What Is the Truth Concerning Neonicotinoids ?

[Ben Framed]

Being I am a first year beekeeper, and having built up to 7 hives, and being the area in which I live, (close to the Mississippi Delta), where much cotton and soybeans are grown, what am I facing in accordance with the threat of neonicotinoids? My first summer was primarily used to gather the bees and equipment, striving to get a good establishment for these hives here at my home, which is far enough from the delta area to be safe.  I realize that I must first get the colonies through the winter alive. According to the report from Mississippi State University, between the benefit of both cotton and soybeans, both show, on their chart, that a surplus of honey can be expected between these two crops, making it possibly beneficial for me to relocate my hives in early summer to take advantage of these long season bloomers. But as per the subject heading, I am concerned about the Neonicotinoids.. Has anyone, or does anyone deal with this type of situation? Or for that matter is there anyone that doesn't deal with this type of situation, that might happen to be informed enough to give some good sound advice on this subject?

Thanks, Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

[paus]

I am in the same "quandary" you are in.  A friend that raises lots of cotton wants me to put bees on his cotton.  There is a new Facebook forum named Texas Cotton Honey Producers Guild. I joined yesterday.  My main concern is Neonicotinoids.  Some of my club members are going to meet with him in the next week or two and ask about these concerns.  Since I first wrote this the name of the cotton group changed the name to "Texas Cotton Honey Guild".

[Ben Framed]

I am in the same "quandary" you are in.  A friend that's raises lots of cotton wants me to put bees on his cotton.  There is a new Facebook forum named Texas Cotton Honey Producers Guild. I joined yesterday.  My main concern is Neonicotinoids.  Some of my club members are going to meet with him in the next week or two and ask about these concerns.  Since I first wrote this the name of the cotton group changed the name to "Texas Cotton Honey Guild".

Thanks for your reply, I know little, (next to nothing) about Neonicotinoids.  I am thinking they are placed into the seeds, themselves?  Seems I read this somewhere. I am wondering if the Neonicotinoids within the seeds are enough to harm our bees? Also, when Neonicotinoids are used in the spray form, I am thinking they will defiantly cause damage or harm.  But wouldn't that be true for any pesticide used on cotton or soybeans?  There are beehives that are in plain sight throughout the delta region. So, there are sure to be ways to protect bees form the spray? Do beekeepers enclose their hives during times of spraying? Do they cover their hives also during this time? And if so, how long, or how many days until it is safe to free the bees to go back to work?  I have many more questions but this is probably a good enough start for now.. 

Thanks, Phillip

[chux]

I'm sure someone will come on here and talk about it. I remember reading a while back about there being one type of cotton that was treated and could possibly be bad for bees. Personally, I have had dozens of hives on cotton for the last 6 years, and my bees do well with it. The honey is very light and will crystalize rather quickly, but it is very tasty. Cotton works in my area and operation because it is one of the few things blooming at that time of summer. Without it, the bees would be eating honey I want to harvest. Instead, they keep storing away, and I get a good extraction at the end of the summer.

[Ben Framed]

I'm sure someone will come on here and talk about it. I remember reading a while back about there being one type of cotton that was treated and could possibly be bad for bees. Personally, I have had dozens of hives on cotton for the last 6 years, and my bees do well with it. The honey is very light and will crystalize rather quickly, but it is very tasty. Cotton works in my area and operation because it is one of the few things blooming at that time of summer. Without it, the bees would be eating honey I want to harvest. Instead, they keep storing away, and I get a good extraction at the end of the summer.

Thanks chux, that sounds good to me. Thanks for responding with your six years of cotton experience. I would guess that areas where cotton is grown that is low on pest will probably not have to be sprayed, or sprayed as often??  Is this what you have enjoyed, low or no spray? In other words, do you know if the Cotton has been sprayed since you have been keeping bees there?   And if yes, do you know if the farmer used Neonicotinoids?  I just want to tell you that I really appreciate you sharing your experience with cotton and the type of honey that you enjoy from it. Your post has really lifted my hopes.
Thanks, Phillip

[The15thMember]

Sorry, I'm yet another person who doesn't know a whole lot about neonicotinoids, and I don't have to deal with farm spraying in my area (which I am SO thankful for).  So if anyone has better info than me, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  I did do some research on neonicotinoids when I was looking to purchase some pollinator plants for around my house, and I found it was virtually impossible to find plants at major stores like Lowes and Home Depot that are not treated with them.  Lowes has committed to phasing them out by some time next year I believe, but who knows what they'll be replaced with.  As you mentioned, Ben, many times the seeds of the plants are treated with the neonicotinoids, and the chemical is systemic, meaning all the plant's tissues that develop from the seed then contain the insecticide, including of course the pollen and the nectar.  According to something I read in the spring, which I can't seem to find again on the internet, the next generation of seeds does contain less of the chemical.  Studies have shown that it can affect honeybee colonies, but it is exponentially more damaging to native bee populations.  Xerces Society has a great article about general information on the neonicotinoids issue entitled "How Neonicotinoids Can Kill Bees: Executive Summary".  Maybe that could help answer your questions.   

