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Author Topic: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?  (Read 2564 times)

Offline Fishing-Nut

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Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« on: August 23, 2017, 12:07:54 am »
Ok.... couple of questions....again......I'm considering purchasing an insect fogger for treating for varroa. Which one do y'all recommend? Also I was reading online somewhere (possibly here) where someone blew the lid off of their hive using some sort of vaporizer.....I must admit I got a good laugh out of the mental image I got from that story. But it really wasn't funny, and I really don't want anything like that happening. Is this a common thing or what? I think I recall the person saying that they used some sort of liquor in the treatment. Like ever clear (grain alcohol) or something like that.  I don't like or want any sort of explosion.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 12:21:40 am »
Folks are experimenting with the insect foggers. I don't even know if they know what dose they are administering (pretty much guess work) I hear some say one trigger shot is one gram per box??? I don't think anyone really knows. They just don't want to come off the $485 :shocked: for an OA vaporizer gun. Yes it is Everclear... alcohol and a propane flame  :wink:  Maybe someone here has used the insect fogger?

Provap 110.... You would thick the coughing would be telling him something



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Offline cao

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 01:07:11 am »
Sorry I can't advise on this subject.  I haven't treated since I started keeping bees 5 years ago.  I don't see myself ever treating.  I started with 3 hives and now have 40+/- hives.  I personally don't see the need.

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 05:09:34 am »
Sorry I can't advise on this subject.  I haven't treated since I started keeping bees 5 years ago.  I don't see myself ever treating.  I started with 3 hives and now have 40+/- hives.  I personally don't see the need.

Umm I thought he asked about an OA vaporizer not being treatment free  :wink:
John 3:16

Offline Fishing-Nut

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 12:14:40 pm »
Check out a video by "barnyard bees" on YouTube. He takes some measurements and all, before he uses the fogger. I'm new to any kind of treatment, but with that hive absconding I really want to get some things in check the best I can before fall. Because come spring I want the bees to take off and I want to expand my yard next year.
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Offline GSF

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 02:52:28 pm »
I've been OAV'n for a few years now. Great results. I bought two of them so I can stick one in the hive and pull the other out. I think the last one I got was off of ebay or from Mann Lake.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline jvalentour

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 11:04:12 pm »
CAO,
May I visit your apiary?
Please PM.

Offline little john

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2017, 03:11:26 am »
I can't get my head around why people are messing around with solvents, when a simple heating device is all that's required to vapourise Oxalic Acid.

Evidence is that VOA (Vapourised Oxalic Acid) presents as being the best tool currently available in the fight against a nasty little parasite, and it would be counter-productive should VOA develop a bad reputation resulting from reckless methods of introduction.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline eltalia

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2017, 04:41:19 am »
 :"Evidence is that VOA (Vapourised Oxalic Acid) presents as being the best tool currently available ... "

: nods:
.... what I have arrived at after reading copius paper on what is availble
and what has to be in the thousands of posts on the topic of VM as the asociated disease conduit.
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/vsh_news.html

I was most pleased to read this brief recently;
http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2017/varroa-mites-bees-archenemies-have-genetic-holes-in-their-armor/


Cheers.


Bill:

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2017, 05:54:00 am »
I can't get my head around why people are messing around with solvents, when a simple heating device is all that's required to vapourise Oxalic Acid.

Evidence is that VOA (Vapourised Oxalic Acid) presents as being the best tool currently available in the fight against a nasty little parasite, and it would be counter-productive should VOA develop a bad reputation resulting from reckless methods of introduction.
LJ

Absolutely... on top of blowing yourself up with a flame thrower full of ethyl alcohol :shocked:...
John 3:16

Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 01:55:02 pm »
Here some YouTube videos you might want to take a look at.  What I have not been able to find is pre and post mite numbers before and using a fogger for treatment.










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Offline Fishing-Nut

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 04:10:07 pm »
Folks, yesterday I went and got into the hives. I studied frame after frame full of bees and couldn't spot one single varroa mite. I know that's a good thing but does it say anything about the mite problem that I may (or may not) have?
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Offline herbhome

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 05:48:47 pm »
 It's very hard to spot the little suckers on a bee. Placing a sticky board on the bottom will show mites that just fall off or are groomed off. Consensus seems to hold that an alcohol wash or powdered sugar shake are the best diagnostic tool, with most weight of opinion on the alcohol side.
 Most importantly, I think, is the mite borne diseases. Look for dead or crawling bees on or near the landing board. Deformed Wing Virus and Chronic Bee Paralysis are the big ones to look for.

