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Author Topic: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees  (Read 3252 times)

Offline beepro

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Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« on: August 18, 2018, 05:58:27 pm »
Hi, All!


I mention about feeding online store bought honey to our bees because we're in our yearly summer dearth now.  Fellow members here said
that there might be a chance that the honey is contaminated with AFB.   So it is not safe to feed to my bees.

My thought is to use sugar syrup at first.  But I don't want to dilute my real honey with sugar.   Then another idea came up.   What if I boil the
honey in water for an extended time say about 10 minutes.   Will this kill off the AFB spores?

So I use a small pot fill up half way with filtered water.  Then bring it to a boil and added one pound of online store bought honey while
mixing it with a wooden spoon.  Cover the pot and let the mixture boil on low heat for 10 minutes.  Set the stove  timer on.
When the time is up, transfer the pot on top of cool water to bring the temp. down a bit.  This will speed up the cooling process.
Then fill up quart and half pint jars with the honey water.  The last step is to add more filtered water into the jars to dilute it somewhat.  Wally!  Honey water is made!

For feeding, each hive already received a jar of honey water inside an empty nuc box.  I will continue this feeding to jump start the Italians queen's laying again.  Without this extra feeding, in 2 months when the mini Autumn flow is on, there might not be enough bees to overwinter this year.   My hives are shrinking in
population in this dearth now.  And since my IPM mite removal method has work so well on removing the mites (at the lowest point), now is the time for an early late summer build up.  This will be a 2 time bees emergence cycle before hitting winter.   I think this will be enough new bees to carry the hives over to next Spring.

If you are still concern about possible AFB contamination in using store bought honey then I have a method of raising AFB resistant queens should it happen at anytime or 3 years from now.  So let me know what is your thought on feeding bought honey water to the bees? 


Offline ed/La.

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2018, 07:14:02 pm »
If you are not harvesting any more honey it does not matter if sugar syrup is stored in same frame as honey. Store bought honey probably came from China. No telling what's in it. Not pure honey. Probably sugar syrup and god knows what. Adding water to honey can ferment.  I could be wrong but I think honey water is a no no. What ever sugar syrup you give them will be gone by spring. Are you getting any rain there? If no rain there will be no fall flow. Better start feeding sugar syrup. Maybe

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2018, 09:55:32 pm »
AFB is not killed by boiling. Commercial honey from the store, even if it is pure honey from American hives is a mixture of honey from hundreds, if not thousands of hives. Most long term commercial beekeepers have been treating their hives with antibiotics for years to keep AFB under control. Commercial honey plants are extracting super after super, from numerous suppliers. All it takes is one hive out of thousands to contaminate every bit of honey that passes through this equipment to be contaminated.
Do not feed bought honey to your bees.
Jim
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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2018, 10:14:44 pm »
Beepro, I like ed?s Idea of feeding sugar syrup instead of foreign honey.  AFB is rather unique in the bacteria produced spores.  As Jim stated boiling does not kill spores.

To kill spores one has to heat to 131 degrees centigrade with 25 psi for 20 minutes.  The time is the only variable.  That is the definition of sterile, again: 131C at 25 psi.  Spores, virus particles, all life is destroyed at those conditions.  There is one exception: Prions the agent of mad cow disease, Kuru, spongiform encephalopathy, proteinaceous infection particles, are all the same thing and the agent is NOT destroyed by 131C and 25 PSI.  Just pointing out an exception, there is no such worry with Honey.

Honey from your own apiary would cause me no real alarm.  Read about honey from China and you will be horrified.  Last year in 2017, in Chicago, approx 17 tons of Chinese contaminated honey was seized by custom agents.

Honey is basically glucose and fructose with pollen and precious enzymes.  Table sugar is also fructose and glucose, 100%.  There are specialized honey such as Acacia and Tupelo that have high fructose levels, 70% thus they rarely crystallize.  Just pointing out all Honey is not the same.

In short, sugar is not bad, it?s just fructose and glucose as the digested sugars, the exact same fructose and glucose in flowers.  There is no difference in the sugars.  Flowers also contain other products but I don?t wish to redirect this subject anymore than I already have.

So feed sugar syrup, it?s s lot safer than foreigh honey.

Offline ed/La.

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2018, 03:13:11 pm »
If I remember correctly you go brood less for two months for mite control. If correct that is why your population is critically low. Your remaining bees are all old. No nurse bees. It will be interesting to see how this works out. They probably need a few frames of brood to jump start. Keep us updated

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2018, 11:05:19 pm »
If I remember correctly you go brood less for two months for mite control.

