Late summer queen cells

[Duane]

Last Thursday I found queen cells halfway started with a small larva in the bottom I'm guessing 3-4 days old.  A week before that, I made notes that it was a bee factory, several frames of capped brood.  Wonder if I hurt the queen.  I had been feeding the hive.  I notice no eggs in the box, a few mid-sized likely worker larva, and some drone brood and larva (big cells).  The queen cells were pulled out of worker brood cells, not like the past queen cells in early summer.  So rather than say, oh no, and cut all the cells out, I considered there may not be a queen.  Probably almost 10 cells divided between 2 frames.  Think I'm ok, or would, could, they swarm multiple times.  I noticed a large amount of bees on the outside of the box when it turned hot again.  And, are there enough drones out there this time of year for the queen to mate properly?  Guess this is a good brood break from the mites, huh?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{The queen cells were pulled out of worker brood cells, not like the past queen cells in early summer.}

Sounds like emergency queen cell or supersedure cell if indeed the queen cells are in the middle of the frame.  I can?t answer about drones in Kansas this time of year???

[beepro]

Is your hive going into Fall/winter configuration yet?

[Acebird]

The queen cells were pulled out of worker brood cells, not like the past queen cells in early summer.

Ouch, hard call for me Duane.
If the colony performed well in the summer it doesn't matter because if the queen was rolled at this time the colony cannot replace her.  If you can get a mated queen now at least it will be cheep.  The problem is not much time to prove her worth.  A combination is a possibility but then you risk another hive.  You certainly could use this hive for a resource bank for a number of other hives for overwintering.

[Duane]

Is your hive going into Fall/winter configuration yet?

I don't know what that means.  Some of my hives has brood on the bottom box.  Others I have moved down as past years show they don't on their own.  And then they starve with food below them.

[Duane]

The queen cells were pulled out of worker brood cells, not like the past queen cells in early summer.

Ouch, hard call for me Duane.
If the colony performed well in the summer it doesn't matter because if the queen was rolled at this time the colony cannot replace her.  If you can get a mated queen now at least it will be cheep.  The problem is not much time to prove her worth.  A combination is a possibility but then you risk another hive.  You certainly could use this hive for a resource bank for a number of other hives for overwintering.

I'm ok with the raised queens.  Are you saying they won't breed properly at this point in time?

[Acebird]

By the middle of Sept will you have any drones in your area?

[Duane]

That's what I don't know.  First frost is around middle of September.  It's been over 90F.

[ed/La.]

I am having trouble getting my queens mated and I  am near the gulf of Mexico There is some drones but I  went 0 for 4 recently . A few more ready to emerge so maybe they will mate. Many of my hive have no drones. Some have a lot. I am going to combine boxes if queens  do not mate  this try.  I need 5 plus a few spares. Duane the bulk of drones are probably gone where you live.

[Duane]

Yes, the bulk are gone.  Still see a few.  Probably not enough for a good queen.  Enough for a poor queen until they raise another next spring?

I have another box with 2 frames of brood and 2 of food which needs help.  The idea behind previous dividing was to have queens ready to go when and if I need them.  So I could hope for the best with the one hive raising a queen.  Or I could start dividing it up to other hives.  If I wanted to increase this small hive, how would I go about it without endangering it's queen?  For example, adding one frame of brood to the 2 frames is one third new bees.  Is that too many?  I could place the small hive where the big hive is and move the big hive over a few feet.  Or I could pull some resource over and keep some to see if the big hive will raise a queen, or is that straddling the fence and lose out on everything?

[Duane]

I looked again and the queen cells are capped now.  More than I thought.  There's some along the bottom of the frames.  Some are quite long.  And there's a large group of drone cells on one frame.  Of course, that's just that hive, so that's not all that good.

[beepro]

Just leave them for now and see what is the final result.  If they don't produce a mated queen then you
can combine later on.   As long as the brood nest is not contracting yet I'm sure there are some drones out
there.

[ed/La.]

If cell was just capped you have about 3 weeks before queen start laying and 3 more weeks before that brood starts to emerge. That is best case scenario. In the mean time you are loosing 2% a day to old age. There will not be time to get enough bees for winter. Buy a queen or combine.

