Another little RJ experiment

[beepro]

Hi, All!


It is that time of year again.   Spring is not here officially yet but I can smell the
warmth of an early Spring air already.   Of course, the bees are reacting to it with an unexpected
happiness.   Me too! :) Two weeks of warm weather with no rain in sight.   The almond trees are budding heavily about
to bloom in another 2 weeks or so if this weather holds.

I took this opportunity to run another one of my little bee experiment.  The first one in this season now that I finally got bees.  In this
experiment I injected 5 ml of RJ into a 4 day QC.   From an average cell overnight it became an impressive robust cell after the RJ got injected.
The grub is so large now that it plugged up the entrance of the cell opening while the bees are trying their best to expand and lengthen the QC wall.  I was surprised that the bees had enlarged the cell wall over night.  Will this experiment lead to a better developed and laying queen later on?

You can compare the before pic of an ordinary cell without the extra injected RJ with the after RJ injected QC.  They are not the same QC that I want you
to see the difference what a RJ injected cell will look like afterward.   I've been trying to perform this little experiment for quite some time now.  This time I
got the right equipment to do so using a 1 ml syringe and a small glass capillary tube from the I.I. process.   The injected QC will need another day or 2 before
it is being cap but already full of RJ inside.    It is not dead yet.   I would've injected more RJ if it hasn't plugged up the cell hole first.    What do you think?



Before and after pics:

http://imgbox.com/JGIT8zjl
http://imgbox.com/2oJJJCyv

[eltalia]

"I want you to see the difference what a RJ injected cell will look like afterward...."

errrrrm... but we are not, going to, hey?
Someone is going to tellya... I had to read it more than once to figure
this is no experiment at all.
Buuuut kudos for "having a go"... next time you may well be able to
show us(royal) what you are playing at, thanks :-)

Bill

[beepro]

When I say "experiment" I don't plan to do it only once.  This little experiment can be
repeated on queen rearing time.  I had this idea several seasons ago to try it out just for the experience.
If you don't believe me then go ahead to try some QCs with and
without the RJ injected.   You'll be amazed!   I did.   There will be many more little experiment I want to try out and
perfect it over time.   

[eltalia]

When I say "experiment" I don't plan to do it only once.  This little experiment can be
repeated on queen rearing time.  I had this idea several seasons ago to try it out just for the experience.
If you don't believe me then go ahead to try some QCs with and
without the RJ injected.   You'll be amazed!   I did.   There will be many more little experiment I want to try out and
perfect it over time.

It is not a matter of belief or nonbelief BP my friend, it is more
like getting past what bees do in metamorphing (word?) a fertile(?)
egg into which caste.
Still... you might just create the SUPERbee in which case we can
all help out in designing the cape, or making special hats for buyers??
Seriously... some days....

Bill

[little john]

In this experiment I injected 5 ml of RJ into a 4 day QC.   From an average cell overnight it became an impressive robust cell after the RJ got injected. The grub is so large now that it plugged up the entrance of the cell opening while the bees are trying their best to expand and lengthen the QC wall.  I was surprised that the bees had enlarged the cell wall over night.  Will this experiment lead to a better developed and laying queen later on?
 
 I would've injected more RJ if it hasn't plugged up the cell hole first.    What do you think?

Again - it sounds to me as if someone has caught the "More and More" and "Faster and Faster" disease ...

Where shall I start ... ?

You've injected a truly massive quantity of Royal Jelly into a queen cell and insodoing have almost forced the developing grub out through the cell mouth.  You have assumed (i.e. without checking) that this has created a larger grub.  The bees have then proceeded to enlarge the cell in order to accommodate (what they see as) this unnecessary and unwelcomed addition.

Because you now observe a larger cell, you're assuming that there must be a larger grub inside, which will thus result in a larger queen bee emerging.  What is far more likely is that there is a standard-sized queen being developed in there, with a massive blob of unused Royal Jelly situated at the cell top.

Is it - generally speaking - not better to report the results of experiments after they've been conducted, and when there are some definite results to demonstrate ?
LJ

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Hello Berpro, glad to see you have bees and just as important, warm weather with blooms on the way.  That thought of massive feeding a queen royal jelly is an interesting one.  Keep thinking, fella, one day you are liable to stumble on a good one.  Creativity is a good thing.  In the future, consider using the word IDEA instead of experiment.  The word experiment defaults to using controls, both positive and negative with a minimum of 3 trials with repeatable, predictable results.