[BeeMaster2]

Neonicotinoids are systemic poisons that they coat the seed with. As the plant grows it absorbs the poison into the plant. This poison then kills any bug that tries to eat it. This means that the neonicotinoid is in the stem, leaves, pollen, nectar and the fruit (cotton). It kills in parts per billion, not million, billion. I think it is deadly to the bugs at 7 parts per billion. When the bees collect the nectar and dehydrate it from 82% water to 18% water it concentrates the neonicotinoids. This makes it even more toxic.
As far as I know almost all cotton, corn and soybeans seeds are treated.
Jim

[Ben Framed]

Neonicotinoids are systemic poisons that they coat the seed with. As the plant grows it absorbs the poison into the plant. This poison then kills any bug that tries to eat it. This means that the neonicotinoid is in the stem, leaves, pollen, nectar and the fruit (cotton). It kills in parts per billion, not million, billion. I think it is deadly to the bugs at 7 parts per billion. When the bees collect the nectar and dehydrate it from 82% water to 18% water it concentrates the neonicotinoids. This makes it even more toxic.
As far as I know almost all cotton, corn and soybeans seeds are treated.
Jim

Thanks 15thmember and Jim also, for your replies.  Member  I intend to read the full article tonight. This is really scary, like something form a horror fiction!! Is neonicotinoids the only sure solution to pest in the bean and cotton fields?  I was excited about the prospect of moving my bees there but now I am very hesitant to say the least! What will the honey do to the people eating it? Goodness!

[Acebird]

My biggest objection to Neonicotinoids is its use on food.  Monsanto certainly has its sights on any crop that is mass produced.  Anyone or company making profit from its use will claim it is safe.  Safe for WHO?  It is a known fact that chemicals have their greatest impact on fetuses and young children because their systems are developing.  It is illegal to test the toxicity of anything on a child so there is no way of proving it is safe until it is proven it is unsafe by fatalities and birth defects.

[van from Arkansas]

Ace{It is illegal to test the toxicity of anything on a child so there is no way of proving it is safe until it is proven it is unsafe by fatalities and birth defects.}

Ace, as you correctly implied, a developing fetus is most difficult to determine effects of an agent although as stated below we can grow the cells in a lab.

Yes Sir Ace we cannot test children however we can test umbilical cord tissue and tissue from a young child.  These tissues are grown in flask and can provide us with data.  Now, I am not saying all human tissues can be grown in a flask.  Nerve cells for example are difficult if not completely impossible to grow in a laboratory.,circa 2005, er uh, before 2005.  A developing fetus proves most difficult to determine detrimental effects so companies, {big brother} always places exclusions in the fine print. 

I believe the nicotinoids are banned in Europe, at least some Neonicotinoids are banned as there are many types.  The ban was due to negative effects on honey bees by specific types of the pesticide.  Humans are reportedly not harmed by Neonicotinoids but that is what is always stated by big brother.  I have read bonafied research that indicates Neonicotinoids are easily detoxified by the human liver. 

Personally I am not for or against the Neonicotinoids as I have not conducted detailed studies, only occasionally reading the research so understand I am not an expert to condone or condemn.

Jim and Member stated the basic facts, very accurately I might add.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Stinger {I believe the nicotinoids are banned in Europe, at least some Neonicotinoids are banned as there are many types.  The ban was due to negative effects on honey bees by specific types of the pesticide.  Humans are reportedly not harmed by Neonicotinoids but that is what is always stated by big brother.  I have read bonafied research that indicates Neonicotinoids are easily detoxified by the human liver. 

Personally I am not for or against the Neonicotinoids as I have not conducted detailed studies, only occasionally reading the research so understand I am not an expert to condone or condemn.}

Mr Stinger, I hope the studies are right about the research that indicates Neonicotinoids are easily detoxified by the human liver. This makes me feel a little better. I just got home and hope to read the article suggested by 15thMember before I retire for the night.  Thank you for enlightening us about the study!
Blessings back to you,
Phillip

[Acebird]

Ace we cannot test children however we can test umbilical cord tissue and tissue from a young child.  These tissues are grown in flask and can provide us with data.

