Beespace between frames and lid?

[SiWolKe]

Hello all,
do bees need beespace on top of the frames under the lid ( or insulation) to go over the frames as a winter cluster?
How do the move to the next comb if the comb is enclosed by wooden bars?

[Live Oak]

The bees can still move to the next comb.  I put an Immerie Shim under the inner cover of my hives.  This serves a number purposes.  It provides and upper entrance, vent for water vapor generated by the cluster, space for a Mitathol bag or food patty to name a few. 

[SiWolKe]

The bees can still move to the next comb.  I put an Immerie Shim under the inner cover of my hives.  This serves a number purposes.  It provides and upper entrance, vent for water vapor generated by the cluster, space for a Mitathol bag or food patty to name a few.

I?m not familiar with that term Immerie shim, can you send a picture or can anyone? Is it put directly on the frames and has an opening to the top?
Thanks.

[iddee]

Our friend Google knows everything.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=Immerie+shim

[SiWolKe]

Looks like a cloake board which can be opened but are not the bees still able to move over the frames? There is still some space or am I wrong?

I want to know if I put a cloth right on top of the frames it would be easier to take off my insulation lid. It?s bottom sticks to the frames and lifts them up while opening.
That?s a mess because the bees come out and attack if not smoked and it squashes many bees if I close up again while prying off the frames.

But my former mentor said the bee cluster needs to go over the frames in winter.

In winter times this shim is not used except for feeding I read, or is the insulation placed right on top of the frames inside the shim?

[iddee]

Bee space is about 6 MM. If they are gluing the pad to the frames, you have about 4M or less. If they are placing comb between pad and frames, you have 12MM or more.

[SiWolKe]

Bee space is about 6 MM. If they are gluing the pad to the frames, you have about 4M or less. If they are placing comb between pad and frames, you have 12MM or more.

iddee,
do you think they need any space above the frames in winter? Or do they go around the side bars?

[iddee]

They go around the side bars, or make "travel holes" in the comb if not using plastic frames or foundation. That being said, take note above. Too much space equals filling with comb. Too little space equals filling with propolis. Correct space equals easy lid removal.

[SiWolKe]

Thank you iddee.

In my case, the bottom frame of the lid sits directly on the ears of the top bars and then sticks firmly. Inside the lid frame I have 5mm space.
I'm thinking of putting a waxcloth over the frames, which is then propolized and keeps the combframes down when opened. The cloth is permeable.

What do you think?

[iddee]

The thickness of the front and back of the box should be the same as the width of the front and back stripes on the inner lid. That is your problem.

[Bush_84]

In the winter I put a shim on with an upper entrance drilled in the front. I then put foam insulation on top. It?s a very convenient space to put hard sugar and patties in spring. I do take it off when it warms up or bees fill with comb.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Sybille!, iddee:

The box or lid on top is supposed to keep the frames in place during transport.
My frames usually stick to the box. In the boxes that do not have a metal rail for the frame ears....
Sometimes, they come up anyway, of course. Happens with the Liebig-K?schden, too. Even worse, I think.

As for the lid and the beespace (which is certainly known to Sybille, thanks, iddee) on the frames:
I am a supporter of bee-space on the top esp. in a one-brood-box-system like ours (I just have 9 Dadant-frames in the box, you got 12). In winter, when they really need to cross to another frame, they cannot chew enough holes in the combs to succeed. They need to cross around the wood, if no tunnels are there (my opinion, that is).
In a one-brood-chamber-situation, they move to the top rather qucikly, as food is consumed. so they move away from the bottom bars (also number of bees declines during winter), where they could cross. Also, the front-bars are quite cold. On top, there is max. warmth and movement possible. So that would be the place bees could cross most easily. That is why I don`t use foil or wax-cloth (for my convenience). They could lift the foil, not the wax cloth.
Maybe my concerns are not valid, but I am not gonna try.
Little cracks between lid and box I don?t worry about since I know that so many American beeks have a top-entrance.

Hope, that helps. (copyright: THP)

[SiWolKe]

Very good post, BFB, thank you.
Yes, what you describe was my concern exactly.

[iddee]

There are 5 ways to keep bees. Only #5 really works.

1.Your way.
2.My way.
3. The right way.
4. The wrong way.
5. The bees way.

Everyone does it differently. If the bees live and produce, it is a good way.   

[Acebird]

Hello all,
do bees need beespace on top of the frames under the lid ( or insulation) to go over the frames as a winter cluster?

The bees can outsmart almost any beekeeper.  They don't need that space but you as a beekeeper might want it.  If your cover is solid and attached to the frames then getting it off especially in winter is not fun.  If it is a plastic or fabric sheet under the cover it can be pealed off much easier.  I try to convince people that it is much easier to place your insulation on the outside of the hive not inside the hive where the bees can get to it.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Hello all,
do bees need beespace on top of the frames under the lid ( or insulation) to go over the frames as a winter cluster?