[Duane]

So at 42 days, 84% of bees are gone?  Sounds depressing.

So about 3 days ago, it was hot and still and I saw a large amount of bees outside this box.  Others had some, too.  Yesterday  it was hot, but not so many.  Seeing that I saw some of the queen cells at the bottom of some frames, could the large amount of bees be an indication that a queen and many bees left?  When a hive is planning to swarm, does the queen continue laying some eggs, or is she shut off completely?  Not that it makes a big difference whether the queen left or was damaged as to what I do now, but curious as to what actually happened.  What is the highest probability as to what happened.  There was a whole section of drone cells.  I wouldn't think there'd be laying workers that quick.  Maybe the queen went bad why there's queen cells?  Or do queens choose to lay drones when they plan to leave?

[ed/La.]

Hopefully hive has some frames of capped brood to emerge replacing old bees. Queens emerge days before worker brood of the same age so you should have capped brood now. Your queen might have been old and ran out of sperm or just died. ....It is not swarm season so swarm is unlikely. Whatever you decide to do time is of the essence. Your bees should be expanding making the bees that will get them through winter.  Your hive is  shrinking with no queen. It is doomed. Once queen cells are capped you could put in mating nuc if nights are not to cold or incubator as learning experience.  This is easier and more successful in spring flow. Next year make queens and nucs early.

[beepro]

With that many bees left I'm sure they can make another mated queen.  My weather is turning to early Autumn now.  So in some
hives they already booted out the drones.  No more drone cells in the hives anymore.   It is all about the weather pattern.  Last year at
this time it was around 100F.   Now only 80s.

So I would leave this hive alone for now.  Maybe your weather will hold like ours last year to make them a new queen.  Even at 80s I'm
attempting to make one last queen at the moment.   Trying to extend my queen rearing season if possible.   If not then I will combine the
hives together.   If the mating nuc hive is dwindling then I can always add another frame of cap broods and bees to it.   

[Duane]

I'd like to see what happens if I left it.  But I also want to get my weaker hives through the winter.

I had added two frames of the brood to a weak hive.  I still see its queen and fresh eggs, so all ok.  It is looking pretty good, about 6 frames worth of bees.  I could probably add several frames to it now, right?  But destroy the queen cells on the frames I add, right?

There's another weak hive that the queen doesn't look right, kind of a slightly deformed abdomen.  Still eggs being laid.  What if I added a frame of capped brood with a queen cell to this weak hive?  I guess depends on if they thought she had something wrong.   Could it cause a loss of half it's bees or more likely they destroy the queen cell? 

[ed/La.]

Six frames of bees equal a nuc.Hopesfully it is mostly brood. Are you feeding,treat for mites?  You need strong healthy hives soon. You do not have time for queen cells. You need brood now. Buy queens or combine, do something or buy new bees this spring.  I am done with this topic. Good luck

[Duane]

Yes, thanks Ed.  I just thought things were different if I currently had a laying queen with eggs that will be coming down the line in the other box while the queen is being mated.  In other words, taking your advice on giving up the queenless box, I was trying to figure out how best to help the other box that has a queen laying eggs but may not be a good queen. 

But maybe you are saying trash both boxes.  And the third box I thought was doing ok with six frames of bees, doesn't have six frames of brood, but did see the queen laying more eggs now that I had added the 2 frames.  So maybe you are saying trash all three boxes.  Or put them together with 4 boxes on top of one another or give some to another that's doing well.

[TheHoneyPump]

Just read through this.  With regrets, it sounds like you killed your queen.  It happens, take action, recover, move on.

wrt the comment/debate about waiting for a queen to be raised: 
An attempt at summarizing what Ed is saying that at this point of the season any hive intended to make the winter, it must be a fully functioning hive - RIGHT NOW.  Complete with laying queen, minimum 4 frames full of brood of all stages, plenty of stores, and a box nearly overflowing with bees.  If it does not meet ALL of that criteria, it is a hive that is already dead but the bees in there just do not know it yet.  Or perhaps they do and it is the beekeeper who is missing the signs. 

