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Author Topic: Split a Hot Hive - Questions  (Read 661 times)

Offline PhilK

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Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« on: August 27, 2017, 12:22:03 am »
Hi all,

We just did an inspection on a very busy hive in our home yard. They were bursting at the seams with bees and super full of honey, so we decided to split them. Took 5 of the 10 frames and put them in another box with a bunch of bees shaken in, and replaced with drawn comb.

The problem is these bees were really aggressive - lots buzzing around our heads and copped numerous stings. We couldn't find the queen to save our lives. I'm worried now about propagating aggressive tendencies. What should we do now?

My plan is to recheck the split in 7 days to check for eggs and/or queen cells - this should tell me which half of the split the queen ended up in. If they are drawing QCs I assume they have no queen - should we requeen them with a gentle queen or see what happens? I'll check the original at the same time to assess whether queen right or not.

Should we just buy two gentle queens in and request both halves of the split?

Thanks
Phil

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2017, 06:13:40 am »
... hey hey Phil, at  this rate you'll hit that 70 number in no time :- D
Need a ph.number for a bulk honey brokerr?

   :  chuckles:

Cheerio...

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2017, 08:54:56 am »
Is the africanized honeybee even an issue down under?  Pulling frames is always a serious intervention into a hive.  You stand a chance of rolling bees and at the very least you are tearing their home apart.  To me an aggressive hive is when they won't let you near it without getting pelted.  Can you walk up to the hive now that it is closed up?
Brian Cardinal
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2017, 09:10:10 am »
When a hive is that full, the bees are going to bee more defensive. As Brian mentioned, with the bees that thick you were probably rolling bees when you removed the first frame. The next time you go into this hive, smoke them through the entrance. Wait 10 minutes, then smoke them again and wait 30 seconds. Then bee real gentle and slow removing the first frame. I think you will think it is a totally different hive.
Jim
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Offline gww

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2017, 09:26:21 am »
I am much too new to listen to but thought I would throw this out.  You could kill all the queen cells after 5 days and then add a comb of open brood from a really nice hive and let them requeen them selves from that.  You would still have to relie on whatever drones were out there but I have heard this advice given before.
Good luck
gww

Offline PhilK

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2017, 11:31:59 am »
This hive has given us problems before - most of ours bees don't mind us in their hive so much, but these girls fly up off the frames and headbutt us, and we're more likely to get stung with them than another hive. They were following people around in the yard for about an hour after we were finished. I guess I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and see how they are in 7 days when we check them (assuming that's an OK option?)

Offline Acebird

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2017, 06:48:04 pm »
They were following people around in the yard for about an hour after we were finished.
Wait three days to determine if they are still pissy.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2017, 10:32:42 am »
This hive has given us problems before - most of ours bees don't mind us in their hive so much, but these girls fly up off the frames and headbutt us, and we're more likely to get stung with them than another hive.
(edit)
Ev'ning Phil...
Having had your colonies some years now you should be familiar with
managing a strong colony... like 80K occupants or more?
So when you are finding one which differs from your norm would it not bee
wise to look at why, first? Like eliminate any guesswork as to why they
are sensitive to disturbance?
OAD - observe assess determine.
It's too late now but some thought towards determination could have included
swapping queens. Were the aggressiveness to have moved you would then
know *know* the genetics are the problem, and so save yourself and the bees
a whole new dynamic in hard work.
For an enthusiaist there is no loss maybe in how you went about this excercise
but as an excercise in problem solving it is pointless, yeh?

Cheerio...

Bill

Offline iddee

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2017, 06:42:41 pm »
Aggressiveness is normally passed down by the drones. I would check both hives and find the queen and dispatch her. Then be sure both sides of the split have queen cells and let both raise their own queen. The new queens will mate with drones from other hives and most likely have gentler habits.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline eltalia

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2017, 09:25:11 pm »
Aggressiveness is normally passed down by the drones.


The line of reasoning passed on when nominating a queen breeder for supply of
queens of desired characteristics, being drones in those areas hold those gene
lines... and why one would resist propagating within one's own yard where an
aggressive colony exists.
All fine reasoning if one subscribes to the "drone congregation area" theory.
I do not (subscribe), yet - unless as an emergency or experiment as I am currently
doing -  I source queens from known lines, or at least from those breeders of solid
reputation in consistency.
How they get there I do not know and they are not telling ;-)

Cheers.


