How important is a "Packed" hive?

[TheHoneyPump]

It has been interesting to watch this thread originating as asking about a populous hive to degrade into discussion of treatment free and organic immaterial hyperboles .......

[van from Arkansas]

HP this thread did not DEGRADE rather evolved is a better word.

I find the beeks from across the pond to educational and interesting.  Yes there is drift from the subject, happens all the time, but not degrading by any means: enlightening is another good word to discribe my buds in Germany; er uh oh yes, we have a lady contributing to this thread so instead of buds I say efriends across the pond.
Blessings

[CoolBees]

FWIW - as the OP here, I've enjoyed watching the twists and turns this thread has taken.

I have a lot to learn, and several interesting things have come out here.

Thank you to all that have contributed.

[CoolBees]

... but, from what I've seen, I'm convinced (for now) that Packing a hive to high density has a positive impact on the overall health, vibrance, and pest resistance of a colony. I intend to test that theory in the upcoming year.

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Cool, agreed on the packed hive plan.  However make sure the queen cells to lay in.

On a study I read of packed bees and swarming triggers.  The issue of bees bumping into each other for lack of room appeared to be the biggest determining factor in swarming as conclude by the authors. My personal experiences with swarming is more determined by the queen lacking cells to lay in.

I deter searming by providing space: providing empty waxed out frames for the queen, adding deeps, even splits.  In my area, May is the month I must watch closely or hives swarm.  I am not saying hives will not swarm in say April, June, or July, rather May is the main month.
Blessings

[CoolBees]

Stinger - sounds good. Thanks for the input.

Question: what is the problem with allowing Swarming?

All of my TF friends hive increases come from swarming. (He never does splits).

[cao]

Question: what is the problem with allowing Swarming?

IMO there's nothing wrong with allowing swarming, except for the ones that get away.  Making splits is more controlled.  You're moving bees from one box to another, not trying to coax them out of a tree.

[Jaimes36]

Look up sight lining honey bees I?ve got 3 wild cut outs from feral bees. Never treat them barely inspect them and these hives have been with me for 4 years now. Varroa count is low hive beetles are so so wax moths non existent. Bought bees= treatment pm me if you need details. Just my .02 -j


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[SiWolKe]

Bernhard Heuvel makes a series of "adjusted breeding area", means packed hive, in our bee magazine.
The broodnest areas are adjusted to the laying ability of the queen. Such a hive seems to have more foragers and few nurse bees, so produce good honey harvest.
I found interesting what he said about swarming.
This quote is out of his first article. The next will be in february, if you are interested i will update.



Effect of adjusted brood area:

-compact brood nest:
few nurse bees necessary
cozy
swarm urge low
Bees are getting older
big bee mass

unmatched breeding area:
more nurse bees necessary
colder
swarm urge high
Bees die earlier
normal sized colonies

[Acebird]

Please update, but I think it is funny that bees live longer in the colder season.  It is foraging that shortens their life not cold.

[SiWolKe]

Please update, but I think it is funny that bees live longer in the colder season.  It is foraging that shortens their life not cold.

It?s not about the cold season, it?s about beekeeping in season. I think it will be about expanding and reducing a hive and how to do it.

[TheHoneyPump]

Please update, but I think it is funny that bees live longer in the colder season.  It is foraging that shortens their life not cold.

Agreed.  I believe it said/written somewhere that a Bee has a 100 mile wear limit. As the miles ratchet up, her stuff wears out.  Like the car that sits in the garage and driven only on Sundays will last a very long time, whereas the tires, shocks, bearings, etc on the daily driver soon fall apart.

[CoolBees]

.... The broodnest areas are adjusted to the laying ability of the queen....

If I understand correctly, this is what BeePro has stated also. Which is why he is using 5 frame deep nuc's with a QE above the bottom box. Based on a queens laying ability, that area is the maximum size needed for the queen - which makes the remainder of the hive more efficient. .... if I've understood him correctly.

[CoolBees]

... I?ve got 3 wild cut outs from feral bees. Never treat them barely inspect them and these hives have been with me for 4 years now. Varroa count is low hive beetles are so so wax moths non existent. ....

This matches my observations. These [types of] bees, once they reach an incredibly "packed" status, seem to be able to deal with all manner of pests in a "sustainable" way - for years on end.

My friend adds a supper (and harvests one) in May. (That's pretty much the end of the 'main' flow here.) Last year I told him to check that (new) supper in mid June. He did - it was drawn and full - he hadn't believed me till he saw it with his own eyes. Pointedly - he argued with me, before doing it, because he didn't "think so" and didn't want to enter the hive. (It was a guess on my part).

I think he could harvest 3 or more suppers off of each of those hives, if it were timed right.

Beekeeping, hobbyist and commercial, needs a "cure-all". ... Maybe, just maybe, if we took Feral Bees, allowed them to "pack up the hive" for a year or two, the formula might emerge where disease/pest resistance and honey production were joined together.

 ... from Michael Bush, I learned one over-riding lesson [paraphrased], "the bees know what to do, and what's best - let them do it" (hopefully I understood his points correctly)

[CoolBees]

Furthermore, I picked up the following take-aways from reading much of Randy Oliver's writings:

1 - all Hygienic traits come from the queen. There is no reason to punish an entire colony because of a bad queen.
&
2 - if you dont know what is actually happening inside your hives, you won't know if you have Hygienic trait queens, or where you don't have them. You won't be able to cull Queens that should be, nor promote genetics of Queens that you should. So perform Alcohol Washes and inspections, until you "know".
&
3 - No hygienic Queen/Hive can survive the influx of pests and diseases associated with Mite Bombs going off in other hives nearby (yours or others).

With all of these thoughts, combined with loosing all my hives in 2016/2017, ... I went out, located "Local Survivor Stock Untreated" bees (starting Feb 11 2018). ... inspections in Nov showed all my hives near Crash/Colapse levels (DWV/near total Mite infestation levels, etc).

I have observed Hygienic traits in these (my) hives.

So I began to analyze, "what we're the observable differences between my friends hives, and mine?". ... the Bee Density of the hives (Bees per SQ Inch) between his and mine, struck me. Thus my question regarding Packed Hives.

[SiWolKe]

Very good posts, CoolBees, thank you!

Beekeeping, hobbyist and commercial, needs a "cure-all". ... Maybe, just maybe, if we took Feral Bees, allowed them to "pack up the hive" for a year or two, the formula might emerge where disease/pest resistance and honey production were joined together.

You can do with your stock the same if you have no ferals around. Keep the best like ferals and let them throw drones to influence the genetics of your environement.

I really look forward what Bernhard has to say about his experience. He is a well known experienced beekeeper, started with natural kept tf bees and now, if I?m right informed, went to be a honey producer. I heard he treats his migrated production colonies but breed his queens in a tf enterprise.