Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?  (Read 1787 times)

Offline yes2matt

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 538
  • Gender: Male
  • Urban setting, no acaricides
    • Love Me Some Honey
Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« on: January 24, 2019, 05:23:07 am »
It's starting to be foraging time around here. I wonder: will the foragers go back today to where they left off yesterday? If we have a very rainy-all-day like today, will they go back tomorrow to where they were last? Or do they start over with new scouting trips?

Year to year, does the colony remember the location of a basswood tree or a clover field? or is that memory lost with the individual forager/scout?

Offline SiWolKe

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 327
  • Gender: Female
    • www.VivaBiene.de
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2019, 05:49:16 am »
The use the flow every day until it ends, then the scouts tell them a new one.

IMO,
they don?t remember last years flow. The scouts need to tell them.

Offline BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13547
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2019, 09:16:42 am »
To answer your first question, just put out your stickies (frames with honey left after extraction)  in a location away from your hives. Leave them there all day. Then remove them that night. The next day you will have thousands of bees trying to find them. They will keep checking for a couple of days.  They remember.
Once all of the bees that know the location die off, the memory is lost. The scouts will have to find it again before they are able to reuse the source.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19931
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2019, 09:40:12 am »
They not only remember, but they anticipate changes based on the changes from the day before.  They did an experiment where they put out syrup and every day they moved it another 100 yards and put it out a half hour later.  After three days the bees showed up 100 yards further at exactly 30 minutes later.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline yes2matt

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 538
  • Gender: Male
  • Urban setting, no acaricides
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2019, 03:53:13 pm »
They not only remember, but they anticipate changes based on the changes from the day before.  They did an experiment where they put out syrup and every day they moved it another 100 yards and put it out a half hour later.  After three days the bees showed up 100 yards further at exactly 30 minutes later.


That's pretty neat. So in a woods that bloomed progressively, maybe on a long slope or something, they would pick up the pattern and go with the flow.

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19931
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2019, 04:29:30 pm »
>That's pretty neat. So in a woods that bloomed progressively, maybe on a long slope or something, they would pick up the pattern and go with the flow.

Exactly.

Huber says he put some honey behind a shutter on a windowsill that fall and the bees were taking the honey.  The next spring on a warm day there were a lot of bees there looking for honey that wasn't there.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12698
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 01:04:53 am »
>That's pretty neat. So in a woods that bloomed progressively, maybe on a long slope or something, they would pick up the pattern and go with the flow.

Exactly.

Huber says he put some honey behind a shutter on a windowsill that fall and the bees were taking the honey.  The next spring on a warm day there were a lot of bees there looking for honey that wasn't there.

Mr Bush, I wonder if the honey was placed on a stationary object behind the shutter? How does a (new) swarm find and relocate a in old cutout areas that had been the scene of a hive removal a previous year?  As during the removal the original bees were removed and taken many miles away from this location and no chance of returning? Could it indeed be the smell, the (bee) scent left behind by the previous bees that attracts the new swarm??  Could it be that the scent left by bees could possiably be even greater than realized in the past? Even to the point that the area behind the shutter, which was cleaned up by the bees, was also left behind with the scent of the honey and the bees that were crawling, gathering, while removing the honey? Could these gathering bees have  possiably left a scent imprint on this area, on purpose? I'm sure that their is much about the honey bee that is still to be discovered? I am fanisated with the amount of knodlege that you have acquired and share through out the years you have been keeping bees,  and have great respect for your work.
Sincerely, Phillip Hall
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19931
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 08:46:10 am »
I can't say what could or could not have caused what he observed.  Could the foragers have marked it with a pheromone?  Maybe.  But some of those bees are still alive in the spring who were alive that fall.  Here is the quote:

"Experiments showing bees find honey by smell.
"To ascertain whether it was the odor of honey and not the sight of flowers only which apprises bees of its presence, we must hide this substance where their eyes could not see it; for this purpose, we first placed honey near the apiary, in a window, where the shutters almost closed still allowed their passage if they chose; in less than a quarter of an hour, four bees, a butterfly and some house-flies insinuated themselves between the shutter and the window, and we found them feeding on it.  Although this observation was sufficiently conclusive, I wished it better confirmed:  we took boxes of different sizes, colors and forms, we adjusted to them small card valves corresponding with apertures in their covers; honey being put into them, they were placed two hundred paces from my apiary.
In half an hour bees were seen arriving, they carefully inspected the boxes, and soon discovering openings through which they could enter we saw them press against the valves and reach the honey.
One may thence judge of the extreme delicacy of smelling of these insects; not only was the honey quite concealed from view, but its emanations could not be much diffused, since it was covered and disguised in the experiment.

"Flowers frequently exhibit an organization resembling our valves; the nectary of several classes is situated at the bottom of a tube, enclosed or concealed by the petals; nevertheless the bees find it; but its instinct, less refined than that of the bumblebee (Bremus), affords less resource; the latter, when unable to penetrate the flowers by their natural cavity, knows how to make an aperture at the base of the corolla, or even of the calyx, to insert its proboscis at the place where nature has located the reservoir of honey; by means of this stratagem and the length of its tongue, the bumblebee can obtain honey where the domestic bee would reach it with great difficulty.  From the difference of the honey produced by these two insects, one might conjecture that they do not harvest it from the same flowers.