Bill

Offline iddee

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2017, 09:38:16 pm »
There are as many ways to keep bees as there are beekeepers, so to each his own.

As for the drones in the hive mating with their sister, the eggs will be removed before they hatch, so no heredity passed there.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2017, 09:44:46 pm »
There are as many ways to keep bees as there are beekeepers, so to each his own.

As for the drones in the hive mating with their sister, the eggs will be removed before they hatch, so no heredity passed there.

No, true.... tho' according to the DCA theory (ists) all the guys in the drone Lodge
are cousins, of generations :-)

Bil

Offline iddee

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2017, 10:07:28 pm »
According to the story of Adam and Eve, so are we. Sometimes, the distance of cousins need to be considered.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline eltalia

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2017, 10:37:36 pm »
According to the story of Adam and Eve, so are we.
Exactly my direction in questioning DCA.. the longevity of "a little cow
amongst a lot of bull" as psuedo authenticity is worth the work in
disembowlment - calling it for what it is, if you like :-)

Quote
Sometimes, the distance of cousins need to be considered.

 : nodding:

.... why I left the farm to pursue maidens in "the big smoke"...heh.

Cheerio

Bill

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2017, 10:55:06 pm »

As for the drones in the hive mating with their sister, the eggs will be removed before they hatch, so no heredity passed there.
Actually only the queens mother's half of the genetics are removed by the bees. If the egg has the queens father's half of the genetics then the eggs are allowed to hatch. That is why when a queen mates with her brothers, 1/2 of the eggs are removed.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline iddee

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2017, 05:21:38 am »
Link, please.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2017, 08:32:24 am »
Wally,
I do not have a link. Maybe Honey Bee Biology.
I learned about this several times (different instructors over the years) in bee college.
I am probably not saying it correctly but about have of the eggs are viable. When I get back to the farm I will try looking it up in Honey Bee Biology.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline iddee

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2017, 09:56:11 am »
Thanks. I have never seen it, so would like to be aware of the source and the details. I may be past antique, approaching historic, but never too old to learn.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline little john

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2017, 03:51:18 pm »
You might want to look-up "inbreeding shot-brood pattern".  This is the sort of stuff you'll find:
Quote
There are holes in the brood pattern when the larva is consumed, and the pattern is what is called shot brood.  The worst effects are seen in inbreeding. A brother sister mating will produce only 50% viable brood.

Beekeeping for Poverty Alleviation and Livelihood Security: Vol. 1
LJ
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2017, 10:44:13 pm »
Thanks LJ.
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Split a Hot Hive - Questions
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2017, 03:49:02 pm »
 >Actually only the queens mother's half of the genetics are removed by the bees. If the egg has the queens father's half of the genetics then the eggs are allowed to hatch. That is why when a queen mates with her brothers, 1/2 of the eggs are removed.

I'm not sure I follow you.  The sex determination in honey bees is on a particular set of allelles.  If they match (or in the case of a haploid drone they are missing) then they become a male.  if they do not match they become a female.  For reasons unknown the bees remove diploid (fertilized) drone eggs, probably mostly because they are in worker cells.  The cause of them matching is usually because the queen was mated to drones too closely related to her. (inbreeding)  The eggs get removed because they are diploid drone eggs in worker cells.  Drone eggs are supposed to be haploid (one set of genes i.e. not fertilized) and in drone cells.  Here's an interesting study on purposely getting diploid drones:
http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_150472348131111&key=e6f8f4e2356f0ecd2e29116cb90b30ae&libId=j79dmgax0102686w000DA12n7x50cwoa10&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.beesource.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3F340360-How-long-can-queens-be-banked&v=1&out=https%3A%2F%2Fpdfs.semanticscholar.org%2Fdee5%2Fd38ff1ccfa7968dc41f3b5f9e6cd9078bb05.pdf&title=How%20long%20can%20queens%20be%20banked%3F&txt=https%3A%2F%2Fpdfs.semanticscholar.org%2Fdee...cd9078bb05.pdf
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