Internal regulation in a winter nuc hive

[beepro]

Hi, All!


In an effort to save a small 2 frames nuc hive over this winter, I've added supplement heat to my current set up.   Without this supplement heat at the most critical time a late winter arctic chills here will ditch them in for sure. Such a dwindling nuc hive will not stand a chance of surviving.  My net research showed that a winter cluster prefer their internal hive temp. around 85F when brood less and with broods around 93F.   This also correspond with my hive observation so far.
If the internal brood nest temp. warm up too much then the bees will expand which will allow more air flow to cool down the brood nest.   

In the top empty nuc box I have a small 100 watt ceramic light bulb.  The bottom box where all the nectar/pollen frames are at, I have 2, 10 watt small animal heat pads next to the edge of the box wall on either side.  They still have small patches of cap broods and eggs in the middle nuc box.  The queen still continue to lay with flying weather in the low 60s at day time.  Foragers are still flying and collecting from the late blooming Loquat flowers providing both nectar and pollen.

It is now almost a month since using the supplement heat set up.  Even though we're in zone 9, the nightly winter temp. will dip in to low 40s at times.  This will give them the chilled brood if there aren't enough bees to cover the broods.  Foragers are still dying by the day but there are the newly emerged young bees that will replace them.   In order to measure the inside hive temp throughout this winter, I have 2 probes on at all time.  One measure the inside brood nest temp while the second probe measure the hive temp in the top box next to the 100 watt bulb connected to a temp. controller.   
When it was warmer 3 weeks ago, I set the brood nest temp. at LB = 83F and UB = 85F.  Now as mid-Autumn approaches, the night time temp is in the low 40s.  Tonight's hive temp reading is at 83.4F and brood nest temp at 93.3F.  Seeing that the brood nest temp is around 93F I've raised the controller temp at LB = 85.5F and UB = 87F.

I still see some bees next to the light bulb screen warming themselves up tonight.  Maybe this temp. setting is still too low.
As you can see, even with the controller temp up a bit it is nowhere near the 93F brood nest temperature inside. 

My question is should I raise the controller temp. even more say 90F?  What is the ideal inside hive temp. (not the brood nest temp) to set over this winter?

[Dallasbeek]

Wow! It seems to me you are trying to do for the bees what they have done for themselves for millions of years.  I don't know where to start, but I'll just pick a spot.  The bees will regulate the temperature very well for themselves.  They need nutrition a lot more than they need a light bulb in the hive, which is usually dark.  In fact, I don't know what a light bulb in the hive might do to them.  Where in California are you, for goodness sake?  You aren't in the high Sierras, because you say the nighttime temp sometimes goes to 40 degrees.  I assume that's a +40 degrees f, in which case that's cozy for the bees.

I'll leave it to some others to comment on the rest of your posting, but I recommend you read everything on Michael Bush's website for starters.

Let us know if you have any bees in the spring.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.  Ask questions and you'll get good answers here (mine being the exception).  There are a lot of good people on this forum who are ready to help.

[little john]

Well, a 2-frame nuc is small, so as an experiment, I'd say "why not heat the box ?"

Having said that, I very much agree with D-Beek that under normal circumstances continuous supplemental heating really shouldn't be necessary when over-wintering colonies.  But - let's not forget that if colonies are really small, then in the natural environment they wouldn't have a snowball's hope in hell of surviving winter. 

Over here, many beekeepers overwinter their nucs on top of full-sized colonies, in order to provide a modest amount of supplemental heating.  I believe Brother Adam was one of the first to start doing this.  But - this is only to keep nucleus colonies surviving or 'just ticking over' during the winter months - and it was never intended for them to be actively raising brood during this period as a result.

Personally, I'm against the use of continuous electrical supplemental heating - but can see advantages in having a small thermostatically-controlled heater installed in those boxes housing the smallest of colonies, so that should temperatures dip very low for extended periods, a modest amount of heat could then be supplied - just for a few hours - sufficient only to allow the bees to briefly break cluster in order for them to re-locate themselves onto a fresh area of stores.

