Diagnosis help, dry larvae, some dark discoloration

[yes2matt]

I've got a couple of really sick colonies I think. They have been nuc size since February, a cantaloupe size nest is all they can maintain. Because the larvae or pupae die, they get hauled out, and never make it to nurse. And the queen is in there laying but just filling up the old nest. The pattern looks like a voting map that shows the counties. :(

The little larvae have just a tiny amount of jelly, you can see in the pic. And the bigger worms are dry (first pic). Some of them appear to be head-down in the cell. Some of them have black on them. (Third pic)

I stuck a stick in a dead worm and it was white  liquid with no stringiness.

There is fresh nectar and pollen coming in, plenty of it. One colony had enough spare bees to sugar roll: two mites in a half cup. (1/150)

See what you think, I'm going to dig out my notes from bee school.

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[iddee]

Call Nancy or Gregory.
They will come out and tell you what it is and what to do about it. The service is free.

https://www.ncbeekeepers.org/resources/apiary-inspection-program

[beepro]

I suspect EFB disease!    99.9% accuracy as I've seen them before.  Luckily, it is treatable   I would reqeen to a
more resistant line of queens.

[Bush_84]

I am curious to see what happens with this. It?s always hard to diagnose these things. To me it sounds like a brood disease. Doesn?t look like chalk mummies. I don?t see any sunken caps, which I think is afb. I?m wondering if efb is the answer. Have you noticed a smell or tried to rope some of the brood?

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

From the pics, I see a lot of pearl white healthy larva.  The bottom pic clearly shows a problem with one larva.

According to the stick test, the brood tested negative for American foul brood.  EFB should show a lot of brown larva which I don?t see, the cells are brown which could mask brown larva.  The dead shrivel up larva, I cannot see.

The author stated brown larva which is a characteristic sigh of EFB, but I could not see it in the pics.  If there is brown larva I would consider positive for EFB, and therefore a false negative with the stick test.


Ok I took a better look.  In the second pic is what appears to be dead brown larva of unknown age.  If the larva is hard that is indication of a lot of time.  If this is EFB, I don?t understand why so much pearl white healthy larva.  I realize not every larva is affected, but EFB should be detectable on some adjacent larva with a sticky goo when stick tested and affected larva at different ages.

I see a lot of healthy larva of all ages, even eggs.

[Bush_84]

I missed the mention of the rope test. That officially rules out afb. I think I see efb scales blobbing up on the bottom in picture two and three.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I can?t see the scales, however your eyes are better than mine.  If truly scales they should be hard and stuck to the cell.

Bush, google pics of EFB, there are lots of brown brood, easy to see, 50% of brood is brown.  This is what throws me, so much pearly white brood, not a single brown larva in the pics.  Puzzlingly me, that is I don?t think it?s EFB from those pic.  And no mention of foul or ammonia smell.

[Bush_84]

In picture two there are three larvae in a vertical line. The top and bottom one appear to be puddling up on the bottom wall of the cell. The one on the bottom appears to be starting to get a bit more stiff than the one on the top. The one in the middle is starting to get a brown/black tip. If you also look closely a bit down and one row to the left there?s a small larvae that?s also brown.

[beepro]

Once the larva dried up they will turn brown inside the cell.  It is more noticeable with
the gray color bees than the Italians, lighter color bees.  The pics show more Italians than the gray color bees.  Gray bees' dead pupae have the darker color inside the cells compare to the yellow color bees.  Maybe the pics did not show everything at every stage inside the cells.   

[yes2matt]

Call Nancy or Gregory.
They will come out and tell you what it is and what to do about it. The service is free.

https://www.ncbeekeepers.org/resources/apiary-inspection-program

Yes I will call the inspector today.

Since y'all calling it EFB I looked it up here: https://beeinformed.org/2013/04/05/european-foulbrood-efb-identification/   and while my frames don't look quite that bad they definitely look similar. I didn't notice discolored jelly, but I wasn't looking for it.

No foul smell to report.