At this point in the season in the northern hemisphere there is NO WAY a beekeeper intent on wintering will be waiting on queen cells and one of them to get mated.  If you do not have a queen going full out right now, you have nothing.    "Take your winter losses in the fall".  Either install a fully mated queen immediately along with 3+ frames of fully capped emerging brood, OR tear the hive down right now and use all of its bees and resources to boost your other colonies. (combine).

You are wasting time, dragging out the inevitable, and hurting the bees in that hive with undue stress as well as not supporting your other weak hives by not tearing this one apart to give them what they need.  Stressed bees become sickly bees.

If you are dead set intent on trying to get a queen(s) out of this.  Then suggest to still rip apart and tear down the hive for resources, but take one frame with a few QC's and setup a 2 frame nuc.  Let that nuc go for producing a queen, while not stressing a whole hive of bees over it.  Get the rest of the bees and resources into new welcoming homes (combine).

The same principle applies to the other hive that you say has a cripple mediocre queen.  If you do not have a good queen, you do not have anything, you have nothing.  Kill her now.  Tear the hive down, use the bees and resources to bolster all of the other hives.  Take your winter losses now.

The time is critical.  The 2018 bee season is over.  We have no time to dawdle or procrastinate or hold out on a hive to come around, it won't. Look after your bees.  Looking after bees means help them as much as you can wherever you can.  It also often means heavy handed tough love.  Culling the weak to promote only brilliance in the others.  It means stop unnecessary stress on a colony by ending it.  By doing so proactively before the resources are depleted, there are gains! Done soon enough the resources can be used to bolster the rest of the apiary.  The end result is instead of a bunch of weak-mediocre hives and suffering heavy winter losses, there are fewer but excellent strong healthy hives and no winter losses.


Hope that helps, in some way, with a push in the right direction with this.

[TheHoneyPump]

How many hives are you trying to manage through this and what are their configurations (#boxes high, #frames brood total, #frames bees total, notes or concerns of each)? 
I gathered from the thread thus far that:
- one hive is queenless with queen cells. (the queen inadvertently killed)
- one hive has a cripple dud queen
- one hive is weak with only 2 frames of bees/brood
- ...
- ...

Are we talking 2 to 5 backyard hives here or 50 or 100 or 1000's ... ?

If there are just a few and you can lay down a good description of your apiary and status of each hive, we may be able to help with a step-by-step do this to fix them all at once plan.

[Duane]

wrt the comment/debate about waiting for a queen to be raised: 
An attempt at summarizing what Ed is saying that at this point of the season any hive intended to make the winter, it must be a fully functioning hive - RIGHT NOW.  Complete with laying queen, minimum 4 frames full of brood of all stages, plenty of stores, and a box nearly overflowing with bees.  If it does not meet ALL of that criteria, it is a hive that is already dead but the bees in there just do not know it yet.  Or perhaps they do and it is the beekeeper who is missing the signs. 

This is probably where I was confused.  I had thought bees were supposed to be shutting down on raising brood in the fall.  I have about 13 hives and two had 6+ frames of brood.  Some have small patches of capped brood, with just a few eggs laid around the edges.  Most are one box of 8 medium frames.   Which told me they were doing what they were supposed to and that the two hives were not shutting down and would use their resources up through winter.  That's why I was trying to move brood around to slow them down.  I was concerned the season is over is why I've been feeding for some time now.  Most have quite a bit of sugar water, but I was concerned that maybe too much and they were swarming.  So anyway, that's what I was thinking in asking all these questions, but maybe I'm wrong.  From what you're saying, I only had 2 good hives and now I accidentally killed the queen of one. 

By the way, how does one keep from killing the queen?  Or like you say, it just happens.  I try to carefully pull the frames out, but sometimes they stick or come up crooked and if the queen was on the side bars, she'd be dead like others.  Usually the I see the queen stays in the middle.

If you are dead set intent on trying to get a queen(s) out of this.  Then suggest to still rip apart and tear down the hive for resources, but take one frame with a few QC's and setup a 2 frame nuc.  Let that nuc go for producing a queen, while not stressing a whole hive of bees over it.  Get the rest of the bees and resources into new welcoming homes (combine).