I find as I age, my own creativity goes down,,, just like my checking account after retirement :) so I appreciate your ideas.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Beepro, not berpro, my autocorrect is sometimes a pain.

[Acebird]

Van you can modify the post.

[beepro]

To combat the boredom of retirement our creativity need to go up not down.  Turn back your internal clock when you're still a
4 y.o. kid.   Ask lots of questions and find your answers.  As we're in the beginning of another good bee year with queen rearing
days just around the corner, there is no time to record the final result.   Through out the bee seasons you will see many more of my
little bee ideas and trial runs.  If you would like to repeat it in your location then you can also contribute to my findings otherwise I'll
carry on with the findings.

The queen may not be the biggest because of genetics or other factors.  But it makes me feel good that the extra RJ is there to
make one well fed queen.  There were 7 other QCs that look like the before pic.   Those when I took out the grub had their heads on
the bottom of the cell.   That is not good indicating an under nourished grub.   They will develop into queens alright but not at the
potential of a well fed developed queen with extra RJ at the bottom of the cell after the queen emerged.

I'm going for well fed queens with the potential to develop into great laying and long lived queens.   This can only be accomplish with feeding
extra RJ while it is developing.  You are right that I've injected more RJ than needed this time.   As long as she is still feeding there is still a chance that
it will develop into a great laying queen.   Next time I will adjust my RJ quantity to 2.5 ml each time beginning from day 3.   

If I want to develop a superQueen then it will be the Italians mite mauling bees X with the tf Cordovan queens.   Extra RJ away!

[eltalia]

@beepro
"To combat the boredom of retirement our creativity need to go up not down. "

I wont presume to 'speak' for all as does the above appear to, I will
however put the thought everyone leaving the "9 to 5 grind"  (permanently)
has choices, not a set path as "boredom" implies.
What is very true in your statement BP is the opportunity to develop or expand
creativity. I retired early, age 55 or so, to soon discover tbat whilst
I was now free to choose whatever pursuits from 9 to 5 - I was wholly
engaged more than 12hours every day... that's seven days a week, not five.
Today I lament the awareness I simply will not have enough time left breathing
 to accomplish many important to me developed ideas.
I have a small scale corn planter I hope to market.
There is a "best seller" in the pipeline. Actually composed by someone
who can write, the work is long hours/days waiting as it is the Internet being
used for communication.
Then there is my hope for a revolutionary "backyard beehive"... a project
I cannot hope to see the fruition of as any degree of takeup hinges solely
on the individual understanding their backyard envirionment.
That could take some time.
Sooo.. it is the case I wake each day only too pleased to find I am still
breathing with yet another exciting 12hours in front of me. Tired is the
boring part of my day as I realise "rest" whilst awake is necessary. Yet I
find that locally the options for those hours are very limited- I loathe
commercial TV and Internet connectivity denies "crusing the Net" so
often it is I retire to the bed early, bored.

All that to say I would encourage your own creativity whilst failing to see
where you believe you are going with it, as I previously put in an earlier
post. Nobody can know for sure you might just stumble onto some twist to
beekeeping long overlooked. One could only wish you luck in those
endeavours. After all it sure beats bemoaning the lack of honey "harvests" or
failed retail efforts..heh

For what it is worth BP I could not get anything from your posted images
hence my earlier comments. As others have already put, for your own
final evaluation it is important to acurately record each level of a developing
concept. Nobody can read minds.

Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Hey Bill, just a note, I open the links, pic by Beepro without problems.  Queen cells are oblivious, focus good, only problems is so many beautiful bees covering queen cells.  Agreed, after I retired, like yourself, Bill, I find I am so busy, not enough time in the day.  Also my engine does not run quite as smooth, kinda like running on 7 cylinders on my V8 body :) I enjoy the bees, that is what matters.

Agreed, creatively diminishes with age for most of us, just look at music composers, so many greats like Eltonn John that slow with age.

Beepro, Thanks for the kind words of encouragement, I will take your words to heart, ?think like a kid.?  Good advise.
Blessings

[little john]

It may be relevant to this thread that the size of queen bees appears to be unrelated to queen cell length.