:( I am grumpy about this. Thanks for your help!

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[Acebird]

I am wondering if you had a cold snap on a small colony.

[beepro]

Don't worry.  EFB is curable with antibiotic.   WE all went through this process when keeping bees for
a while.   You can consider requeening with more disease resistant stock in the future too.

[Ben Framed]

The pictures are not there from my vantage point. Just a lot of blank space?

[paus]

Log in

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes:  I see the three larva in second pic, they are white but shape weird.....  I don?t know what to think if this shape.

I can see one larva, second pic, definitely brown, 2 day Old larva?

I can?t say what is going on, certainly not typical EFB.  Do you notice any smell, ammonia or similar foul smell that is characteristic of EFB.

This day, Wed, are things worse, better, same??  If EFB, there should be more brown, dead larva as this disease is contagious, progressive, meaning gets worse with time, unless you have superior nurse bees that can limit disease by removing infected brood.

I hope this is self resolving, a littler thing that just goes away due to nurse bees removing problem.
Blessings

[Bush_84]

I?m curious for an update when it comes.

[yes2matt]

Mini-update. I spoke w the NC state inspector for my region. I sent him the pics I posted and described the situation. He said he thought it looked like EFB  "but not near as bad as the fourteen hives I just looked at."  He recommended to give them 1:1 sugar syrup for now and he's intending to come look at them at the end of this week. 

I moved them too, to full sun on mowed lawn. They were in a 50% shady kinda damp field with tall weeds. It's pretty humid at my place generally so hopefully a little drier location will help.

I could use some divining rods too. :)

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[eltalia]

I'd go with EFB also given the curling up and no tucker in the cell, ergo not floating
in gel. Why it's not affectibg widely can only be down to hygine, as is the absence of
tucker. Smart bees them.

Bill

[Bush_84]

These situations are both educational and interesting. I?ve never seen efb but I?d like to get some experience with it in order to better identify it/deal with it. 

[capt44]

Looks like European Foul Brood. It is a bacteria that infects and kills the larva just before they are ready to be capped.
I have had European Foul Brood before and I treated with Terramycin which now you have to have a script from a Vet to purchase it.
I isolated the Queen for 10 days and treated with the Terramycin.
My beeyard was Quarrentined for 30 days.
When I released the Queen the bees balled her and killed her.
I eventually lost that said hive.
I had it again this spring and called the bee inspector.
I told him I was going to burn the bees and hive and start over.
Remember when you are treating the bees the bees are still flying spreading the spores or bacteria to other bees.
The Vet charges a farm call and won't even get out of his vehicle.
Then charged for a script to purchase the said Terramycin.
Then wind up losing the hive and still have a contaminated beeyard.
I just burn the infected hive and be done with it for it's cheaper to start a new hive than to treat.
That's from my own experience with European Foul Brood.

[iddee]

I may kill the bees and freeze the equipment before reusing it, but I would never burn it.  EFB will not lie dormant for years like AFB will.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Iddee, you are correct, EFB does not produce spores as with AFB.  You choice of freezing would most likely kill any remaining EFB.  Freezing causes crystallization and crystallization is what actually kill the EFB.  Somebody taught you well or you studied.

However, just personal preference, I would go with what Capt44 texted and immediately burn the hive.  Just personal preference, Iddee, I am not disagreeing with you, as I realize freezing would most likely cause resolve.

Also I might add, Capt44 is my EBrother, Purple Heart receiptent along with a chest full of other metals.  My EBrother (Richard) crawled out of a helicopter crash 3 times, twice as the only survivor concluding 3 tours of Vietnam.  Iddee, as a veteran yourself of Vietnam I thought it good for you to know.  Capt44 was the machine gunner in the sky protecting our heros on the ground.  Bless you both for risking your lives maintaining my freedom that I took for granted.
Blessings

[iddee]

Thanks for that, Van.
I thought, from his screen name, that he was the captain I served with in 'nam in the 44th preventive medical unit, thus Capt. 44.

