Bee venom question

[Dallasbeek]

Last night I was stung right on the spine.  I reached behind me and pulled my shirt away from the skin and happened to catch the bee in my left hand.  I guess I got only a small dose of venom under the skin in my back, because I had only a very small reaction to the sting.  My wife scraped the stinger off my back.  I must have gotten some of the venom on my fingertip, because it wound up hurting all night.  No stinger in the finger.  My question is, can venom on the surface of the skin, without it being injected under the skin, cause a reaction?  It was not bad, but just a slight burning sensation and the tip of the index finger is still tender to the touch today.  I had expected a major reaction from the sting on the back, since it was directly over the spine, but there's only a pimple-sized spot today. 

[BeeMaster2]

My only guess/ question is did you have a small cut on that finger?
Jim

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Dallas, I and others researched Melittin, an active component of honey bee venom.  In the lab we exposed bacteria to Melittin inwhich the Melittin would lyse or slice open the bacteria cell wall.  We then tried to insert DNA into the bacteria cell via the slice made in the cell wall by Melittin.

My point is bacteria cell walls, that is the membrane is cleaved, cut open, a lytic action, when exposed to Melittin.  This cutting of the cell wall is accomplished by a chemical called a phospholipase which is a component of Melittin.  Our cells also have a phosphate group on the cell membranes.  The phospholipase in bee venom attaches to the phosphate on our cell walls and literally slices the cell open, just as if cut with a sharp knife.  Our cell is then destroyed and the phospholipase continues to another cell wall and the process of slicing our cell continues.

Most of us have antibodies to this Melittin {phospholipase}and when our antibody attaches to the phospholipase the molecule becomes deactivated, harmless.  So to answer your question when bee venom touches the skin, if you have live cells exposed to the phospholipase then cleavage of the cell happens, ouch.

There is an exception, if a layer of dead cells on the top of the skin acts as a barrier to the Melittin due to degradation of the phosphate group, due to cell death, then there is not much of a reaction to exposed bee venom on the skin.

Take home message is simple, don?t get bee venom on any mucous membrane such as the eyes or mouth or soft skin such as under the fingernail.

BTW: most venom works the same as bee venom, that is a phospholipase group, poisonous snakes contain very powerful phospholipases,  whereas black widow spider has phospholipases that are directed at nerve cells thus a neurotoxin.  Neurotoxins are one of our most dreaded toxins, however bee venom is NOT a neurotoxin.


Blessings

[Dallasbeek]

 

My only guess/ question is did you have a small cut on that finger?
Jim

Not to my knowledge. 

[Dallasbeek]

Van,

Wow!  That's some good info.  This was on the tip of the index finger, so it could have started under the nail.  I didn't even feel this until some hours after the event, so it must be slow acting.  Thanks for that insight into bee venom that I never before suspected.
I gather from that that bee venom on a glove or something could be transferred to sensitive body parts a while after working with bees.  A hazard would thus exist if one had a need to relieve oneself, then, yes?   OUCH!  Do you have any idea how long the venom remains active? 

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

We maintained bee active venom in the freezer for years.  At room temp, open to the air, I am not sure about the stability of bee venom.  Pure melittin is white colored crystals, like table salt. 

Insightful that you though about relieving oneself.  That is a real concern but I did not want to go there, but you are very INSIGHTFUL as well as correct, burn burn burn and probably blisters where you would least want.
Blessings

[Dallasbeek]

Thanks for the information, Van.   I suspect a lot of us learned something from my little bee encounter.

[The15thMember]

Dallas, I and others researched Melittin, an active component of honey bee venom.  In the lab we exposed bacteria to Melittin inwhich the Melittin would lyse or slice open the bacteria cell wall.  We then tried to insert DNA into the bacteria cell via the slice made in the cell wall by Melittin.

My point is bacteria cell walls, that is the membrane is cleaved, cut open, a lytic action, when exposed to Melittin.  This cutting of the cell wall is accomplished by a chemical called a phospholipase which is a component of Melittin.  Our cells also have a phosphate group on the cell membranes.  The phospholipase in bee venom attaches to the phosphate on our cell walls and literally slices the cell open, just as if cut with a sharp knife.  Our cell is then destroyed and the phospholipase continues to another cell wall and the process of slicing our cell continues.

Most of us have antibodies to this Melittin {phospholipase}and when our antibody attaches to the phospholipase the molecule becomes deactivated, harmless.  So to answer your question when bee venom touches the skin, if you have live cells exposed to the phospholipase then cleavage of the cell happens, ouch.

