Starting over again for the fourth time

[FlexMedia.tv]

Well I guess I'm a senior now with beekeeping, going into my 4th year. My bees die every year and never make it through the Winter. I always start off with two hives from package bees. I have purchased them from Kelleys, Dadant, (I think I got some from Brushy Mountain or another place) and from the local club I belong to. The install usually goes good. They are in partial shade, facing South over a lake that is gradual. I have never seen a drowned bee. The first year I just let them do what they wanted so they wanted to swarm them got wax moths. I didn't wrap them so they froze. I wrapped the other years and they died. I feed throughout the year with sugar water. I leave the honey for them for the winter and they don't eat it. This last year I fed them fondant for the first time. They didn't touch it. All of them swarm no matter what I do. I caught one of my swarms, placed it in a new hive and they all left. They HATED those black plastic frames. For the first time last year one of my hives caught the V mites with the messed up wings and everything. Wax moths and bad smell too. Not giving up! But, I am going to treat for diseases this year.

I'll post some pictures later but I'm starting with two fresh from a package when it gets here. I froze all the honey frames and cleaned up all the boxes.  Should I start with all new frames in the brood boxes or use a few old frames with drawn comb from last year? I've done both in the past.

[FlexMedia.tv]

Well I guess I'm a senior now with beekeeping, going into my 4th year. My bees die every year and never make it through the Winter. I always start off with two hives from package bees. I have purchased them from Kelleys, Dadant, (I think I got some from Brushy Mountain or another place) and from the local club I belong to. The install usually goes good. They are in partial shade, facing South over a lake that is gradual. I have never seen a drowned bee. The first year I just let them do what they wanted so they wanted to swarm them got wax moths. I didn't wrap them so they froze. I wrapped the other years and they died. I feed throughout the year with sugar water. I leave the honey for them for the winter and they don't eat it. This last year I fed them fondant for the first time. They didn't touch it. All of them swarm no matter what I do. I caught one of my swarms, placed it in a new hive and they all left. They HATED those black plastic frames. For the first time last year one of my hives caught the V mites with the messed up wings and everything. Wax moths and bad smell too. Not giving up! But, I am going to treat for diseases this year.

I'll post some pictures later but I'm starting with two fresh from a package when it gets here. I froze all the honey frames and cleaned up all the boxes.  Should I start with all new frames in the brood boxes or use a few old frames with drawn comb from last year? I've done both in the past.

Some of the combs look like this



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LizzieBee]

It's great that you aren't giving up. I'm a beginner so I can't answer all your questions. What type of bees have you been getting? From my research Carniolan bees do well in cold weather. That's the type I got a week ago on Saturday.

LizzieBee

[eltalia]

Well I guess I'm a senior now with beekeeping, going into my 4th year. My bees die every year and
never make it through the Winter.
(edit)

Some of the combs look like this



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

G'day... welcome back Trooper :-))
Soooo... 100% loss?
Any clues in the debris...?...I recall there were moisture troubles
in at least one colony?

Bill

[cao]

I'm glad you haven't given up. 

I would say if you got them, use them.  With that honey and drawn frames, you shouldn't have to feed your packages much.

[beepro]

Nope, into my 6th year of beekeeping I'm still consider a newbie.  This is because I have not learn all and experimented all on this hobby.  As long as I'm still learning and not feel comfortable in keeping the bees alive without much intervention then I'm a newbie. 
For your situation I would advise on doing some swarm control to keep the mites to a minimum.  To do this take a hive that is about to swarm and brush off all the attaching bees from the cap brood frames into the original hive.  Original hive will be fill with the drawn frames without the cap broods. Then donate the cap brood frames into another active hive.  This will remove 90% of the mites from the original hive. 
In the original hive you will have drawn comb to replace the cap brood frames taken away.  Now with the original queen and her bees in place they will restart the colony with new broods in the drawn comb.  This will take the mites out of the hive and stop the swarming in the process.  The queen will lay new eggs to replenish this colony.  If you want a 100% mite free colony then take 1 frame of developing brood about to be cap from another colony without the attaching bees into this hive.  All the remaining free running mites will go into these cap broods within a few day.  Doing so will remove many of the mites from the hive.  Repeat this for other hives as well.  Also do a mite check on every bee emergence cycle to give you an idea of the infestation.
When these mite free hives are booming then graft queens from them.  Repeat this process for at least 2-3 generation.  That means once the new queens are laying choose the one with the most solid laying pattern to graft.  Repeat this from the grand daughter queen to source the local bees genetics.  Better than the package queens that are treated most of the time.  So it does not matter where you source the original package bees from just graft at your location to get the local bees genetics.  Without this your package bees will not survive that well in the winter time.  Only the local bees can survive your cold  and snowy winter!
During the winter time pack this hive with lots of new winter bees to ensure their winter survival.  Give them plenty of food like sugar bricks and high protein patty subs for the winter.  Put wind proof material around the hive in the winter time.  Also try to source the tf queens or survival queens for genetic diversity on your bee yard.
For future expansion you can also use some new drawn comb so add some for them to draw out also.

[Acebird]

Stop with the packages ... I am not saying you can't be successful with packages but you have tried 3 times.  Find someone in MI close by (that is successful) where you can buy a proper nuc.  No point in buying more than one until you can get it through a full year and then split it the next.  Through out the dang sugar water.  If the bees need to be fed then you don't have enough forage in your area to sustain bees.
By the looks of those three frames the bees starved, probably from too much feeding.

[little john]

Good to hear you're not giving up.  I'd also suggest that you source bees in one or two locally-produced nucs rather than packages. 