LJ

[Acebird]

My question is should I raise the controller temp. even more say 90F?  What is the ideal inside hive temp. (not the brood nest temp) to set over this winter?

I would say definitely no.  In winter the ideal temperature is 40 ish.  It keeps the colony from consuming needed resources.  The sensible thing IMV would be to add bees and food if needed to this hive and allow the queen to rest from brood rearing if the colony should choose to do so.  It doesn't make sense to me that if a colony was short on food and short on bees that you would add the one thing that it doesn't need, a heat source.
Assuming your experiment went your way and these bees survived.  What is the usefulness of it's success?

[BeeMaster2]

I also have a 2 frame hive that I am over wintering in about the same climate as yours. Mine is my observation hive that is on my screened in patio. Instead of adding heat, I added several layers of blankets. So far it is working well. I just have to keep a small vent open in the top to allow a little bit of air flow. .
Jim

[Bush_84]

I would keep heat to 35-45 f. I keep bees in a shed at that temp.

[little john]

Assuming your experiment went your way and these bees survived.  What is the usefulness of it's success? 

What 'experiment' are you referring to ? 

The OP said: "In an effort to save a small 2 frames nuc hive over this winter " - i.e. he's trying to save a small nuc he already has.  Of course - with hindsight - combining would have been a much better option. 

As I read his post, he's not trying to test or prove something by experimentation - he's simply trying to salvage a situation he currently finds himself in.
LJ

[Michael Bush]

>My question is should I raise the controller temp. even more say 90F?  What is the ideal inside hive temp. (not the brood nest temp) to set over this winter?

If you HAD winter, it would be 40 F... but you don't...

[beepro]

Thanks all for the different perspective.  Our winter bee environment is pretty much like Jim's with sunny days in the low 60s.  Yes, the temp. probes are in Fahrenheit and so is all reference to it.  I'm not that good at reading Celsius yet.  You can either call this an experiment or a real situation that I found my small nuc hive in right now.  As an experiment, this is my first attempt at using black ceramic light bulb and small animal heat pads in this situation.  Maybe this is what Ace is commenting on running the heater experiment.  This hive will dwindle away if I don't keep the queen continuously laying in small patches of broods through out this winter.  I know that this is not your normal overwintering situation using 3-5 frames of bees.  At 40F in the night time lows, facing a small hive population situation they will not survive for long without new broods to replace the foragers when they died.  Our weather is still warm and sunny in the day time so the foragers are out every day. 

In order for the queen to continue to lay the internal hive temp. must be above 40F to allow the bees to move freely and not be in a winter cluster mode.  They will continue to eat the fresh pollen/nectar brought in by the foragers from the Loquat trees.  Newly emerged bees once turn into young nurse bees will continue to take care of the eggs and broods when the queen lay in the cells after a successful hatch.  If the hive temp. is around 40F every night then they will not make any new broods.  A blanket or styrofoam insulation will not be as efficient as a controlled hive temp. using these additional heat source. 

What about the food source? 
This year we don't have that much rains compare to last year.  So far we have some to only wet the top 4" of soil here.  With nice warm flying weather every day the foragers continue to collect from the extended blooming Loquat trees.  Some trees in our neighbors' yards have not bloom yet while some are having flower buds now.  Mine are half way blooming that the bees and humming birds visit every day.  For additional feed, I've also added some sugar bricks, patty subs and syrup in this hive.  So they are not restricted to only one food source.  When the autumn min-flow is over I'm sure they will use more of these as the brood nest expand after mid-Jan.  Mid-Jan of every year here is the official day that my queens started laying to expand their brood nest.  To me it is also the signal that a new bee year is starting here. 

I also have a big backyard that I can plant for my bees with irrigation hoses already installed. The early blooming Canola can also supplement for this hive. They will bloom after one month from sowing the seeds. These are the special fast growing variety that I found here.  Maybe this is another little planting experiment I can try this late in the season.