There is an exception, if a layer of dead cells on the top of the skin acts as a barrier to the Melittin due to degradation of the phosphate group, due to cell death, then there is not much of a reaction to exposed bee venom on the skin.

Take home message is simple, don?t get bee venom on any mucous membrane such as the eyes or mouth or soft skin such as under the fingernail.

BTW: most venom works the same as bee venom, that is a phospholipase group, poisonous snakes contain very powerful phospholipases,  whereas black widow spider has phospholipases that are directed at nerve cells thus a neurotoxin.  Neurotoxins are one of our most dreaded toxins, however bee venom is NOT a neurotoxin.


Blessings

Absolutely fascinating information!  Keep this sort of thing coming, Van.  I just eat it up. 

Thanks for the information, Van.   I suspect a lot of us learned something from my little bee encounter.

I certainly did.  Feel free to continue to be our guinea pig for the purposes of education, Dallasbeek! 

[Acebird]

Dallas, I and others researched Melittin, an active component of honey bee venom.  In the lab we exposed bacteria to Melittin inwhich the Melittin would lyse or slice open the bacteria cell wall.  We then tried to insert DNA into the bacteria cell via the slice made in the cell wall by Melittin.

My point is bacteria cell walls, that is the membrane is cleaved, cut open, a lytic action, when exposed to Melittin.  This cutting of the cell wall is accomplished by a chemical called a phospholipase which is a component of Melittin.  Our cells also have a phosphate group on the cell membranes.  The phospholipase in bee venom attaches to the phosphate on our cell walls and literally slices the cell open, just as if cut with a sharp knife.  Our cell is then destroyed and the phospholipase continues to another cell wall and the process of slicing our cell continues.

Most of us have antibodies to this Melittin {phospholipase}and when our antibody attaches to the phospholipase the molecule becomes deactivated, harmless.  So to answer your question when bee venom touches the skin, if you have live cells exposed to the phospholipase then cleavage of the cell happens, ouch.

There is an exception, if a layer of dead cells on the top of the skin acts as a barrier to the Melittin due to degradation of the phosphate group, due to cell death, then there is not much of a reaction to exposed bee venom on the skin.

Take home message is simple, don?t get bee venom on any mucous membrane such as the eyes or mouth or soft skin such as under the fingernail.

BTW: most venom works the same as bee venom, that is a phospholipase group, poisonous snakes contain very powerful phospholipases,  whereas black widow spider has phospholipases that are directed at nerve cells thus a neurotoxin.  Neurotoxins are one of our most dreaded toxins, however bee venom is NOT a neurotoxin.


Blessings

Normally I don't quote whole post but it is so good to have a scientist on the forum.  Thanks Van

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Dallas, Member, Ace: thank you so much for the very kind words.  Just makes my evening.  We have a good bunch of folks on Beemaster.
Blessings

[Hops Brewster]

It is possible there was more than one bee and another got the finger.  The stinger is not always left behind.  sometimes, for whatever reason, it's just a stab-n-fly thing.  Perhaps something like a piece of fabric or some movement on your part  interferes with the bee's thrust.  The sting penetrates just enough to inject some venom, but not deep enough to leave the sting behind.
That's happened to me more than once.  Last week.

[BeeMaster2]

I have had the same thing happen to me as Hops on several occasions. Almost every time that the stinger does not stay in has been on my finger tips and palms.
Jim

[Dallasbeek]

There was no penetration of my fingertip on this occasion, so I think the venom was topically "applied" by the angry bee, or came from where the bee stung my back -- the stinger didn't seem to be fully into the flesh, although the bee's guts were found on the floor?

[BeeMaster2]

Dallas,
When ever I get stung without the stinger staying in me it never leaves any marks at all. Not even a red mark.
Jim

[The15thMember]

The first time I got stung the stinger didn't stay in me and I had a full blown reaction, but she did get me pretty good.  I scraped her out of my arm, instead of just her stinger! So far though, my body seems to react pretty intensely, so maybe that's just me.   

[gww]

dallas

There was no penetration of my fingertip on this occasion, so I think the venom was topically "applied" by the angry bee, or came from where the bee stung my back -- the stinger didn't seem to be fully into the flesh, although the bee's guts were found on the floor?

I had this sorta happen yesterday on the inside of my arm in where my elbow is.  I brushed my hive tool and the stinger fell out and I do not think it was really in at all and I felt it a little but have zero mark, no itching and no redness which is not normal to me.  I have had a few to the finger tips through hospital gloves that have acted the same way, I start to feel the pain of a sting but move or pull on the glove and it is not set well enough and leaves no mark and the pain pretty well quits lots faster then a real sting.
Cheers
gww