I like to learn things as long as it doesn't harm the rest of my hives.  I was thinking this would be excellent for an observation hive if I had one.  Maybe along the lines I was asking previously, I could make a small nuc for the queen cells, get the queen laying, then replace the dud queen?  She's still laying, just doesn't look right to me.  Then they'd still have eggs going and get a good (?) queen later.  And I could give some brood to them now.

Hope that helps, in some way, with a push in the right direction with this.

Yes, I've learned "hoping" in the past did not turn out well.  I need to do something, but have read stories of how weak colonies that survived become booming colonies the next year, so that delays me, but I did move some brood over to the one hive and it seems like it's going much better now.  So I need to do more with the others.

[BeeMaster2]

Duane,

The way to protect your queen during inspections is to remove an end frame first, Queens are seldom on the 2 end frames, and leave it out during the inspection. Move the next frame to the open area and then remove it. Put it back in slot 1 and take the next one out. Keep using the open space to remove frames. This way you are not rolling your bees.
Jim

[TheHoneyPump]

What type of queens are they? - Italians do not readily shut down. She needs to be crowded out of space to lay by syrup/nectar.
If you are removing frames of brood, replacing those with empty frame, AND feeding continuously - that is actually stimulating the queen. 

My experience is the queens do not shut down because it is August or September.  I do not recall ever seeing a calendar posted on the inner walls of a beehive box with the days crossed off by propolis X's.
The triggers that slow the colony down are:
- high resources and low space. Out of space to lay or to put stuff means the work is done and they start to relax.
- Dearth.  No resources coming in means no work to be done and no need for more mouths to feed
- Colder 24hr cycle.  Colder nights and shorter days.  Difficult to raise lots of brood when it is all they can do just to stay warm and stay alive
Until those are met, they will keep brooding.


Killing the queen accidentally happens by how you handle frames upon entering and leaving the hive and keeping track of where she is.  Beware she will jump across frames and cross the box faster than can be imagined.  I keep a queen catcher clip or cage in my pocket.  Enter the hive by removing and edge frame and setting it outside the hive.  Then can go through the rest of the frames with more room to work. When you see the queen, catch her with the clip or your fingers.  Set her safely on top bar of far frame in the clip or the cage.  Finish your inspection and put all frames back. Final step, release the queen from the clip/cage between the top bars of the center frames. Once she?s walked down safely, gone.  Then close up.


To put the QC?s in a nuc to mate a queen while you keep the cripple going and to replace the cripple later, would be a viable plan to follow.  However, the Likelihood of success at this time of year is around 10%.

Please be conscientious that at this time in the season the impact of any resources you take from one hive to help a ?dink? hive is weakening the donor hive and reducing its ability to make the coming winter.  It will take them a month to rearrange the nest to fix whatever manipulations you have done.  do they have that much time left in your area/climate. 

***. What works for me is this guiding adage:   Fall is the time to cut the weak to boost the strong for winter.  Spring is the time to cut the strong to boost the weak for summer.   Opposite ends of the winter demand opposite actions to be made by the beekeeper.

[Acebird]

By the way, how does one keep from killing the queen?  Or like you say, it just happens.  I try to carefully pull the frames out, but sometimes they stick or come up crooked and if the queen was on the side bars, she'd be dead like others.  Usually the I see the queen stays in the middle.

Follow the HoneyPump directions.  If you use smoke the queen is not going to be on the extremities of the frames.  Most likely she will be in the center and maybe covered in bees which makes is hard to see her.  Space is the key to not rolling a queen.  Do not put an extra frame in the brood box even though it might fit.

[beepro]

If you want to make a strong hive for this winter then do a newspaper combine on both nuc A and B to the
strong hive A.   This way you will only have one strong hive to overwinter with.   Comes Spring again you can
use the hive resource from the strong hive to expand again.   What ever you do make sure you have one strong hive to
overwinter otherwise they may not all make it if they're the weak hives.   I currently have 3 strong hives for this winter.