???
John 3:16

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2018, 11:15:43 pm »
I never heard of going brood less for 2 months. Even a hive that has to make an emergency hive will have brood in a little over a month at max.
Jim
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Offline ed/La.

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2018, 06:47:39 am »
Perhaps I did not read his reply to me correctly.  Here it is.
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Re: Interrupting the mite cycle
? Reply #5 on: August 11, 2018, 05:37:41 pm ?
Quote
Ed, what you outlined, I already tried all of them before.  So I come up with a
more efficient method.   That is to give the brood break at the highest mite
level right after the honey flow.   This will take almost 2 months (after all the
cap broods are emerged) to bring the hives back to a normal low mite level again.  This will correspond to our summer dearth when the queens are laying less.  Now with less broods and less mites, I can manage it this way without the need to treat. 

Right after our summer dearth is the mini Autumn flow where the hives will be expanding again in preparation for the winter.  With feeding, patty subs and honey water, the hives will be very strong comes this winter.  So summer time is the best time to get rid of the mites.  With 10 hives using my method is not an issue with time or work input. 

As long as there are cap broods, making a new queen will not give them the needed mite management efficiency within a month.  This is because the mites can live for 2-3 months at the free running stage overlapping the new queen's laying time.   So the answer is to have all cap broods emerged without a laying queen via the cap broods removal IPM method.  This is how I clean up the mites from all of my hives without the need to treat.  It can be done if you staged it right!

Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2018, 07:46:29 am »
" This will take almost 2 months (after all the cap broods are emerged) to bring the hives back to a normal low mite level again."

Maybe my writing is not that clear.  But since you brought it up here:  The entire IPM process will take almost 2 months (after the Spring flow) to complete in order to get the mite level down.  The queens are allow to lay after the cap brood frames are removed.  So no break in making new bees at all from the clean hives.   After consolidation, the cap brood hive will receive a new mated queen to resume laying when all the bees have emerged with a confirmed low mite level.    My last count was 6 mites per bee emergence cycle from July in a single hive.   Out of 6 control hives using this IPM method, only one hive still has minimal mites now.  I will know whether or not a hive has mite resistance when the next new bees emergence cycle comes along at the end of August.   All other 5 hives have zero mites in them.   A few beekeepers have discovered this secret IPM method before me.   One even wrote a book about how he's using it.  I only improved on it a bit to work for my hive situation.  I have not read his book.   Going 4 seasons now without any sugar or chemical treatment.

Yes, the bee population is down quite a bit now.  Some are only 4 frame of bees while 2 hives are full of bees in 2 deep nuc boxes.  Remember that I'm only using deep nuc boxes as an entire hive for this season.   That is why I've not even out the hives population yet.  All the new mated queens are still being evaluated to keep for this winter.  They will fully recover when the mini Autumn flow is on again in Oct.   For now I don't have to consolidate my hives because these are all young queens from June.    I have summer trees that when water will bloom for the Autumn flow. Every year I time it out in response to the mini flow if no rains here.   As long as I hold off the water they will not bloom until it rains again.   Summer dearth will not kill them once they're established.   So the mini flow must be continue each and every year.   Spring and Autumn are the 2 critical period to maintain long term sustainable hives over here. 

For now feeding honey water, sugar bricks and homemade high protein patty subs should maintain their hive population.   Of the 6 hives inspected today, 3 show promising result with plenty of new eggs/larvae.   Young mated Cordovan queens just don't care but lay wherever they can.  They don't even care if there aren't enough bees to cover the larvae.    Summer bees will disappear fast if you don't feed them to keep them inside.   I've managed to stabilize the hive population for now with supplement feeding.

As for using store bought honey to feed my bees I'm willing to take a chance.  Better than killing more queens and entire hives.  Now you know why I said I'm a queen killer.   Made them and killed them when not know how to keep them alive.    Now I know how!    The honey bottle label says USDA certified organic raw unfiltered honey by Ecocert ICO whatever that means.  If it is imported China organic honey then it is fine for now.   Frankly, I don't even know where the honey source come from.  The label did not say Made in China.  If it is AFB contaminated honey then I will graft for the AFB resistant queen bees.  Last year's last batch of mated queens was at the end of Sept.   Maybe this year I can do the same again?    I already have the mite and chalk brood resistant queens.    So I don't see it as a set back by feeding them store bought honey.   My entire area don't have many commercial or hobby bee hives around.   Because all along I've been using the Cordovan stock as a marker to see what bees are out there.   Every season I get to see what bee genetics my Cordovan queens brought back.