The bees can outsmart almost any beekeeper.  They don't need that space but you as a beekeeper might want it.  If your cover is solid and attached to the frames then getting it off especially in winter is not fun.  If it is a plastic or fabric sheet under the cover it can be pealed off much easier.  I try to convince people that it is much easier to place your insulation on the outside of the hive not inside the hive where the bees can get to it.

who is putting isolation on the INSIDE`?
I would never have gotten that idea.

[SiWolKe]

who is putting isolation on the INSIDE`?
I would never have gotten that idea.

In sweden the insulation was put on the inside. At the sides was put follower boards with hard styrofoam ( I don?t know the engish term, the bees don?t munch on it) on top was plastic foil and a thick insulation batt. The hives were restricted to the minimum possible. Small entrances and a part ( 2/3) of the floor was open mesh. The bees wintered on two or three langstroth square mediums, the top ones were capped stores.

I insulated for the first time this winter, on the outside. I used plant fleece.

[Acebird]

who is putting isolation on the INSIDE`?

It is more common then on the outside.

[Ben Framed]

Keeping bees in
Frozen North America (Michael Palmer)

https://youtu.be/fFanJbaigM4

[paus]

Many of our club members and myself are using screen top boards instead of a ply wood board and in the winter we place a cloth with shavings or sawdust on the cloth then in the spring just dump the shavings.  This works great in NE Texas.

[MikeyN.C.]

Ace,  maybe he's using a 12 fr. box but only using 9 fr. Filling outside empty space with insulation and follower boards?
Does anyone have experience with warm way an cold way frames?
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cwww.html

[blackforest beekeeper]

who is putting isolation on the INSIDE`?

It is more common then on the outside.

not in my country. never saw or heard of it.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Ace,  maybe he's using a 12 fr. box but only using 9 fr. Filling outside empty space with insulation and follower boards?
Does anyone have experience with warm way an cold way frames?
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cwww.html

mean me?
I got 9-frame-boxes. But they are not always full, not even in winter. I use a follower board (just plywood) or a frame feeder to give a moveable wall. No insulation to the sides. It doesn?t matter, not in our climate. we just got a spell, maybe some weeks, of up to -10, sometimes -15 C. Bees don`t mind. They insulate their cluster themselves. Inside the box, where there are no bees, temperature is the same as outside, so.... empty space doesn`t make a difference. Or: not as much as to matter.

[MikeyN.C.]

BFB, you are using a single box correct.?

[blackforest beekeeper]

yep. 9 frame jumbos.

[MikeyN.C.]

How deep is box ?
Don't know jumbo frames.

[Michael Bush]

The top bar hives don't have any way for bees to go over the top.  If you want to make a space that will work that is between 1/4" and 3/8" (6mm and 10mm)

[blackforest beekeeper]

How deep is box ?
Don't know jumbo frames.

Hey Mikey,
Kamerun? Where you are from? just read this. Guess mostly assumed an American beek under the name of Mikey....
Jumbo is "Dadant US" in Europe or "Dadant mod." or just plain "Dadant" in Germany. Frames like a langstroth (ears and lenght), but 285 mm deep not just 232 mm.
So 9 frame Dadant/jumbo equals 11 deep frames.
To be before the next question:
why 9 frames?
Euro-standard-pallets can take two hives side by side (4 in all) if 9 frames are in the box. 3 Euro-pallets go side by side into a standard truck. So..... it`s all about loading and moving. No "center" frame, no magic numbers, just plain logistics.
Usually hives have 10 frames in Germany, there were some with 8, but didn`t succeed. In my area there are even some with 9, but the sides are too thick, so they don`t go on a pallet anyways. Nowadays there are some ridiculous large boxes with 12 jumbo-frames en vogue. Not really nice to handle, as they are square. But each beek suits himself. The bees don`t care.
One supplier has noticed the need for a 9-frame-box and so these can be bought now, too.

[SiWolKe]

The top bar hives don't have any way for bees to go over the top.  If you want to make a space that will work that is between 1/4" and 3/8" (6mm and 10mm)

Hi Michael,
the top bar combs have no side bars and have natural comb so the bees can move sideways around the comb.
My dadant frames have comb completely enclosed by bars, sure there are some holes between frame and comb but I believe the cluster might be hindered and therefore move over the top bars.
My beespace is 5mm, but the frames stick to the lid bottom rim. Maybe after reading the comments I will try to put a foil strip between rim and top bar to prevent sticking but not cover the whole space.

[blackforest beekeeper]

well, I just pry it of.

I got plenty of natural comb im my Dadants. But the combs are usually without holes.