The mean length of sealed queen cell was found to be 26.60  +/- 0.16 mm in queenright colonies, while the same values were measured as 31.00  +/- 0.13 mm in queenless colonies (t = 8.24, p < 0.001).  [But ...] the emergence weight was 202.19  +/- 8.25 mg in queenright colonies and 197.34  +/- 7.44 mg in queenless colonies.

These results show that queenless colonies build longer cells compared to queenright colonies. Wilkinson and Brown (2002) reported the length of queen cell in queenless and queenright colonies as 30.82 and 26.70 mm, respectively, which are in agreement with the present findings.

MASS REARING OF QUEEN BEES, APIS MELLIFERA L. (HYM:APIDAE) FOR BEE COLONY DEVELOPMENT RAISED UNDER THE TEMPERATE CONDITIONS OF KASHMIR, 2013

It can therefore be seen that the emergence weight of the virgin queen from the longer queen cell is more-or-less equal to (or perhaps slightly less) than that from the shorter queen cell.  Which is somewhat counter-intuitive.
LJ

[eltalia]

Van wrote in part;
"I open the links, pic by Beepro without problems.  Queen cells are oblivious, focus good, only
problems is so many beautiful bees covering queen cells. "

Indeed there is my take on it also, so when such is the record there
then is no record. Compare the information to that provided by @tjc1
recently on colony weights to see the difference in value to the reader/researcher.

I cannot agree those creative people "lose it" with aging, in fact I would
argue the oposite in saying creativity ramps up until the point is reached
where it becomes rambling thoughts which when uttered are not seen by
others as creative at all.  That path is usually the way of not being able to
do  - in aging - and so relying on others to facilitate the larger stuff, like
fabricate a chassis for a corn planter :-)))

Feeding queen cell larvae royal jelly boosters would not come under that
measure of "hard to do"... at any age.

Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Good info LJ.  I have not studied queen cell size.  I have studied queen weight, 200 mg plus is optimal.  There is a relationship between weight and number of eggs layed in the 200 - 230 mg of mated healthy queens.  A lot of average healthy queens were just under the 200mg.

I realize the average beek does not weigh their queens rather most, myself included note the size of the abdomens.  This provides valuable information, such as a queen preparing to swarm will lose weight, or better stated, the abdomen shrinks, absence of eggs and so on.

I know of one queen breeder in Utah that charges a $10.00 premium for queens in the 200 - 230 mg range, again, not weighted, rather eye site of larger than normal abdomen.
Blessings

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

{I cannot agree those creative people "lose it" with aging, in fact I would}

Bill, considering you my friend, I agree, you are most creative.  You, and many on the forum, be like wine, improving with age.    However, for me, well not so creative now a days, compared to my younger days, no complaints, none.  An oak I am, reaching for the sky, but tremble at lighting and fire that I used to see with amazement and wonder.
Blessings

[eltalia]

"However, for me, well not so creative now a days, ...."

Can you weld mild steel Van, tig or arc would do.. 'cos even on 7 cylinders
I am sure your production of my corn planter subchassis would beat
my thonking about it, anyday  .. heh;-)

Bill

[little john]

Good info LJ.  I have not studied queen cell size.  I have studied queen weight, 200 mg plus is optimal.  There is a relationship between weight and number of eggs layed in the 200 - 230 mg of mated healthy queens.  A lot of average healthy queens were just under the 200mg.

Hi Van - I've only just realised that the 'deviation from the mean' figures (+/-) had been replaced by a question mark - I guess because one special character was being used to display '+/-', so I've just edited that quote to make it readable.
I came across that info whilst looking for data on queen cell internal volume - which proved a fruitless search.  Strange, because that has to be a lot easier to measure than length or diameter - and, I would have thought - a lot more relevant ?
LJ

[beepro]

This is an interesting experiment to be repeated.  Injecting extra RJ into the
developing QC on the 4th day will make the grub grow too fast.   This will cause the grub to
be rejected because the bees cannot build up the cell wall that fast.  The grub can grow to 3x in
size just over night.   Two cells got rejected because the grubs grew too fast!

