Installing Package Question: Spraying Foundationless Frames with Syrup

[The15thMember]

I have been doing research on installing packages, and I see some people spraying their foundation with sugar water when installing a package.  I'm going to be foundationless, but since I have all new woodenware, I was wondering, could I just spray the frames themselves with sugar syrup?  My idea was that, since I have all new equipment, perhaps this would make it more appealing to them. 

[iddee]

It doesn't matter. If you start a package on all foundationless, you will be cutting all the comb out anyway. They will run one comb across 4 or 5 frames and totally fill the box with non-removable combs. If you want to go foundationless, start with foundation, then switch out one frame at a time so they keep drawing them straight.

[Dallasbeek]

Iddee, why do they build cross comb on foundationless  Lang frames, but generally build on top bar hive frames without building cross combs?  (So I read -- I've never used a TBH yet, so just going by what I've read.)

[iddee]

I don't live in Kenya or Tanzania, so I know nothing about TBH, but I would guess the keep cuts and adjusts the first few combs until he gets them on the right track.

Also, I think I have heard the top bars are cut into a point and coated with wax to get them started straight.

[Bush_84]

I?ve kept warre, tbh, and Lang. Foundationless is foundationless. I took the unorthodox of cutting out comb from a nuc to start my beekeeping adventure. IMO starting foundationless from scratch is the hardest part of going foundationless. Once you get a straight comb you can work them to continue to get straight comb.

[BeeMaster2]

When I set swarm traps, I put one drawn comb on one side and the rest are empty frames with a waxed wood strip in the top slot. Swarms fill in the frames beautifully. The added wax helps to keep the comb straight.   
Jim

[The15thMember]

Thanks for all the tips on getting started everybody, but I didn't mean I was trying to use the syrup to make them draw straight.  I'm sorry if this was misunderstood; I was just thinking about using it to make the new wood more attractive to them so they wouldn't abscond.  I've read that a brand new hive that smells all of glue and paint is sometimes off-putting to them, so I was just wondering if by spraying the new frames with sugar water, it would make it smell (and taste) more homey to them.   

[Bush_84]

Ya I don?t know if there?s a good way without slum gum or comb. You could potentially screen them in for a few days as long as you ensure their hive is sufficiently ventilated.

[BeeMaster2]

What Bush said plus water or 1:1 sugar water.

[little john]

Thanks for all the tips on getting started everybody, but I didn't mean I was trying to use the syrup to make them draw straight.  I'm sorry if this was misunderstood; I was just thinking about using it to make the new wood more attractive to them so they wouldn't abscond. I've read that a brand new hive that smells all of glue and paint is sometimes off-putting to them, so I was just wondering if by spraying the new frames with sugar water, it would make it smell (and taste) more homey to them. 

Sugar-water doesn't smell of anything.  To make new wood more attractive to bees, simply paint molten wax onto it.   The only part which really matters is the starter strip hanging down from the top bar - if that is wood (and some folk - me included - use wooden popsicle/ lollipop sticks as starter strips), then painting a thin layer of wax onto those can help to get them started a little quicker - but it's not essential.  It appears to provide them with a 'footprint' from which to start building - although the first thing they'll do is chew some off and mix it with propolis before using that mixture for a more secure attachment.  Likewise, it you should use nylon fishing line or bamboo barbecue skewers for comb support - wiping a little molten wax onto these before installing those frames makes their presence more acceptable.

I've never found any problems with 'new wood' smell, or even the smell of a freshly painted box.  Maybe people blame these when their colonies abscond, rather than looking elsewhere for the cause ?
LJ

Forgot to add - the best method for 'anchoring' bees to any box at any time is to place a frame of open brood inside it (if you possess such a frame, of course).

[The15thMember]

Sugar-water doesn't smell of anything.  To make new wood more attractive to bees, simply paint molten wax onto it.   The only part which really matters is the starter strip hanging down from the top bar - if that is wood (and some folk - me included - use wooden popsicle/ lollipop sticks as starter strips), then painting a thin layer of wax onto those can help to get them started a little quicker - but it's not essential.  It appears to provide them with a 'footprint' from which to start building - although the first thing they'll do is chew some off and mix it with propolis before using that mixture for a more secure attachment.  Likewise, it you should use nylon fishing line or bamboo barbecue skewers for comb support - wiping a little molten wax onto these before installing those frames makes their presence more acceptable.

I've never found any problems with 'new wood' smell, or even the smell of a freshly painted box.  Maybe people blame these when their colonies abscond, rather than looking elsewhere for the cause ?
LJ

Forgot to add - the best method for 'anchoring' bees to any box at any time is to place a frame of open brood inside it (if you possess such a frame, of course).

Oh, alright then.  Thanks little john.  I unfortunately do not have a source of brood, or wax for that matter.  I'm trying to do everything I can to prevent absconding.  It would be such a same to spend all this money on them to just have them fly away.  I guess I'll just use a queen includer for the first couple weeks or so as a precaution.         

[iddee]

In over 40 years of beekeeping, the nearest I have ever seen to a newly installed package absconding is one moving in with another one next door. Others may have seen something different, but I have not, and have never heard of a package absconding.  Most newbies use new wood for their first packages with no problem.