Hope this helps.
Neill

Offline Fishing-Nut

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 06:31:56 pm »
From what I read if you had a serious problem you should be able to spot some if you looked long enough. But I guarantee I could be wrong. I did study the bees long enough for them to get good and upset with me though. I read that they were pretty visible on the back of the bees.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 07:15:52 pm »
[caveat]
never seen first hand a live VM.
never used a "sticky board"
never sucked on Oxalic Acid vapour - that I am aware of.
[/caveat]

I have read/seen so much material on VM these last weeks the exercise
has often had me retire to the tractor for some "time out" - it is a much
discussed topic with a great deal of subjective opinion.
Yet out of it all I have formed a way forward for the day VM is verified in
an Aussie colony, and have set to already in building a module for
training delivery.
Part of that is of course identification.
Cutback, to the surest method of least interference and equipment/time
investment, is the physical inspection of the underside abodomen of
nurse bees. The bee is picked up by the wings, turned over to expose it's
"belly" and the "tail" bent back. VM present will display as attached to the
"belly cracks" as they feed on the fatty tissue.
Sampling numbers of is another topic, but that is how you find one, alive
and doing the job the whole deal is about, growing numbers of.


Cheers.


Bill

Offline eltalia

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 07:27:13 pm »
"Here some YouTube videos you might want to take a look at.  What I have not been able to find is pre and
post mite numbers before and using a fogger for treatment"

Without starting yet another long (windy) discussion on one versus the other I have removed
fogging as a way forward. When needed I will be using the thermal vape method with some
work already done on designing my own version - which will be made available on Gumtree.com
- with  effectiveness/efficiency numbers.

Cheers.

Bill

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 08:18:22 pm »
Folks, yesterday I went and got into the hives. I studied frame after frame full of bees and couldn't spot one single varroa mite. I know that's a good thing but does it say anything about the mite problem that I may (or may not) have?

It tells you nothing except... you did not see any  :wink:
John 3:16

Offline Barhopper

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2017, 09:50:34 pm »
People don't seem to want to post drop numbers using the fogger method. Lots of people trying it but no one reporting numbers.I've done OAV for three years and I can tell you it does work. Just got a ProVap that I'm itching to try.

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2017, 12:30:37 am »
People don't seem to want to post drop numbers using the fogger method. Lots of people trying it but no one reporting numbers.I've done OAV for three years and I can tell you it does work. Just got a ProVap that I'm itching to try.

Because they probably don't know...

I would like to get a provap but I may wait on the Oliver shop towel report...
John 3:16

Offline little john

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2017, 04:27:07 am »
A simple observation of the number of dead mites resulting from treatment is flawed, as the number will be a function BOTH of the efficiency of the treatment used, AND the initial severity of infestation.  So, one can obviously be confused with the other - and, in addition - the counting of dead mites says absolutely NOTHING about how many live mites remain - which is arguably what you really ought to be concerned with ...

A far better approach would be to assess the level of infestation BEFORE treatment, using either the sugar-roll or alcohol methods, THEN treat, and THEN re-assess a sample of remaining bees, using exactly the same assay method.

But realistically, is anyone really going to adopt such a procedure for EVERY hive, on EVERY occasion ?  I doubt it.

LJ
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 04:42:59 am »
(edit)
But realistically, is anyone really going to adopt such a procedure for EVERY hive, on EVERY occasion ?  I doubt it.

LJ

... it is early days here LJ but just the other day Victoria put in place regulation to demand just that. It's a bit loose in it's virgin form - 2 recorded tests per year, IIRC - but will no doubt grow with hands-on experience.
As to results versus the actuality of infestation?
Would not one think that should the same process be used in similar local (colony) conditions then, over
time, a "near enough" measure of 'success' could be formed as a guide? Given nothing I have read thusfar
is even aimed at total anniliation (sp?) of mites in any colony.
Seems to me that globally the industry has gone with "live with what is managable"... no?