Better than doing nothing I suppose but the real test is years of use. 

"Warning: Cigarette Smoking Is Dangerous to Health and May Cause Death from Cancer and Other Diseases." ..

[Beeboy01]

The controversy surrounding nicotinoids reminds me of the studies concerning DDT back in the 60's. DDT was proven to be relatively non toxic to humans but deadly to the environment as it was concentrated in the food chain. It seems we have the same type of situation now.

[BeeMaster2]

Except this time we are mainly using it in our food. Eventually we will find out it is affecting us.
Jim

[The15thMember]

I was directed to an article from Randy Olliver addressing the neonics issue.  Here's the link if anyone else would like to peruse it. 
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-neonicotinoids-an-objective-assessment/

[Ben Framed]

I was directed to an article from Randy Olliver addressing the neonics issue.  Here's the link if anyone else would like to peruse it. 
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-neonicotinoids-an-objective-assessment/

Thanks The15thMember
The following is just a sample  of the article by Randy Oliver that you suggested in your above reply. Very interesting and enlightening article. Thanks for posting.

Effects Of Neonics On Bees

Neonics are ideally applied as seed treatments, where the amount per seed can be carefully controlled, so that by the time that a plant produces nectar and pollen, the residues are too diluted to harm pollinators.
Unfortunately, during the introduction of the neonics, there were some serious incidents of inadvertent bee kills when the seed coating rubbed off in pneumatic seed planters, and the dust killed bees. In most countries, this issue has now been resolved.
This leaves the question of neonic residues in nectar and pollen. In general, the residues in the nectar and pollen of properly-treated agricultural crops (typically less than 3 ppb) do not appear to cause significant adverse effects on honey bee colonies. I?ve personally visited beekeepers in corn, soy, and canola growing areas, and they report that since the Bt genetically-engineered crops and the neonic seed treatments, that the pesticide issues that they suffered from in the 1960?s and ?70?s have largely gone away. That said?

The Neonics Are Not Without Problems

Insecticides by definition are designed to kill insects. No insecticide is environmentally harmless, and as we learn more about unintended effects, our regulators must revise the approved allowable applications.
We have now found that the honey bee colony is a special case, and is able to ?buffer? the sublethal effects of the neonics on the colony. So although properly-applied neonics appear to generally cause minimal measureable adverse effects on honey bee colonies, they may have more deleterious effects upon bumblebees and solitary native bees. This is a serious concern, of which the EPA is well aware.
 

[Ben Framed]

I am in the same "quandary" you are in.  A friend that raises lots of cotton wants me to put bees on his cotton.  There is a new Facebook forum named Texas Cotton Honey Producers Guild. I joined yesterday.  My main concern is Neonicotinoids.  Some of my club members are going to meet with him in the next week or two and ask about these concerns.  Since I first wrote this the name of the cotton group changed the name to "Texas Cotton Honey Guild".

paus "Some of my club members are going to meet with him in the next week or two and ask about these concerns."

Hello Paus,  How did the meeting turn out? What did the folks at the Texas Cotton Honey Guild tell y'all?  Reassuring, and I hope, good Stuff?
Thanks, Phillip

[SiWolKe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid



Eine im November 2015 ver?ffentlichte und von INRA-Wissenschaftlern geleitete Feldstudie zeigte, dass einzelne Honigbienen in unmittelbarer N?he zu Ackerfl?chen, auf denen Thiamethoxam eingesetzt wurde, in st?rkerem Ausma? verschwanden. Gleichzeitig stellte die Studie fest, dass Populationsgr??e und Honigproduktion von Bienenst?cken nicht beeintr?chtigt wurden, da die meisten betroffenen Bienenst?cke ihre reproduktive Strategie dahingehend ver?nderten, dass sie weniger Drohnen und mehr Arbeiterinnen produzierten.[35]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid



A field study published in November 2015 and led by INRA scientists showed that individual honeybees disappeared to a greater extent in close proximity to arable land where thiamethoxam was used. At the same time, the study found that population size and honey production of hives were not compromised, as most hives affected their reproductive strategies by producing fewer drones and more female workers. [35]

[yes2matt]

If you can get podcasts, check this out. http://traffic.libsyn.com/beekeepingtodaypodcast/Tom_Theobald_-_Neonicotinoids.mp3?dest-id=715151

[Ben Framed]

If you can get podcasts, check this out. http://traffic.libsyn.com/beekeepingtodaypodcast/Tom_Theobald_-_Neonicotinoids.mp3?dest-id=715151

@ yes2matt
I don't have podcast. Can you type in the heading and maybe I can pull it up on YouTube if it's avaible. Thank you Matt
Phillip Hall