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Author Topic: Comb Honey Sales  (Read 11189 times)

Offline omnimirage

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2018, 05:18:05 pm »
A local beekeeper showed me her honeycomb set up recently, she used made I think it was 8 ply wood miniboxs to fill in an empty frame, the bees would fill in these mini-plywood boxs with comb and she found a cheap square plastic container with a lid that looks great, and she cuts out the honey from the plywood boxs and puts it in the container.

Offline 220

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2018, 06:20:35 pm »
A bit of a update, yet to hear anything back from the food authority, no surprises there.
I threw the box on mid Autumn in the hope we may get a late flow. With the drought conditions we didn't but the bees were still bringing in a little and did some work on the mini frames.
They seem to have no trouble with them, there was virtually no brace comb and they hadn't tried to fill the area in the middle of the box between frames at all so I will be giving them a run next season.
Tried vacuum sealing them, went a bit heavy on the first attempt and crushed some of the comb, but after that no issues.



Offline Bamboo

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2018, 07:09:50 pm »
Looks great 220 well done good luck selling them
My only concern would be from a food safety point of view is the nails in the frame. Not sure they would pass muster.
Given that they are such a small frame and really don't get much handling like a normal frame, inspection extraction etc, they are only a one use frame, how about just friction joints? The top and bottom bars can be made to fit snugly tapping them together with a hammer.
On further thought I would question wood in a food product, splinters etc.
I know you posted a couple of links of others doing the same, however just because they are doesn't make it legal.
Don't get me wrong, I think what you have done is great and I salute you but knowing what a nanny state country we live in I just have this gut feeling that there is no way they would approve wood or nails in/next to a food product, straight from the hive or not.
I have been wracking my brains and I can't think of one food product that is packaged in wood.
Not being a wowser but I would hate you to get slapped with a public liability suit that could ruin you and your family, it only takes one smart a....ed lawyer to buy it at a market "supposedly " get a splinter from eating the honey and you are up the creek.

Offline 220

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2018, 07:34:37 pm »
Wood is still used for the vast majority of fruit bins, all commercial sales are buy the bin, it isn't until further down the line that the fruit ends up in something other than wood.
From first hand experience I can tell you the condition of fruit bins is no where near what even a poorly kept frame is in.
They are small enough that a friction fit and glue would no doubt hold them but given most fruit bins have rust nails and gang nail plates all over them I don't think it is really a issue.
I would really like to get a reply from the food authority to clarify but the use of wood certainly isn't with out precedence.
Brother and plenty of others sell fruit directly from wooden bins, a slight difference in that the customer doesn't take the bin with them but certainly having the product stored in wood isn't a issue. There has also been a bit of a return to wooden chopping blocks in the butchery industry, pine and a number of other timbers actually have anti bacterial properties and they are scientifically proven to be more hygienic than plastic or glass.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2018, 08:11:30 pm »
I can't think of one food product that is packaged in wood.
Cod fish, fruit, and so far kitchen utensils are still made of wood.  Bamboo skewers are still used, toothpicks after a meaty meal.  Cutting boards and most foods are stored in wooden cabinets.  We would all be dead if wood was an unsanitary material.  Now plastic could harbor the nastiest of nastiest of germs but we have been led to believe it is sanitary.  Maybe I should say most people believe.
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Offline Bamboo

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2018, 10:45:37 pm »
Wood is still used for the vast majority of fruit bins, all commercial sales are buy the bin, it isn't until further down the line that the fruit ends up in something other than wood.
There has also been a bit of a return to wooden chopping blocks in the butchery industry, pine and a number of other timbers actually have anti bacterial properties and they are scientifically proven to be more hygienic than plastic or glass.
I agree with most you say however the "food" is not consumed from the wood packaging and in most cases has a skin on it that is often removed prior to eating.
I am not sure you could scientifically prove that wood is more hygienic than glass.
Hey look I'm not trying to rain on your parade I would love to do something similar but I just don't think wood and nail packaging will cut it with the food authorities.