Cheers.

Bill

Offline Barhopper

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2017, 07:50:05 am »
A simple observation of dead mites would tell if the fogger method was working.

Offline little john

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 07:56:29 am »

As to results versus the actuality of infestation?
Would not one think that should the same process be used in similar local (colony) conditions then, over time, a "near enough" measure of 'success' could be formed as a guide?

I'm not sure I understand you - do you mean success in one hive implies a similar success in others within the same area ?

Well, if so - I can only speak from my own experience, which may not translate across to the experience of others, of course - but in the past I did observe one colony producing deformed wings (assumption then fairly obviously being DWV, thanks to Varroa), whilst many dozens of others close-by appeared healthy.  From that, I assumed either that colony's genetics were particularly suspect to virus infection - or - that this colony alone was overloaded with Varroa mites, whilst the rest were ok.  Had I overlooked that colony's winter dose of VOA ? Maybe - I just don't know.  Several summer doses of VOA spaced a few days apart, and that colony has been chugging away without problems ever since that time.  Intepret that how you will - as there are far too many 'unknowns' there to shake a stick at.

Quote
Seems to me that globally the industry has gone with "live with what is managable"... no?

I rather think you'll find that the industry has gone with "whatever is most profitable."  /cynic mode.

Something else you might want to consider - which no-one else appears to be doing: is to adopt some preventative measures, as well as curative ones. 

The principle transmission vectors for the Varroa mite are considered to be 'Robbing' and 'Drifting'.  So - space your hives further apart, and fit anti-robbing screens to ALL hives.  This of course might entail separate screens over multiple entrances in order to cater for traffic flow, which is no doubt substantial in many honey-gathering areas.

In addition - and I know that this will go down like the proverbial lead balloon - stop keeping Italians, which have a well-earned reputation for their propensity to both Rob AND Drift.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline little john

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 07:59:59 am »
A simple observation of dead mites would tell if the fogger method was working.

Sure - but not how efficiently compared with other methods.  I.e. how many live mites is it leaving behind ?  This is the problem with ALL treatments for Varroa - figuring out just how effective they are.
LJ
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Offline GSF

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 09:35:18 am »
I heard this analysis that I pretty much adopted; You don't have to look, if you got dogs you got fleas. If you got bees you got mites. I OAV every year about this time without the bother of trying to figure out whether I got them or not. Other areas may be different but not here. The two things that will take out your bees here are mites and starvation.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 11:36:11 am »

As to results versus the actuality of infestation?
Would not one think that should the same process be used in similar local (colony) conditions then, over time, a "near enough" measure of 'success' could be formed as a guide?

I'm not sure I understand you - do you mean success in one hive implies a similar success in others within the same area ?


No, sorry... in hindsight I should have laid out the hypothetical more clearly
as one BK having say 10 colonies at the same location of similar strength
and queenright geneolgy.


Quote

I rather think you'll find that the industry has gone with "whatever is most profitable."  /cynic mode.


I'll use all my skeptic(ism] to see your cynic;
/palms cards

Quote

Something else you might want to consider - which no-one else appears to be doing: is to adopt some preventative measures, .... (edit)

In addition - and I know that this will go down like the proverbial lead balloon - stop keeping Italians, which have a well-earned reputation for their propensity to both Rob AND Drift.
LJ

Agreed on both.... when it happens here, in Aussie.


Cheers.


Bill

Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 06:26:21 pm »
Thanks Bill,
The links on post #8 are very interesting, I hope some read them as they are the way forward.

Offline Barhopper

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 06:36:21 pm »
A simple observation of dead mites would tell if the fogger method was working.

Sure - but not how efficiently compared with other methods.  I.e. how many live mites is it leaving behind ?  This is the problem with ALL treatments for Varroa - figuring out just how effective they are.
LJ
I would like to know if they're getting a mite drop and if so, how many. I realize it might not be perfect just wanting to know if they're seeing dead mites with the fogger.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 09:27:48 pm »
A simple observation of dead mites would tell if the fogger method was working.