Not being from your country I had to look up Michigan on a map of the US ...
In view of how far north you are, I'd make two further suggestions: firstly, those frames look very shallow compared with what I use (zero winter losses, but with a very different climate) - it might be worth fitting at least one box with deep, or even jumbo-depth frames(*) as well as bags of insulation around and on top of your hives.
Secondly - and more importantly - to seek advice from beekeepers who also operate at your latitude.  I'm guessing that beekeeping is pretty challenging in your region and appropriate local experience would be invaluable.

Very best of luck for the coming season.
LJ

(*) You can still use the same boxes - simply make an eke of the right height to fit underneath them.

[Bush_84]

Why are your bees swarming?  If your bees really are swarming every year then I?d remedy that first. A first year hive should not be swarming unless something goes wrong.

[Acebird]

A first year hive should not be swarming unless something goes wrong.

I agree with this which is why he doesn't need to buy more than one hive to solve the problem.  He does need to solve the problem though.  I suspect he is feeding at the wrong time or for the wrong reason which encourages brood rearing.  The hive gets jammed and they go.  But that is just a guess.

[billdean]

Flex..... you can get your nuc's or packages here. They have training and will teach you how to manage your hives. I have rarely, if at all had a problem getting package from them to over winter here in Michigan. Carniolan is what I would get.
https://mailchi.mp/turtlebeefarms/honeybees-wow-3-lb-packages-99-up?e=3efdd6a172

[tycrnp]

I bought my 1st package from Waldo Bees, and they did great.  Although I admit my winter is MUCH milder than yours, they probably have hearty bees up in your neck of the woods.
http://www.waldobees.com/

[Oldbeavo]

I am a long way away from Michigan, but for your location you need to do a " bee feed"/ botanical audit of what flowers when, does it yield pollen and nectar or just one or the other.
In Spring when you get your bees, prefer a Nuc, what is flowering then?, is there a feed supply for your hive to grow on?
Does any one else have bees close to you? Ask them for advice on what flowers when.
If no-one has bees in your area, is it a sign of being a tough area for bees.
If Winter is tough , look a polystyrene hive or make some insulation for them.

[Robo]

Although I agree with most of the previous comments,  I will just add if you have not been treating for varroa mites, that is your biggest problem.   Without addressing that,  all the other recommendation will be for not.

[Acebird]

Mites don't cause swarming or starvation.  If he is buying mite bombs he needs to find another supplier.

[Robo]

Mites don't cause swarming or starvation.  If he is buying mite bombs he needs to find another supplier.

Mites DO cause losses.

First of all, swarming doesn't cause wax moths that the OP described.  Secondly,  the OP mentions catching one swarm.  Did the OP see the others actually swarm or just assume?

I have seen very similar results from beginners who did not treat.   Rusty has a very nice write-up -> http://honeybeesuite.com/did-they-abscond-or-die-from-varroa/

Like Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding.  For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm,  nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms.  "Absconding" was unheard of around here until a few years ago when this phenomena started to happen.

It seems to happen to those with no, or hokey, treatment plans.

Swarming does not cause winter loss,  and from looking at his frames with honey and the fact that he said he fed them I doubt it was starvation.  Seems to me that he has bought from 3 different well know supplies so the issue is more than the source of his bees.

I would be hard pressed not to recommend varroa treatment for a beginner.

OP can do what he chooses, but unless he address varroa he is just chasing symptoms.

[capt44]

I treat my hives here in Central Arkansas in early March and Mid September with Oxylic Acid Vapor, 2 treatments 10 days apart.
Bees not treated will usually get weak then the Wax Moths move in and finish them off.
I don't know if ya'll have a Small Hive Beetle problem in Michigan but we sure do down here.

[moebees]

Like Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding.  For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm,  nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms

Absconding is not swarming. They do not land and form a cluster. They just take off and nobody ever sees where they go.

[Robo]

Like Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding.  For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm,  nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms

Absconding is not swarming. They do not land and form a cluster. They just take off and nobody ever sees where they go.

I use the term swarm when part of a colony leaves for a new home.   I use the term abscond when all the bees leave for a new home.

If I get your definitions,  it doesn't matter if partial or all the bees leave, it just comes down to if we see where they go?

What do you call it when a hived swarm decides not to stay and takes off?

[moebees]

Like Rusty, I don't buy into the absconding.  For all the folks that have had this issues I have not heard of one actually seeing or finding the swarm,  nor have I had any reports of late fall swarms

Absconding is not swarming. They do not land and form a cluster. They just take off and nobody ever sees where they go.

I use the term swarm when part of a colony leaves for a new home.   I use the term abscond when all the bees leave for a new home.

If I get your definitions,  it doesn't matter if partial or all the bees leave, it just comes down to if we see where they go?

What do you call it when a hived swarm decides not to stay and takes off?

I agree.  When all the bees (or essentially all the bees) leave it is absconding and when a portion leaves with the queen it is a swarm.  I was addressing what you said in the quote above.  You first said "I don't buy into the absconding".  Implying that you do not think it occurs or that it is not something different from swarming because you go one to mention the lack of reports of fall swarms.  My point is, that is not evidence that absconding is not occurring.  Absconding behavior is totally different from swarming behavior. 

I have not personally witnessed an abscond leave a hive but Michael Palmer has and he says they just take off and you have no idea where they went.  You know a swarm travels rather slowly and if you are fit enough you can actually jog along under it.

 But I also know that I have had it happen.  I had a hive last fall that was booming with bees.  I actually made the comment to a couple of people that if it was May they would swarm but it was late October.  A week later I went to inspect and they hive was empty except for a couple dozen robbers.  They certainly didn't dwindle. There wasn't enough time.  There were no queen cells built as if they were swarming and they all left.  Not just a portion.  So I did not see them leave but the only explanation for the evidence is that they absconded.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying above but that is why I responded as I did.