[yes2matt]

Update:

No word from the inspector yet. I don't like when phone calls take four days to be returned and appointments break with no communication. I'm sure the inspector is busy with full-size operations but still...

No particular strong smell, but maybe a faint whiff of funk.

The move and feed for a week didn't help by the looks of it. Three half-frames of broodnest, with half the brood gone.

So I'm thinking here are my options:
> pursue the medication path, really for my own education, since it's a three frame colony, not worth a durn. Do I get a 'script from the inspector?
> leave em alone, keep them on feed, see what happens. Maybe they'll pull out, maybe they'll get the other colonies sick too.
> put them all in the freezer right now.
> ??

Thanks for all the help so far. I'm so glad I moved my other bees to another yard. They're doing great!

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[beepro]

When I lose 20 good drawn frames with cap broods and larvae all diseased, I started the  antibiotic session for
curing EFB using online diagnosis infos.  Back then I can get the medicine from the bee store downtown.   It is better than waiting or having the
disease spread across my other healthy hives.   It is only 3 framers so how much you got to lose?

[iddee]

Check your pm's.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#efb

A brood break is very effective.  A new queen usually helps as well.

[yes2matt]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#efb

A brood break is very effective.  A new queen usually helps as well.

After talking to Wally on the phone and reading your page, I'll add two options to the list.
> Take a good frame of brood and a frame of stores from a healthy colony, put it in a new box. Shake all the adult bees and the Q  from the sick colony into the new box. All the frames from the sick colony go in the freezer.
> Pull the Q only to a little split from a healthy colony. Let the sick colony bee until all brood is emerged. Maybe they'll raise a new Q too; if not no problem just recombine. If I do this, how long do they need to remain broodless?

Thanks everybody!!

[eltalia]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#efb

A brood break is very effective.  A new queen usually helps as well.

After talking to Wally on the phone and reading your page, I'll add two options to the list.
> Take a good frame of brood and a frame of stores from a healthy colony, put it in a new box. Shake all the adult bees and the Q  from the sick colony into the new box. All the frames from the sick colony go in the freezer.
> Pull the Q only to a little split from a healthy colony. Let the sick colony bee until all brood is emerged. Maybe they'll raise a new Q too; if not no problem just recombine. If I do this, how long do they need to remain broodless?

Thanks everybody!!

That answer will be interesting.

Would you be able to compile a rough estimate of cost when success is
determined, and post the breakdown?
I ask as I have read a number of times elsewhere the exercise in rescue
owns a price tag, in both real dollars and time.
As I have yet to attempt to recover any brood disease the info may sway
 future decisions. Thanks.

Bill

[yes2matt]

Sure Bill:
Current sunk costs, including original split:
Hours:
0.75 inspection/manipulation
1.0 direct messages/calls
2.5ish reading and research

Materials:
1 lb sugar
Lost 1/2 frame of drawn comb to wax moths
Not sure how to account for lost use/opportunity cost of 4 drawn comb frames x  13 weeks.

You can see the proposed manipulations above, .25 hrs max unless I've got a kid along. And Terrabee is $7 or $8.

Should I account future reporting as R/R or as I/M?  :)


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[Troutdog]

Hi Matt
Divining rods wont help at this point.

Efb has taken on a few new twists in its character there are 4 flavors of it.
I do not understand why you did not send sample to beltsville lab.
Alternatively, there is a 12 dollar test kit for efb that is pretty good just make sure of expiration date.

Treatment feed feed feed
I reccomend the super DFM direct fed microbial formula.
As you have a severe issue with royal jelly production you might use Caspian Solution to increase pollen intake.
6 months is way too long for this to be addressed now, so I would requeen if the above does not work. If you use antibiotics use the Caspian for greater efficacy.
You do not need antibiotics to treat efb. Probiotics work wonders.
Scrape out all infected comb areas, and sprinkle DFM on the scraped areas. The dfm will take a brood cycle to show results but you can see it working with increased royal jelly in larvae.
Luck
Tom



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