Sure - but not how efficiently compared with other methods.  I.e. how many live mites is it leaving behind ?  This is the problem with ALL treatments for Varroa - figuring out just how effective they are.
LJ
I would like to know if they're getting a mite drop and if so, how many. I realize it might not be perfect just wanting to know if they're seeing dead mites with the fogger.
Having followed more than one discussion intently the answer, in a nutshell, BH, is "nobody knows". It all reads as no <dot.org> is ready to bite the bullet in funding atomising efficency studies.
Not a fan of introducing anything wet - other than water - to a colony I would take my(?) chances in vaping the little critters over dousing the bees in liquid. I include "sugar water" in that family of pet hates ;-)


Cheers.


Bill

Offline little john

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2017, 02:36:04 am »
Seems to me that globally the industry has gone with "live with what is managable"... no?

I've been thinking more on this overnight.  In Britain (dunno about elsewhere) - Foul Brood of either type are dealt with by 'the ultimate solution': colonies are killed and the woodwork burned on site, either by the beekeeper or by 'The Authorities'.  Failure to notify, and/or failure to act are treated as crimes, and punishable by law.  In some cases, antibiotics can be prescribed and adminstered by qualified vets, but independant acquisition and use by a beekeeper is again considered a crime, and punishable under our laws.
(There was a high profile case recently where a guy 'cut corners' by independant acquisition of antibiotics in order to save time, and told the authorities afterwards of the action he'd taken. He was hung out to dry.)

Why such measures ?  Because of the infectious nature of those diseases.  But aren't Varroa and Tracheal Mites in the same league ?  Well, you'd think so - as they also spread like wildfire and can kill colonies.  But these latter two aren't "notifiable conditions" (at least, not over here) - somebody, somewhere, has drawn a legal line distinguishing between these various conditions.  On one side of the line, there's complete and total State intolerance.  But on the other side, "deal with these as best you can".  Seems a bit arbitary to me.

If, in the early days of Varroa introduction, infested colonies had been identified, exclusion zones set up and colonies within them torched - then perhaps the problem could have been stopped at source.  Just as is done with Foot and Mouth Disease, 'Mad-Cow Disease', Swine Fever, Bird 'Flu and others.

I suspect the same 'non-approach' will be taken as and when (not 'if') Small Hive Beetle makes itself known upon these shores.  Could it just be that the Honey-Bee isn't seen as being in the same economic league as other livestock ?
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2017, 12:18:22 pm »
I can't get my head around why people are messing around with solvents, when a simple heating device is all that's required to vapourise Oxalic Acid.

Evidence is that VOA (Vapourised Oxalic Acid) presents as being the best tool currently available in the fight against a nasty little parasite, and it would be counter-productive should VOA develop a bad reputation resulting from reckless methods of introduction.
LJ

First thing is that folks want to see if a new, better, faster, way can be found.  If someone had not tried OAV we would not have that tool to use.

It would not be counter-productive is VOA does not develop a "bad reputation".  It might develop into the best treatment we have for killing mites.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 10:09:35 pm by Groundhawg »
Gracious words are like a honey comb, sweetness to the soul and health to the body.  Proverbs 16:24

Offline little john

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2017, 04:17:47 pm »
The current methods of vapourising Oxalic Acid are well-proven, and reasonably safe - providing sensible handling precautions are taken - for as soon as it's sublimation temperature is reached, Oxalic Acid immediately exits the apparatus, cools down to form a micro-crystalline dust cloud well away from the heat source.

In contrast, these experimental methods are subjecting Oxalic Acid to temperatures significantly in excess of it's sublimation temperature, in some cases even to that of 'red heat'.

Apart from organic solvents themselves having a flashpoint which renders them unpredictably dangerous when heated - just check out this extract from the Oxalic Acid MSDS Data Sheet from http://www.labchem.com

5.2.  Fire hazard:
 
DIRECT FIRE HAZARD. Non-flammable.
In finely divided state: increased fire hazard.

INDIRECT FIRE HAZARD. Heating increases the fire hazard.

Reactions involving a fire hazard:
see "Reactivity Hazard".
 
Explosion hazard: 

DIRECT EXPLOSION HAZARD. Its dust is explosive with air.

