Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Propolis between end bars  (Read 1163 times)

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 220
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
Propolis between end bars
« on: August 28, 2017, 03:23:53 pm »
What do you do with the propolis that builds up between frames over the course of inspections? What I've been doing is just letting it build up until I can't get all 10 frames in the box, then scraping them clean. I don't like to scrape it during each inspection because 1> it takes too long; and 2> I inevitably slip or bang the frame or scrape a bee and it sets them on defense.

Is there a better way to manage this?

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk


Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 04:49:06 pm »
"Is there a better way to manage this?"

That there is negligible.. of no concern, at all, triple that likewise.
The one thing to manage each inspection is excesses of bridging
comb and misplaced comb build in clear space. The bridging comb
is worst when it is tan - or darker - in colour, bloody stuff gets tougher
the older it is. The misplaced comb is just plain inconvienient as, whilst
soft (white), it is the basis for probable stores that will be lost to the
colony on a future inspection... so clean both up when seen, not "she'll be
right, mate". 'Cos it won't be.

Cheers.

Bill

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 8942
  • Gender: Male
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 05:16:23 pm »
When you inspector the hive, make sure the frames are tight together when you are done will help minimize how much propolis they add.
Jim
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 06:54:38 pm by sawdstmakr »
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Oldbeavo

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 06:50:53 pm »
Is the space there between frames all there is in the box?
There should be enough space to get frames out and return them with out trouble.

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2017, 08:03:02 pm »


Is the space there between frames all there is in the box?
There should be enough space to get frames out and return them with out trouble.

I mention this here ol' mate as obliquely your comment reinforces poor practise
as I have seen first hand, in life and those Youtube productions of wannabee oracles.
On frame removal;
1. Always begin on frame #1 or #9/10 depending on which orientation faces
the coolest side of the box, regardless of box use.
2. Have a frame stand of some worth within arms length and preferably
adjacent the entrance. Place a minimum of two frames in stand before attempting to
negoiate the remaining frames.
3. Resist moving frames from their found position unless you own a specific plan.
4. Tap (shake off) the bees on the last frame before insertion.

Those steps will dramaticly reduce any fears of damaging living bees
within a box _and_ allow the bees best chance of continuing their  work, ignoring
you in the process.

Cheers.

Bill

Offline tjc1

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 739
  • Gender: Male
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2017, 09:13:56 pm »
I usually scrape off anything that piles up on TOP of the frame ends, but not between the frames - until the box and frames cycle out of use, such as in the spring when the empty bottom box and frames comes off, or after extracting a super.

Offline yes2matt

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 220
  • Gender: Male
  • Newbee in an urban setting, starting small.
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2017, 11:56:35 pm »
Is the space there between frames all there is in the box?
There should be enough space to get frames out and return them with out trouble.
When it's all clean, yeah, there's extra space in the box to take the frames out in the order mentioned. But as you can see in the picture, the little bit of propolis stretches out when I pry the frames apart. And when I squeeze them back together, the gap is a tiny bit bigger. So of course the bees add some more propolis to fix the tiny gap, and it builds up over the course of several inspections til the frame spacing is off and the box is cramped. Then I do a scrape-down of all the frames. But it's invasive and annoys the bees. That's why I'm asking of there's a better way.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk


Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 01:23:07 am »

Then I do a scrape-down of all the frames.


From the pix I took it these are 'standard' endbars being used so maybe
50mm (2") of meeting faces, the remainder of depth being beespace.
If it is so onerous as to scrape that area where endbars mate I am
wondering now if you have something else. Something like the style
foundationless frames use where the endbar is the same width the full
depth of the endbar?
The few times a year I have cleaned up propolised endbars whilst it is slow
(through care) it is not so tasking as to bee a problem. And back in the day
it was done only once, usually when packing away supers for the wet season.
The buildup over the honey extraction time being not so great as to bee a
worry. But the whole setup was straight Lang, like no variances in moving
beeyond standard frame architecture.

Cheers.

Bill

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2017, 06:06:12 am »
The Hoffman frames we use over here are different from the ones in the photo, in that one Hoffman spacer has a 'V'-shaped profile, which presses against one with a flat profile. Then - as you then push the frames together, the 'V'-shaped spacer displaces soft propolis to either side of the 'V'.

Eventually, every 5th inspection or so, the build-up does become excessive, so - yes - that's when you really do have to scrape the stuff off.

My 'in-house' frames (i.e. those which will never be sold), are made without Hoffman spacers, into the sides of the top bars of which are inserted small (20mm x 3mm) woodscrews.   I'm finding that using these screws for spacing eliminates the propolis problem in that area, as well as pretty-much eliminating the problem of crushing bees when closing-up frames. They're also very handy for adjusting the frame spacing, if your bees aren't happy with what has become 'the standard'.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4738
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 09:21:29 am »
What do you do with the propolis that builds up between frames over the course of inspections?

