standard frame. (The comb area is only 60% of a full frame) Therefore the construction of comb should occur very quickly and with less energy use. What I have found is that it is important to manipulate the frames to keep the comb building consistent between each frame so that you don?t end up with fat and skinny rounds. I am also working on another entirely different system where this issue showed up. (That?s another story)
Phillip, you are making my very small brain work beyond its capacity. I?m enjoying the conversation and the ideas you are presenting.

Cheers

Les

[Lesgold]

Hi Cao,

I have considered using a thin veneer of timber for the frames but I don?t have access to that type of material. I am sure that if I put in the time researching  a bit harder, I could turn up something. If you can get hold of untreated veneer, it would be ideal for these rounds.  I did some research on cardboard about a month ago. Even looked into the possibility of utilising cardboard cylinders. The big issue I have is that I don?t know what chemicals, preservatives and adhesives are used in the manufacture of that material so I dismissed the idea purely from that perspective. It?s great to see some good ideas coming in.

Cheers

Les

[Ben Framed]

I?m enjoying the conversation and the ideas you are presenting.

I am enjoying the conversation as well. Keep proceeding forward. Thanks for the informative video, good stuff!....

Phillip

[Lesgold]

It really is a pleasure to have this type of conversation. People with passion, interest and experience help to make this a real learning adventure. Hopefully there are others who can suggest, question, offer alternatives  and even give a ?thumbs down? to some aspects of the discussion.

Your suggestion about bee access areas in the frame got me thinking. I still wanted the frame to come apart easily so this is what I came up with

The holes are 9.5mm. My thinking was to make the holes big enough for bees to get through but at the same time, if it doesn?t work, I can plug those holes with a piece of dowel. (Sorry to talk in metric.) Here is a pic taken on the inside of the frame.

I think it is pretty obvious how it was done. This allows the bees to crawl through a wooden hole. (Which they may prefer) If the hole needs to be larger, (eg 12mm) I can drill it out. Extra holes can be added if required. What  do you think?

[Ben Framed]

What  do you think?

I am only guessing. Here is what I think by guessing.
I have noticed in a natural, foundation-less comb setting, the bees will generally leave a small crawl space, usually at the bottom or sides, (a go thru access area) your access holes picture has a ridge sticking up higher than the foundation board.This may be a deterrent.  I am concerned the bees will be reluctant to crawl over and back down through the holes you have provided. I am thinking more of a clear tube which will be in contact or next to the bottle round housings cut flush with the solid frame board, being as close to natural as possible. What I am suggesting  may not work either. But with bees we really will not know until we try.

Looking at natural foundation-less comb, We realize the bees will access the bottoms or the sides as well as sometimes other areas of the comb. However, this is a totally different situation from what is natural for bees. Being there is a SOLID foundation board in-between each of these rounds, I really doubt the bees will leave the round to seek access to the other side. I think they will seek to access in the comb area itself. That is why the theory of the clear access tube directly for each round housing. Even this is not guaranteed to work. Therefore I am not suggesting you build a lot of what I am describing until you experiment and see for yourself what your bees will do.

I may very well be wrong. The little rascals may happily use what you have posted here. Ot they may not use anything we offer. If what you have pictured works, then so much the better!   

Thanks,

Phillip   

[Lesgold]

Now I get what you are saying. If your theory is correct, it shouldn?t be hard to do. Will try this first and see how the bees react. They may just seal it up or ignore it completely. The next frame that I will remove from the hive will be foundationless. I want to see how many access holes are left in the comb. On these rounds, I put a starter strip all the way around the inside to act as a guide for the bees. (Had similar thoughts to you about access holes) These rounds have been on the hive for three weeks. I will check them in a few days when I get back from a trip away. Will post a pic. to show how the bees reacted. Looking forward to seeing what the bees have done as this is another technique that I?ve developed.

Cheers

Les

[Ben Framed]

If your theory is correct, it shouldn?t be hard to do.

My little theory might not be correct. Considering the bees would still have to climb out of the provided foundation area, 'work area' to use the clear tube for access to the other side. This they may not do, leaving you where you are now which is still a good place. Keep up the good work and keep us updated.

Phillip

[Ben Framed]

I sell a lot of comb honey but have given up on trying to get the rounds. My bees simply don't fill them well. I use thin foundation  (or strips) and either sell whole combs packeted with a stand or use a cut comb honey cutter (or a knife) to cut sections out to fill the cut comb containers. I'd love to sell nothing else as it's much easier to do than extracting honey which is a real chore.

Good looking combs! Nigel is there a special way you store these?

[NigelP]

Hi Ben stored frozen. It's heather honey that is slow to granulate, but granulate it will, Keeping it frozen prevents this. Currently 2 freezers full of it...A years supply.

[Ben Framed]

Hi Ben stored frozen. It's heather honey that is slow to granulate, but granulate it will, Keeping it frozen prevents this. Currently 2 freezers full of it...A years supply.

Your comb honey is nice, even to look upon. I was suspecting freezing is the way to go with comb honey. Thank you for sharing your experience and photo.. Good stuff! 

Phillip