[Acebird]

Maybe it is constant molestation that results in a injured queen that causes the bees to abandon the hive?

[little john]

Oh, alright then.  Thanks little john.  I unfortunately do not have a source of brood, or wax for that matter.  I'm trying to do everything I can to prevent absconding.  It would be such a same to spend all this money on them to just have them fly away.  I guess I'll just use a queen includer for the first couple weeks or so as a precaution. 

I guessed that was the case - it's always tough starting out without so much as drawn comb ...

There's one thing you could do which involves nothing extra in the way of kit - and that's to install the package into your new box fairly late in the day - say between tea-time and early evening.  Even a colony intent on swarming won't take off so late in the day.  That then gives your package a good 12 hours to initially settle down, and maybe draw a few millimetres of comb before morning.

I bow to Iddee's experience of installing packages - they're not something we know much about over here, as we have a marked preference for nucs. 

Using a Queen 'Includer' for 3 or 4 days may be overkill - but sure, why not ?  They won't come to any harm if they have ventilation and a supply of water (say, in the form of light syrup).  Personally I wouldn't leave one on for more than a week.  At some point you just have to let them fly - and get on with doing what bees do best.

A first colony is an exciting time - and also an anxious one.  Which is perfectly natural - and to be honest I don't think this anxiety business ever completely goes away.  Today I was able to check all my hives after the latest 'weather-bomb', and now have a great feeling of relief.  Which tells me that I must have been anxious, even though not too aware of it.

Seeing colonies flying for the first time after winter always gives me one helluva buzz - but if that should ever stop, then that'll be the day to hang-up my veil.
LJ

[The15thMember]

In over 40 years of beekeeping, the nearest I have ever seen to a newly installed package absconding is one moving in with another one next door. Others may have seen something different, but I have not, and have never heard of a package absconding.  Most newbies use new wood for their first packages with no problem.

Well that makes me feel better.   

I guessed that was the case - it's always tough starting out without so much as drawn comb ...

There's one thing you could do which involves nothing extra in the way of kit - and that's to install the package into your new box fairly late in the day - say between tea-time and early evening.  Even a colony intent on swarming won't take off so late in the day.  That then gives your package a good 12 hours to initially settle down, and maybe draw a few millimetres of comb before morning.

I bow to Iddee's experience of installing packages - they're not something we know much about over here, as we have a marked preference for nucs. 

Using a Queen 'Includer' for 3 or 4 days may be overkill - but sure, why not ?  They won't come to any harm if they have ventilation and a supply of water (say, in the form of light syrup).  Personally I wouldn't leave one on for more than a week.  At some point you just have to let them fly - and get on with doing what bees do best.

A first colony is an exciting time - and also an anxious one.  Which is perfectly natural - and to be honest I don't think this anxiety business ever completely goes away.  Today I was able to check all my hives after the latest 'weather-bomb', and now have a great feeling of relief.  Which tells me that I must have been anxious, even though not too aware of it.

Seeing colonies flying for the first time after winter always gives me one helluva buzz - but if that should ever stop, then that'll be the day to hang-up my veil.
LJ

Thanks for the encouragement, little john.  I really am more excited than nervous about it, I'm just trying to be as prepared as I can.  I'm glad to hear that the afternoon is the best time.  I was already planning on installing them in the afternoon, since I have to drive about 2 hrs. round trip to get them (they aren't being delivered to me).  I also think I'm going to get some of that Honey-B-Healthy to put in my sugar water. 
I'm a little confused about your comments about the queen includer.  Maybe I'm reading into this, but you seem to be implying (based on your mentioning of water and letting them fly at some point) that all the workers are kept in by the queen excluder too.  I figured it wouldn't matter to leave it on for a while, because the workers can get through it.  Do they just not like going through it or something?     

[little john]

I'm a little confused about your comments about the queen includer.  Maybe I'm reading into this, but you seem to be implying (based on your mentioning of water and letting them fly at some point) that all the workers are kept in by the queen excluder too.  I figured it wouldn't matter to leave it on for a while, because the workers can get through it.  Do they just not like going through it or something?     

So sorry - I think that was an example of what's known as 'a Senior Citizen moment' - you mentioned a 'Queen Includer' (a Q/X - but doing exactly the same job) - but for some reason my brain registered steel mesh (aka hardware cloth), which is what some people place over the entrance for a few days when housing swarms and when setting-out nucs (to keep all the bees in, until they've become accustomed to their new home).   Such mesh obviously needs to be removed after a few days - but doesn't apply to a Q/I (Q/X) - well, at least not until drones make their appearance, which shouldn't be for quite a while with a package.

Again - sorry for causing confusion ...
LJ

[The15thMember]

So sorry - I think that was an example of what's known as 'a Senior Citizen moment' - you mentioned a 'Queen Includer' (a Q/X - but doing exactly the same job) - but for some reason my brain registered steel mesh (aka hardware cloth), which is what some people place over the entrance for a few days when housing swarms and when setting-out nucs (to keep all the bees in, until they've become accustomed to their new home).   Such mesh obviously needs to be removed after a few days - but doesn't apply to a Q/I (Q/X) - well, at least not until drones make their appearance, which shouldn't be for quite a while with a package.

Again - sorry for causing confusion ...
LJ

No worries, LJ.  It's all good.