In a way, I want to know if they can survive over this winter.  Even though our winter is not as real as the snow region, we still have our yearly arctic chills coming from AK around Christmas time lasting all the way until mid-Feb.  Without supplement heat I don't think they can make it.  One continuous 2 weeks of arctic chills will be the end of this hive.  With supplement heat even when it is frosty outside they can still take care of the broods all warm and cozy inside.

So without melting the drawn comb I set the controller at LB = 87.5F and UP = 88.5F tonight. The brood nest reading is at 92.3F right now.  Somehow the bees like to maintain their brood nest around 93F that I found out.  A degree difference will not affect the developing broods that much.  Since the day time temp. doesn't dip that much around 90F inside it will not trigger the controller only the 20 watt heat pads are on in the bottom nuc box.  The 20 watt small heat pads are not connected to the controller only the 100 watt ceramic light bulb is.  This is because the 20 watt heat pads do not affect the increase in hive temp. that much that I found out.  It is still too cold below 60F inside without using the 100 watt light bulb last time.  So don't buy the 50 or 75 watt small animal ceramic bulb.  Go for the 100 watt instead for the saving and efficiency.  I think I've reach the most efficient temperature setting on the controller now.   More update coming soon!
 

[Acebird]

If the hive temp. is around 40F every night then they will not make any new broods.

You are making statements that just aren't true.  They will make brood when the temperature is negative without any heat source but their own.  They need a population of bees and food that's all.  You are claiming they are getting the food so just give them bees from another hive.  And if you give them bees they will get more food.
The bees can't forage at night so why do you want to keep them active 24 hours?  When bees are active all day they last 6 weeks.  In the winter when they are not active they can just about last 6 months.
In my area we have people that will put cloths on a lab in the winter time.  Isn't that all you are doing?

[little john]

Beepro - your earlier post inferred that you were simply trying to help a small nuc survive the winter - but the content of your latest post suggests that you are trying to run some kind of experiment.  I say 'some kind', because there's no control in place - and so I now concur with Brian (Acebird) in asking 'what will be the usefulness of this ?', assuming there is a successful outcome, of course.

To be honest, I've lost the plot regarding what your goals are when you write, "You can either call this an experiment or a real situation that I found my small nuc hive in right now." and then "In a way, I want to know if they can survive over this winter."  So what exactly is your objective ?

If your priority is to help a small nuc survive, then - taking into account what you have written about current levels of activity in your locality - I'd recommend milking-off a couple of frames of nurse bees from one or more strong hives, and combine these with your small nuc - then pull the plug on your various heaters, ensure the nuc has adequate stores, and leave the bees in peace.  Sorted.

But if your objective is to investigate methods of supporting marginal-sized nucs during winter, then by all means do this, but with a more organised and stable setup, having controls in place and using larger numbers of colonies - and - without tinkering with variables on an ad hoc day-by-day basis.

I'm all for experimentation - indeed, I wish more people would do this - but an off-the-cuff 'suck it and see' approach is seldom a productive way to proceed.

Regardless of the above - wishing you the very best of luck.
LJ

[Dallasbeek]

Note to members: 

This looks like some kind of put-on to me.   I received a rambling PM thing supposedly from beepro (Fin) about his queen rearing and revealing his secret location.  For fun or profit? 

[Robo]

Note to members: 

This looks like some kind of put-on to me.   I received a rambling PM thing supposedly from beepro (Fin) about his queen rearing and revealing his secret location.  For fun or profit?

His IP is from El Dorado Hills, CA 

Looks like he is close to Annette in Placerville.

[Dallasbeek]

He says he's located in Elk Grove, near Sacramento.  Whatever.

[Acebird]

He could be working and accessing the internet at work instead of home.

[Michael Bush]

>If the hive temp. is around 40F every night then they will not make any new broods.

I've seen them raising brood in March here when the nighttime temperatures were around 0 F and the daytime temps were about 10 F.  It's a safe bet the hive temps were no higher than around 10 F at night.