"The honeybee, however, is as much attracted by the honey of the bumblebee as by her own.  In a time of scarcity, we have seen them pillage, a nest of bumblebees which had been placed in an open box near an apiary; they had taken almost entire possession of it:  a few bumblebees, remaining in spite of the  disaster to the nest, still repaired to the fields and brought back the surplus of their needs to their ancient asylum; but the plundering bees, training them, accompanied them home and never quitted them until having obtained the fruits of their harvest; they licked them, held out their trunks, surrounded them and did not release them until they had obtained the saccharine fluid of which they were the depositaries:  they did not try to kill the insect which thus afforded them their repast; the sting was never unsheathed, and the bumblebee itself was accustomed to these exactions, it yield-ed its honey and resumed its flight:  this new-fashioned domestic economy lasted above three weeks; wasps, attract-ed by the same cause, did not become so familiar with the original proprietors of the nest; at night the bumblebees remained alone; they finally disappeared and the parasites did not return.

"We have been assured that the same scene happens between robber bees and those of weak hives, which is less astonishing.

"Bees have long memories.
"Not only have the bees a very acute sense of smell, but to this advantage is added the recollection of sensations; here is an example.  Honey had been placed in a window in autumn, bees came to it in multitudes; the honey was re-moved and the shutters closed during the winter; but when opened again, on return of spring, the bees came back, though no honey was there; doubtless they remembered that some had been there before; thus an interval of several months did not obliterate the impression received."--Francis Huber, Huber's New Observations Upon Bees The Complete Volumes I & II Bicentennial Edition 1814-2014, pg 437
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline SiWolKe

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 327
  • Gender: Female
    • www.VivaBiene.de
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 11:18:48 am »
2515/5000
http://www.bee-careful.com/de/initiative/bienen-lernen-von-bienen/


Bees learn about their surroundings after only a few trips out of the hive, and bees can recognize colors and shapes after only a few actions in an experiment. Bees remember the time of day when food is available at a certain place. Bees learn to associate a particular fragrance with food reward after just one positive experience.


Behavior is imitated - even with the bees
Professor Martin Lindauer carried out an ingeniously designed study more than 50 years ago.
To the studies of Mr. Lindauer: Mr. Lindauer trained a bee colony that a feeding place was opened at a very unusual time of day between 5 and 6 o'clock in the morning. The foraging bees of this hive learned quickly and the bees visited the feeding site only in the trained time window. In this hive there was, as usual in the summer, a brood nest with capped pupa cells. Mr. Lindauer came up with the brilliant idea to train another bee colony on another feeding place visit, where there was something to pick up all day long. Now he took the hive?s capped brood and created with the newly hatching young bees a new colony, who was now offered food all day.

....
Passing on knowledge and experience - a tradition in the bee colony
The exciting question: When do the young bees forage? Do they fly out for their first tours with the foraging bees of their new hive? Or did they even learn as pupa at what time of the day the zeal for collecting is high among the parents? The answer: This bee group did not fly out with their new hive comrades, but at the time their parents were active. The parents, in which they had lived as pupa, only foraged between 5 and 6 o'clock and, just as surprisingly, the foraging bees originating from this hive were also active then in the new colony. The same phenomenon occurred when the parents were trained on a time slot between 8pm and 9pm. Then the bees, who had experienced this as pupa, also gathered around this late daytime.

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 12698
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 01:09:37 pm »
Reply #7 on: Today at 08:46:10 am

Very interesting Mr Bush as well as educational.
Thank you for taking the time to post.
Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline yes2matt

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 538
  • Gender: Male
  • Urban setting, no acaricides
    • Love Me Some Honey
Re: Do foragers remember from day to day? Longer?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2019, 09:07:57 pm »
2515/5000
http://www.bee-careful.com/de/initiative/bienen-lernen-von-bienen/


Bees learn about their surroundings after only a few trips out of the hive, and bees can recognize colors and shapes after only a few actions in an experiment. Bees remember the time of day when food is available at a certain place. Bees learn to associate a particular fragrance with food reward after just one positive experience.


Behavior is imitated - even with the bees
Professor Martin Lindauer carried out an ingeniously designed study more than 50 years ago.
To the studies of Mr. Lindauer: Mr. Lindauer trained a bee colony that a feeding place was opened at a very unusual time of day between 5 and 6 o'clock in the morning. The foraging bees of this hive learned quickly and the bees visited the feeding site only in the trained time window. In this hive there was, as usual in the summer, a brood nest with capped pupa cells. Mr. Lindauer came up with the brilliant idea to train another bee colony on another feeding place visit, where there was something to pick up all day long. Now he took the hive?s capped brood and created with the newly hatching young bees a new colony, who was now offered food all day.

....
Passing on knowledge and experience - a tradition in the bee colony
The exciting question: When do the young bees forage? Do they fly out for their first tours with the foraging bees of their new hive? Or did they even learn as pupa at what time of the day the zeal for collecting is high among the parents? The answer: This bee group did not fly out with their new hive comrades, but at the time their parents were active. The parents, in which they had lived as pupa, only foraged between 5 and 6 o'clock and, just as surprisingly, the foraging bees originating from this hive were also active then in the new colony. The same phenomenon occurred when the parents were trained on a time slot between 8pm and 9pm. Then the bees, who had experienced this as pupa, also gathered around this late daytime.

This makes me wonder about so many things - where is the knowledge/pattern stored? Is it epigenetic perhaps? Or more like a new baby who responds to voices it heard in the womb? Do the vibrations from the "dance floor" get somehow encoded in the tissues of developing pupae?