INDIRECT EXPLOSION HAZARD.
Dust cloud can be ignited by a spark.  [let alone 'red heat' - LJ]

Reactions with explosion hazards: see "Reactivity Hazard".

Reactivity: 
On heating: release of corrosive gases/vapours (formic acid).
Upon combustion: CO and CO2 are formed.

Reacts violently with (strong) oxidizers: (increased) risk of fire/explosion. Reacts violently with (some) bases: release of heat.
Decomposes on exposure to UV light: release of corrosive gases/vapours (formic acid).
 
NFPA fire hazard:  1 - Must be preheated before ignition can occur.


So as you can see, subjecting OA to temperatures significantly in excess of it's sublimation temperature - even if one discounts the risk of explosion - results in it's decomposition into formic acid, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide, (depending upon decomposition temperature, and thus in uncertain proportions), and therefore I suggest is NOT such a clever idea to be pursuing.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2017, 07:19:23 pm »
Good points LJ. Thanks
Jim
"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed.  If you do read the newspaper you are misinformed."--Mark Twain

Offline Barhopper

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2017, 07:20:33 pm »
I can't get my head around why people are messing around with solvents, when a simple heating device is all that's required to vapourise Oxalic Acid.

Evidence is that VOA (Vapourised Oxalic Acid) presents as being the best tool currently available in the fight against a nasty little parasite, and it would be counter-productive should VOA develop a bad reputation resulting from reckless methods of introduction.
LJ

First thing is that folks want to see in a new, better, faster, way can be found.  If someone had not tried OAV we would not have that tool to use.

It would not be counter-productive is VOA does not develop a "bad reputation".  It might develop into the best treatment we have for killing mites.
Having used a ProVap for the first time today I can't think of anything faster. Don't have to mix up a solution. I had to do a little prep to the hives but it's only a one time deal so it'll just get faster. I blocked off hives, drill holes, treated and waited 10 minutes before unblocking hives. Did 12 in 30 minutes. Cost is certainly less with fogging but as many recall the fat man said it was the best ever with mineral oil and we know how that ended. I will continue to monitor thus thread for fogger mite drop.

Offline sc-bee

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2017, 01:56:40 am »
I always hold back on linking another forum but a lot of information on the chemistry of the subject here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334020-OAV-with-a-fogger
John 3:16

Offline eltalia

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2017, 06:28:59 am »
I always hold back on linking another forum but a lot of information on the chemistry of the subject here:

http://www.bees ource.com/forums/showthread.php?334020-OAV-with-a-fogger

Lots of noise in amongest any value in that place, SC-B... as you'd know :-/
But yeah... largely it was what waa posted in one huge thread that persuaded  me to go look
elsewhere for some meat on the topic.

@LJ
Those flashpoint standards (labels) often have me smiling.. like I have pumped menthonol with
an open electric drill pump, welded a 500gallon tank loaded with diesel, and...are you aware anyhydrous
ammonia in the right mix(air) is highly explosive... yet I have had cause to work in that type
of environment. Still here through all that and more, but yeah.. wouldn't recommend it as a pastime ;-)

Cheers.

Bill

Offline Groundhawg

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2017, 11:16:21 am »

Having used a ProVap for the first time today I can't think of anything faster. Don't have to mix up a solution. I had to do a little prep to the hives but it's only a one time deal so it'll just get faster. I blocked off hives, drill holes, treated and waited 10 minutes before unblocking hives. Did 12 in 30 minutes. Cost is certainly less with fogging but as many recall the fat man said it was the best ever with mineral oil and we know how that ended. I will continue to monitor thus thread for fogger mite drop.
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Some new information on the ProVap with numbers of mites dropping, on their website.  Did you get a chance to measure number of mites found in some/all of your hives before treating?  Would be great to see your numbers before and since you treated.  Thanks.
Gracious words are like a honey comb, sweetness to the soul and health to the body.  Proverbs 16:24

Offline Barhopper

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Re: Vaporizer for oxalic acid? Also where to purchase?
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2017, 11:58:28 am »
I did not measure before. Although I know I should do a wash before I typically just treat at the beginning of September and again in February. If I think I'm having a problem in between those times I will do a wash. However I left a few white boards in to see what the drop is. This has worked for me for several years now.