I don't know what RJ I've bought.  It might be infused with growth hormones or what?   This might be the
reason or over concentrated RJ to make the grub grow too fast.   Next time I'll start injecting RJ on a 2nd day
cell vs. a 3rd day cell.   Still the virgin queen came out o.k. with 7 abdomen sections instead of your normal 6.  I'm
satisfy with her outcome.  Now I have to wait another week to see if she will take her mating flight.   Weather forecast will
be in the low 70s.   Not bad for an early Jan. split.

http://imgbox.com/ywLvuUcK

[beepro]

An update:


So here she is, folks.  One big fat laying newly mated (winter or Spring?)
queen early in the season. Found her and the new eggs 2 days ago in the newly
split nuc hive.  Only 4 frame of bees that was a fairly strong split. 

The weather in the past weeks was in the constant mid-60s.  After this queen
emerged I manage my urges to not disturb it that much.  This will allow the queen to
harden up and then take her mating flights.  I have no idea what color bees I will
get from this queen as this is my first time doing split this early in the season.
Since this is a local raised queen I'm going to take more grafts after a good evaluation of this colony later on.  So far the eggs pattern is
fairly solid.  Somehow I believe that a well fed queen will end up a good laying queen.  This is because her genetic potential has been beef up to
the max with more RJ feeding. 

So a visit to the local Russian beekeeper has shown me that it is possible to make split this early.  I don't have to wait after the almond blooms to make splits.  It is still frosty in the night time with daily temp in the mid-60s.  How a queen able to mate at this temp is still a mystery to me.  Still, I'm happy to have another split just in time for my fruit trees blooming.  Are we still in the winter time?


Here she is:

http://imgbox.com/JUqZ3Ri9

[BeeMaster2]

Beepro,
Are you sure that queen is mated? The bees are walking on her. I have never seen a bees on a mated queen in my observation hive. They also do not crowd her like these bees are doing. She also does not have a retinue.
Jim

[BeeMaster2]

The only time I have seen bees acting like this around a laying queen was in my first bought Nuc that had a queen with DWV that had never been able to fly and was a drone laying queen.
Sorry for the possible bad news.
Jim

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

(The bees are walking on her.)
Jim, good morning, I have seen queens that I call shy, runners, that would try to hide under bees, walk under bees, constantly moving.  Maybe the queen is reacting to the close exposure to the camera.

Beepro, stunning color and clarity of pics, nice loooking queen.
Blessings

[eltalia]

@beepro wrote:
". Found her and the new eggs 2 days ago"

reminds me of a glowing gold hardtop Cadiliac all were ogling
at  classic car show I lunched at once, a long time ago.
Well done fella...keeps us updated on her lay.

Bill

[beepro]

An update:


Here is a pic of the cap broods.  http://imgbox.com/4ks1pwKM   Not a bad pattern either.
A newly laying queen is still trying to establish herself in the colony.  Perhaps her queen scent is
not that strong yet.   Right now she is fully established with eggs on all frames.  She's in a 5 frame nuc
hive with lots of worker and young nurse bees.     

This morning the outside temp is around 65F.   After seeing all the eggs are are laid on the frames I added another
drawn frame into this hive.  Right now I have zero mite because the cap broods without the attaching bees got moved to
another nuc hive.    The other nuc hive also has no mite. 

[eltalia]

Need to see the whole of the frame side to make an evaluation BP, but eggs on all frames
 sounds like she is kicking goals (touchdowns).

Bill

[beepro]

Thanks.   I will make another evaluation after the other 3 frames are full of
cap broods in a week or 2.   I will also continue with the extra RJ injection in QCs when queen
rearing days are in full swing this season.   Mother nature is still not too cooperating with the latest
arctic chills and rains.  It is going to be another fun bee season!

[eltalia]

Thanks.   I will make another evaluation after the other 3 frames are full of
cap broods in a week or 2.   I will also continue with the extra RJ injection in QCs when queen
rearing days are in full swing this season.   Mother nature is still not too cooperating with the latest
arctic chills and rains.  It is going to be another fun bee season!

Yep, some may rue going early... from what I am reading/seeing of "the change". Cheers.

Bill

[beepro]

I have since moved this new laying queen into another nuc box in the virgin hive.  A half laundry net bag is use to separate them.
And new bees from this queen are emerging everyday now.   All are worker bees.  They have the distinguish half gray bottom and half yellow top
marking.  This nuc hive now has 6 QCs in development.   They will be receiving extra RJ injection also.   I like to see how large
the cells and queens can be later on.   I still believe that the extra RJ will benefit these cells.