I do have a pressure cooker.   Next time I will use the pressure cooker to cook the honey first.   Thanks for the tips. 

Yes, honey + water will spoil fast.   That is why I only use quart and pint size jars so that the bees will consume them within the hours.   The 2 deep nuc hives will received 2 quarts because they have a large bee population.   Once it is mixed in with the bees enzymes the nectar will be fine again.   No issue with spoiling in 3 season of feeding honey water.  Last year I use my hive's honey to make them.    I've perfected this technique otherwise cannot publish my findings here.   Just too embarrass to even mention it!  It works for me. 
 

« Last Edit: August 20, 2018, 08:14:20 am by beepro »

Offline ed/La.

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2018, 09:22:58 am »
Thanks for the clarification.  If I understand correctly you remove brood and leave laying queen. So hive goes about 21 days with no emerging brood.? Or do you then remove first few frames  of newly capped brood to catch most of remaining mites, increasing that 21 day time line. Where does the 2 month part  come into the equation?  That is what confused me. From what I have been reading 2/3 of mites are in capped brood. You are not getting rid of them just moving to different box. I might try some of your method of removing brood (2/3 of mites)  than I would treat with powdered sugar removing half of the remaining 1/3  of mites lowering mite count by about 6 fold from start.  This way new emerging brood  is only delayed 21 days. What would I do with mite infested brood I removed? Let them make queen in nuc so about a 8 day brood break. Then what?  Probably chemical treatment for nuc .Otherwise it would be to much time and management for me to accomplish. Then I could compare survival rates between different methods.

Offline Troutdog

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2018, 02:15:50 am »
Great ideas. Here's one for ya
STOP KEEPING BEES
no more mites

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 05:30:31 am »
"Where does the 2 month part  come into the equation?"

When I count it as 2 months, it is actually 2 bee emergency cycles.  Each month after the 21 days there will be a new bee cycle. So when you interrupt the queen's normal laying pattern there will be a delay in bee emergence time. I'm counting the bee cycle when the new bees emerged.  This way all the mites will be capture by the open brood frame.

"So hive goes about 21 days with no emerging brood.?"

Yes on some hives but not all.  The hives with a high mite count I will remove all the
cap brood frames.  The ones with the low mite count I only remove the cap brood frames but leave the open brood frames because no more free running mites inside.  This will have some new bees that emerged at the end of the 21 days.  All depend on the mite level and hive population situation.  I also use these mite free bees (from any hives), after they're emerged to donate to the hives that got all their cap brood frames removed.  This way all the hives will have newly emerged bees to keep it going until their own bees have emerged.  So even though it is delay for 21 days, with new bees added the hive interruption will not be that intense.  You are adding new bees in so even though there will be no new emerging bees, the hive strength will be increased because new bees will take care of the open eggs/larvae. 

I don't want to leave any mites in there because during the Autumn build up when the mini flow is on again, the mites level will also increased.  That is why I don't want any partial 2/3 remove.  Do it right the first time not only will save the hive but also help it to overwinter free of mites as much as possible.  My 3rd seasons perfecting this technique!

"What would I do with mite infested brood I removed?"

Depending on how many cap brood frames you have, try to make small mating nucs.  I'm doing this almost at the end of our main flow in June here.  It is not summer yet. I use all these cap brood frames for mating nucs ready for the newly mated queens.  You can also consolidate all the cap brood frames into one hive.  It will be a large populated hive for making QCs/CB or to harvest more honey if you have an extended flow pass June.  You can also allow all the bees to emerge then only treat one hive if you're the treatment beekeeper.

For me I use them to make 5 frames mating nucs.  This way I don't have to treat.  All cap broods must emerge before adding the newly mated queen otherwise it will defeat this purpose.  Because the mites will live longer in the free running stage.  So try to choose cap brood frames that have close emergence time.

"Let them make queen in nuc so about a 8 day brood break. Then what?"

It is all about the timing of things using this IPM process!

In reality it will be 16 days from the time that the QC is cap to queen emergence.  To delay this QC making time, after the cap brood frames are in their 5 frame mating nucs, I will wait until all the cap broods have emerged.  The more you delay the more free running mites will be knock off by the bees.  I have mite resistant bees this season so suddenly there are less mites than before.  For QC making, time the cap brood frames removal with the bees emergence cycle exposing more mites.  This way all the bees will emerge then you begin making the QCs.  You already know the 21 days worker cycle so count it to make the QCs.  It will be one and a half month before they start making the LWs bees.  Plenty of time on your hands  By this time all the cap broods should already be emerged in time for the newly mated queens.  To further delay the making of QCs, this season like last, I've use a small homemade fridge to graft the QCs.  This really help to time the bees' emergence with making the new QCs. More time and more control to manipulate things around. Quite a learning experience for me and I'm happy with the success so far.  Making new queens while getting rid of the mites all at once.