I would say the problem you are showing in that photo is a result of the frames not being tight together in the first place.  I have both types of frames, the ones with the "V" and the ones like you show.  I like the ones you show better because if you do put them tight together you do not get that build up.  There is no filet or crack to fill.  The "V" invites a build up of propolise and it also wears down when you scrap during the spring or harvest.
Now when I put 7 frames in an 8 frame super it most certainly gets loaded with propolise but when I take these frames out there are no bees in the box.  I can clean the frames when they are cold so the propolise breaks off like knocking dried clay of your shoes.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 16688
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 05:12:52 pm »
>Is there a better way to manage this?

Mind over matter.  If you don't mind, it doesn't matter.
http://bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopscrapingpropolis

"Propolis rarely creates problems for a beekeeper. Certainly any effort to keep a hive free of it by systematic and frequent scraping, is time wasted." --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Oldbeavo

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 360
  • Gender: Male
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 05:29:00 pm »
Exactly right Michael, never scraped a frame end bars and wouldn't have time.


Offline gww

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 896
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 06:44:28 pm »
I must admit, I scraped a side bar today.  I had a hard time getting it out of the hive and it had a u shape gob of propolis at where the end bar tapers and the bees has 3 SHB trapped there.  This is from a guy that does the very min.  The bees had made a pretty effective trap out of that side bar.  I saw a few more beatles today but I don't think they are bad yet but I am hoping it is not a sign of things to come. 
Cheers
gww

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 08:08:30 pm »
NEVER scrap propolis off ? What utter rubbish.

So - over time it then builds up on the side bars so the frames become so wide you can no longer get 'em into the box ...

Over time the top surface of the rebate (rabbet) becomes so built-up there's no longer a bee-space at the top of the box ...

C'mon - get real.  At some point you HAVE to scrape the stuff off.  Maybe not every inspection, but once a year, or whenever the box comes in for maintenance.

I find it's necessary to scrape propolis from the ends of the top bars fairly regularly, or else I have to start forcing the frame into the box ... which is far more effort than scraping.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline sawdstmakr

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 8942
  • Gender: Male
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 09:11:23 pm »
For me, I usually don't scrape the frames until I pull the Supers off to store and I do it during the winter months.
When I work on my observation hive, every frame has to be scraped clean because they are designed with a tight fit.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Eric Bosworth

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 994
  • Gender: Male
  • I love New York... I hate the government.
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2017, 10:12:20 pm »
I only scrap propolis when I move frames and the propolis prevents the frames from fitting. Then if there are a lot of bees I will scrape the propolis. If not I'll just push it harder and it will scrape off in the process. I find that if there is a lot of bees they get angry when frames are crammed into the hive.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns; that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party. ---Mao Tse Tung

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. ---Benjamin Franklin

Offline eltalia

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2017, 11:02:49 am »
"The Hoffman frames we use over here are different from the ones in the photo, in that one Hoffman spacer has a 'V'-shaped profile, which presses against one with a flat profile. Then - as you then push the frames together, the 'V'-shaped spacer displaces soft propolis to either side of the 'V'."

News to me LJ.. having followed the rainbow to that pot of (bee)gold, like.
But hey, I am getting right into this foundationless thang and loving it BigTime!
Pix to follow but my work on your concept is proving what you say true, thusfar,

More later ;-)

... did I say I am loving this beekeeping over beeworking?

Cheerio..

Bill

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 16688
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2017, 11:44:10 am »
I only scrape it when it's in my way and almost never is.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline little john

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1483
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2017, 02:45:19 pm »
A frame top-bar needs end-float in order for it to be inserted into the box. When the bees propolise that gap, and it then hardens, the end-float no longer exists.  Add to this deposits of propolis on either side of the frame's location, and it soon becomes very difficult indeed to insert that frame - unless you intend hammering it in, of course.

It's not a question of "mind over matter", it's simply a case of removing the propolis in order to restore the necessary end-float. If people find that too much trouble, then perhaps they should take up knitting instead.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 16688
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Propolis between end bars
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 03:51:23 pm »
I've run between 4 and 200 hives and often 100 mating nucs for 43 years. I've never found any systematic scraping of propolis necessary or in any way useful. If some propolis is in my way (and it hardly ever is) then I get it out of my way.  Other than that I don't mind and it doesn't matter.  I would say in an average day of working bees from dawn to dusk I scrape some propolis off of something maybe once or twice a day.  In other words I've handled at least 250 to 300 frames and scraped something off of two of them at most.  Odds are those two are PermaComb and the ears are too long and I scrape them because of a manufacturing defect that requires me to make as much room as I can to get the frame back in the box.  If I didn't have the PermaComb that number would fall to almost none.  Some people (especially knitters) like redundant tedious tasks.  I'm happy for them.   I am not planning to take up knitting or scraping propolis. 
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin