Queen rearing: problem and finally solved.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

I will explain the situation and finally the answer.  Before you read the last paragraph with the answer please consider how you would attempt to solve.  See what you come up with to solve, then go ahead and read the last paragraph.

The problem: the nurse bees are not accepting my grafted larva, they only build 1-4 queen cells out of 18 grafts.  Last year, I grafted and obtained 75% success rate in May.  So I am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.  Three attempts at grafting and basically 3 failures.

I am using larva that is 24 hours in age, tiny little things 1/2 the size of this letter c, and standard grafting procedures: moist cloth to prevent drying,  new store bought royal jelly, JZBZ tool, clean environment, larva upright never flipped, jewelers magnify or stereo microscope:::present grafting frame for bees to polish for 24 hrs prior to grafting.... all the normal stuff that worked great last year using cloak board method for queen rearing.

So I tried different things.
1.  fresh royal jelly.
2.  used a heating pad under the frame with eggs due to cold office where I graft.
3.  Warm cloth over the larva to prevent drying.
4.  Slightly different age larva
5.  Different amounts of royal jelly
6.  Added dilute royal jelly in a ring around pure royal jelly
7.  I added approx 6,000 nurse bees.
8.  Checked for eggs or any sign of a queen

Ok did you think what you might try to solve this dilemma.


Finally after exhausting all my possibilities I tried using a different hive, and BINGO success, I now have 12 queen cells out of 18 grafts.

Upon disassembly of the original cloaked hive, the only thing that stood out to me was HONEY.  The original cloaked hive that would not accept my grafts was full of honey, the bees must have added 50 pounds of honey during my grafting attempts.  I don?t know if Honey was reason for rejecting my grafts, I just though I would mention the only unusual observation.

Blessings

[cao]

I haven't grafted queen cells yet(been on my to do list for a couple of years).  I have noticed that when you remove a queen from a hive and they have a time when they don't have brood to raise the nurse bees graduate early and the hive can really pack on the honey.  Maybe that was what was happening.

[BeeMaster2]

Van,
I am no expert but did you make sure there were 2 frames of capped brood that were close to hatching out in the Nuc. How packed was the hive with 6000 bees. It needs to bee almost too tight to bee able to close up.
Jim

[iddee]

Doesn't sound like he was moving frames of open brood up into the graft area.

""1.5.    Make sure some frames of uncapped brood are in the upper box""

https://honeybeesuite.com/using-the-cloake-board-method-to-raise-queens/

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Thanks Cao, Master Jim, Id:  I deliberately did not state all the steps involved in cloak board rearing.  To much info, yes I did add brood, no eggs or young larva to make queen cells next to queen larva frame, I added 6,000 nurse bees after the first failed attempt,  a capped full frame, in addition to a cramed full hive , I made sure there was plenty of food, outside frames.  I understand the hive, 2 deeps, must be full of nurse bees.  I started with queen right cloaked starter, and finished in queen right with queen excluded.

Oh I see, ID, my third attempt, my mistake as you pointed out, larva frames had hatch out so I?ll bet the nurse bees went below with the queen and larva.  Now why didn?t think of that.   Thinks Buddy!!!

Your {Cao, Jim, Id}critiques are most appreciated.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Doesn't sound like he was moving frames of open brood up into the graft area.

""1.5.    Make sure some frames of uncapped brood are in the upper box""

https://honeybeesuite.com/using-the-cloake-board-method-to-raise-queens/

That is it, only the first graft did I have the brood frames next to queen larva.... the brood hatched and I did not renew brood frames.

[Michael Bush]

I have the best luck with a starter/swarm box:
https://www.betterbee.com/queen-rearing-supplies/SB1.asp

Put wet sponges on the bottom.  Put three frames of nectar/pollen in the box.  Shake in nurse bees from brood comb until it's overflowing with bees.  If you think the larvae you want to graft from is low on royal jelly, put it in the starter for an hour and then pull it out and graft.  The larvae will now be swimming in royal jelly.  Use a chinese grafting tool so you get some royal jelly with the larvae.  Put the cells in the starter box.  These nurse bees are queenless and crowded and full of royal jelly at this point.  Keep the starter in the shade.  48 hours later put the cells in the finisher.

The four rules of a cell starter:

1) queenless
2) crowded with nurse bees
3) really crowded with nurse bees
4) overflowing with nurse bees

Did I mention it should be crowded?

[little john]

Interesting about the honey - I'd never have guessed that.  I was thinking along the lines of maybe not enough pollen (in the form of bee bread).

What I find helps to get a 'good take' is to have one or more open brood combs present (in one of a pair of nuc boxes I use above a divided Cloake Board, which amplifies the concentration of foragers) in order to pull up as many nurse bees as possible, and to get them into feeding mode.  Then - on the day - insert the slide, remove those brood combs, shaking-off nurse bees back into the nuc box (in my case), and then inserting the queen-cell frames.  The nurse bees then have nothing to feed, except those q/cells.
The removed brood combs are 'bread and breakfasted' in a nearby support hive, and returned once the q/cells have been started.
LJ