What to do with the single open larvae frame after it has clean out the
remaining free running mites?

If you have 1 or 2 hives then add 2 more frames to make a 5 frame nuc hive.  After the bees emerge give it a new mated queen to start another hive.  You can delay it for 1.5 month to get rid of the mites. 

For me I have more than one hive for this process when I made the cap broods manipulation. Let's say I have 5 hives for this IPM manipulation.  Then using all 5 remaining open larvae frames, now cap brood frames, I can make one nuc hive with 5 frames. Simple as that!

Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 05:53:20 am »
TD, my end goal is to make the mite resistant bees.   Cordovan bees will be my backbone to accomplish this process. 
Using this IPM method is only the beginning in evaluating the resistant queens I have this season.   I want to know why after this
process done some hives grow so fast, free of mites, while others simply limping along.   What is the mite level after this manipulation into
the Autumn and winter?   Will it work until early next Spring?

Until you have done so, you will never understand the value and learning experience on performing these little bee experiment.  Other seasoned
beekeepers don't want me to expose their secrets on an open forum.  But there are more little secrets after each bee experiment done.  I believe that
this is how we all learn.   Don't you agree?

If I don't keep bees and do my little bee experiment then I will never know.   If I don't publish it then other beekeepers will never know.
People already ask to buy my tf queens.  It is still too early to tell them that.  In time for every tf queens that I sell there will be a small IPM pamphlet attach to it.
In time they too can keep their bees without any treatment. 

Timing is the key!  Take out the mite at its peak while preparing the hives for the mini Autumn flow into winter.   All hives with minimal mites impact.   You can do it too!

Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 06:04:36 am »
My backup plan in case that AFB got my bees when queen rearing is not successful.  I plan to start all over using new bee equipment.  I already have the
backup brand new drawn frames from last season and plenty of new deep nuc boxes I bought already assembled.  They all are in storage for now.
When planning for a sustainable apiary you have to factor in the potential of a full blown hive crash situation, right.    Well, after the mite hive crashed in
my 3rd season, I've put in a backup plan just in case of any bee disease issue.

All the old bee  boxes will be flame torched and then turn them into cat houses.  This year I have one mama cat that has 2 little kittens in our
backyard.   One is gray and the other is a Siamese.  These are all feral cats.   When the cats come all the rats ran away leaving plenty of fruits for us.
Apples, grapes and persimmons! 

Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 07:48:52 pm »
Here is the hive's first new bees orientation after the cap brood frames IPM method done.  As you can see from the vid this hive is
very strong at the end of summer thanks to supplement honey water, sugar bricks and homemade high protein patty subs feeding.  The August new bees emergence is a strong one repopulating all the dwindling hives.  Issuing many strong new bees that are free of DWV and mites.  There are other hives with the same strong late summer bees build up.  Along with the newly mated June queens, our winter bees survival is ensure this season!

https://www.you_tube.com/watch?v=60hcKEcs4GE&feature=youtu.be   Munching on patty subs, sugar bricks and honey water.   Right side is the subs, top is the honey water and on the right is the sugar bricks.   They like them all!    Please delete hyphen.

https://www.you_tube.com/watch?v=lp-F5z8ac0Q&feature=youtu.be   Please delete the hyphen - between you tube for the link to work.

https://tinyurl.com/y72u3p26  When the syrup serving tray finally ran out of honey water they even climb inside to get to the last drop of nectar.  They sure are hungry, alright.

https://tinyurl.com/yd474jp3   Cannot have enough of honey water.

https://tinyurl.com/yaedctk9   Some big fat juicy summer bees, huh. 



Offline ed/La.

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2018, 09:28:21 pm »
Being a beekeeper I would never again buy store honey for myself or my bees. . Why not feed them your honey? I understand you like to  experiment and try different things but store bought honey? It doesn't make sense a beekeeper buying  honey.

Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2018, 02:56:08 am »
The reason I fed them store bought honey is that they got nothing store over this long summer dearth.   Whatever they collected this
Spring have already been use for the hive splits.   I split them to the max this season.  Because we
always have a mini Autumn flow here I don't want them to contaminate the real honey with the sugar syrup or store bought honey.  I only
give them enough to build up in time for the Autumn.   Over this winter I will continue to feed them patty subs and sugar bricks.  We have a
very mild winter that some consider it to be Spring in their region. 