[beepro]

An update:

I inspected the hive today.  They are down to one frame of bees now.  Not many foragers but lots of newly emerged young bees, new eggs, cap broods and some developing larvae. Even though this colony is small now somehow they're doing their best continuing to survive. So far they have not given up on the cap broods yet.  Maybe that is why I don't see that many foragers out anymore as they're staying in trying to keep the cap broods warm during the day time. Either that or the older foragers are dead by now. More eggs are laid as soon as there is an empty cell in the middle of the brood nest.  The only thing missing right now are the foragers because of a dwindling colony.   

Little john, I'm doing both a little heat experiment on a dwindling hive this winter. Also to see if by applying heat they can make it through this winter.  So what is the objective here?   Applying constant heat to see if a small colony can survive.  It is almost like a person on life support system.  If I pull off the heater they will be dead for sure when the arctic chills get here.  It is not an official experiment that there is a control group involved.  That will be a future experiment when there is a chance to.  The bees survival against their winter environment is what I'm trying to study on with supplement heat. If you don't call this an experiment I don't know what else to call it for the lack of term.  If we simply focus on the term then we will lost focus on the present condition of this colony.  Right now it is just colony growth or decline.   Seems like they are declining a bit in population but with 1/2 frame of cap broods they're still surviving. No dead out yet!  How long will this last remain to be seen throughout this winter.

So tell me, will a small colony survive or be dead by Spring time with or without the supplement heat?

[beepro]

Ace, I am stuck right now.  I don't have bees from another hive to put in this dwindling hive.  That is why I'm using supplement heat so that they will not be too cold when temp. dips this winter.  Many will not interrupt another colony once they're in winter mode.
So no, using cloths and a controller to regulate the internal hive temperature is not the same.  Also different is the size of this colony compare to a normal hive that you saw in your colony.  If it gets too cold even a normal colony will not raise broods anymore during the winter time because they just want to cluster in to maintain their body temperature. 

So even though they cannot forage at night, by keeping them active they can still take care of the broods and eating on the pollen frames. In winter cluster mode they can only do so much like keeping themselves warm.  As more broods are raise they will need more nourishment also.  That is why I still have the syrup jar in there 24 hours and refill when needed after a few days. Little do we know that an active colony with developing larvae need so much carbs to survive on.  If it wasn't for the supplement heat I don't think they're free to move around tending to the brood nest.  Basically I've changed the dynamic of a winter hive by using supplement heat.  If this is a successful little experiment then I will try to overwinter more nucs using this method.  Oh, I also forgot to mention that I'm trying to save a rather expensive tf queen in this hive.  That is another objective too I guess.  And adding bees from another hive is very dangerous at this time because they might ball on this expensive queen too. A risk that I'm not willing to take this winter. That is why using heat is the last option I have.  So what do you think will they survive or not?

I try to post some pics but they did not show up.  I'm not sure what is the problem either my browser or the site program?   If I can I will post some
pics of the hive status for us to see.

[BeeMaster2]

Beepro,
As I mentioned, I am basically the same thing with my observation hive but I am using blankets. I just had a major hatch out to replenish the hive. Last week I changed to 2 to 1 sugar water to shut down the queens laying and get them to back fill the brood nest. They are doing just that since the hatch out. As you mentioned, wet brood requires a lot of food, keeping the hive warm does not. I recommend you switch to 2 to 1 now.
Jim

[Acebird]

So what do you think will they survive or not?

Does it matter what I think?
Anyway it appears that your main goal is to save an expensive queen.  I am not the one to tell you how to do that because that is something I would never have to do.  I don't value expensive queens so I wouldn't buy one.  I have read a number of posts that leads me to believe there are less risky ways of banking a queen over winter.  You will have to inquire about that on your own because here again I have no interest in doing that.

Maybe it is a language barrier that I am experiencing, I don't know.  LJ has nicely explained that what you are doing is not an experiment.  It is a test.  You cannot draw conclusions from a single test.  However I have a feeling that you will.