So too many splits and not enough honey save up for them this season.  I have to supplement feed them otherwise they cannot build up for
the winter.   When I checked on the splits there isn't a drop of nectar inside the cells.   And since I've used up last year's honey myself and for
others there is nothing to give to my bees at the moment.   So only by feeding and whatever that they collect over this Autumn can save the hives now.

I also did not completely prepare the land to plant any bee plants this season.  But rest assure that it is almost ready to plant some bee plants for the
Autumn.  I have wild mustard and buckwheat seeds ready to plant for them.   Combine these with other flowers out there should be enough that I don't have to
feed them store bought honey anymore.   


Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2018, 07:02:06 am »
Beepro,
Keep a close watch for AFB for the next 3 years. Are you selling the splits or just increasing the number of hives?
Please update your profile to narrow down your location, California is a very large starts and has several different very different climates.
Jim
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Offline ed/La.

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2018, 07:09:40 am »
Sugar syrup does not contaminate the real honey unless you intend to harvest some of fall flow. Mark the few frames of honey you have left if concerned or mark the syrup frames when flow starts. It will all be gone by spring anyway.   Beekeepers feed syrup during th e dearth to keep hives alive and to stimulate some brood rearing. It is standard well accepted practice. In another topic you posted to Dwane that you like to feed weak hives to weight but you are not doing it. I am not trying to convince you because that is impossible. You started thread asking people what they  think but refuse to accept their advice. This is more of a rebuttal to your feeding strategy so inexperienced beekeepers do not take the risks you do. I agree with Jim about selling spring nucs. You would not only be risking your apiary but the apiary of those who buy your bees. I wish you good luck.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 07:20:20 am by ed/La. »

Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2018, 08:06:01 pm »
I'm not selling any queens or nucs this year.  I just want to increase my hive numbers and do my little
bee experiment while continuing to source compatible bee genetics.  Until I have a satisfactory bee according to
my standard I will not sell any either locally or across the state.   

As I said before, there are some hives that are booming right now.  For those I still feed them to weight for the mini Autumn
flow.  Some still have a few partial frames of honey.   The weak nuc hives are limping along so in addition to feeding I also
combine them into a single nuc hive using a QE with 2 queens in each hive.  The gentle bees I have this season do not fight to kill the added queen.   

Yes, majority of these are all new queens but 2 are queens from Jan.  These 2 show sign of not laying within the worker bee's
boundary.  I've once read that bees can care for more broods than their normal work load.  Without these 2 queens then the nuc
hives will be dwindling away as the hive population shrink during the summer time.   They will be next season's graft if they make it past this winter.
Interestingly the newly mated June queens all laid within the bee's boundary.   Might be a change of season here as we're heading into the Autumn now.

Ed, I appreciate the feedback from all of you here.  Since this is only a little bee experiment of feeding them store bought honey I don't
see any issue for the time being.   I already allocated 7 brand new clean drawn frames from last year with new nuc boxes just in case they
have the AFB.  So this part is covered to start from the beginning again. 

If I don't feed my hives to weight then overwintering them will be a very busy one for me with so many hives to tend to.  I no longer want to baby sit them through out this winter.  So feeding them is my only option now to build up before the mini flow.  Last night I check on the hives and many already stored their
store bought honey.   They may not cap them in time but with the Autumn flow on I'm sure some will be cap also.  My hives will be active all winter long while
feeding so no winter cluster for them.  Now I don't have to worry about which frame contain the new flow honey or the store bought ones.  Whatever they don't use I will extract in the Spring. 


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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2018, 11:10:17 am »
Why I don't feed honey:

1) it sets off robbing worse than syrup with no smell added.
2) it's too much work to harvest honey and feed it back.
3) feeding other peoples honey is almost certain to be contaminated with Cumaphos, Amitraz and Fluvalinate.

Why I don't water honey down if I do feed it:
1) it spoils too quickly
2) it's more work for the bees
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline beepro

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Re: Using store bought honey (+ water) to feed summer bees
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2018, 09:04:59 pm »
Mr. Bush:

1) I have combined the strong hives into one.  So no robbing at all as they can
defend their hives now.  They do like the smell of honey water.
2) I don't have to harvest the honey since it is store bought.
3) Don't have to worry about any added chemicals since these are the organic honey.

Water:
1) Only feed enough honey water so that the bees will take them in within a few hour.  No time to spoil either.  I like to feed them at night.
2) As long as their stomach are full and the hives are growing, I'm sure they don't mind the extra hard work.  Better than flying around in the dearth finding nothing out there.

No feeding no winter bees for me!