Offline 220

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2018, 04:28:34 am »
If there is any issue with wood and nails then bee keepers are in serious trouble. We will have to all move to another material for hives and frames. Any issues with comb honey in timber frames would apply equally to honey extracted or comb honey cut from timber frames.

I really can't see how there can be a issue, every super market in the country sells raw meat, poultry and seafood skewered on bits of timber. Plenty of takeaway places sell the same cooked ready to consume packaged exactly the same way.

 

Offline Bamboo

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2018, 05:58:10 pm »
I am interested to know what the NSW Food Authority reply is, I hope you let us all know. Hopefully it is applicable countrywide.
Good luck with it.
Cheers

Offline eltalia

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2018, 08:49:37 pm »
If there is any issue with wood and nails then bee keepers are in serious trouble. We will have to all move to another material for hives and frames. Any issues with comb honey in timber frames would apply equally to honey extracted or comb honey cut from timber frames.

I really can't see how there can be a issue, every super market in the country sells raw meat, poultry and seafood skewered on bits of timber. Plenty of takeaway places sell the same cooked ready to consume packaged exactly the same way.

Yeppas.. and all approved with licence to sell such.
From the visual you post all you are missing is a piece of paper
to wave about and the APPR ###### to go on the packaging.

You have done well, good luck with it all :-))

Bill

(Update)
Sorry but I have just read the restarted thread and
something Mark put triggered a memory.

True Story.
No names no pack drill buuut I know this fella who's brother's
Mother was his own wife's Mum-in-Law. A successfull businessman
with an ice dispensing franchise operation he was brought a
civil suit(plaint) claiming damages both permanent
physchological (sp?) and immediate digestive trauma (repaired)
over a stainless steel pop rivet head being consumed as part of
an iced drink. The claim was the plaintiff saw it in the glass but
swallowed regardless, to then be rushed to ED.
Yeah, I know... BS.
Buuut the outcome was an out of court settlement in the tens of
thousands of hard earned Aussie dollars. Lucky actually because
this was before the changes to corporate Law which demanded
a Director put up the Home in declarations.
As far as it is known the plaintiff never had more than a few hours
discomfort awaiting xRays excetera, and who knows how the evidence
was retrieved but it certainly was presented at discovery (legal
disclosure).
I remain convinced none of it would have passed muster in any
Court, however some people find a lever and use it. The cheapest
way out then is to pay up.

Jes' something to think about, eh?

Bill

« Last Edit: May 05, 2018, 09:14:37 pm by eltalia »

Offline cao

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2018, 10:23:21 pm »
I have no clue on the legal issues, but I think they look pretty cool.  You and your bees done a good job. 

Offline Dallasbeek

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2018, 03:37:47 pm »
Eitalia, we have an old saying that a town too small or too poor to support one lawyer CAN support two.  Get two lawyers involved in any disagreement and they can turn it into a big deal. (Full disclosure: I've been a lawyer since 1971.)
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline moebees

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2018, 06:32:40 pm »
A local beekeeper showed me her honeycomb set up recently, she used made I think it was 8 ply wood miniboxs to fill in an empty frame, the bees would fill in these mini-plywood boxs with comb and she found a cheap square plastic container with a lid that looks great, and she cuts out the honey from the plywood boxs and puts it in the container.

Hope the plywood doesn't contain formaldehyde.  Probably does.
Bee-keeping is like raising Martians  - Isabella Rosselini

Offline omnimirage

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2018, 06:52:28 pm »
220, that product looks incredible. How did you seal it in the package like that? Does it not matter that the sides of the comb isn't filled with honey yet?

Let us know what the food authorities say! I share Bamboo's concerns particularly regarding the nail. Best to be safe and get government approval.'

So formaldehyde is commonly found in ply wood?

Offline Bamboo

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2018, 07:08:08 pm »


So formaldehyde is commonly found in ply wood?
Yes it is the most common form of glue used in manufacturing plywood. They do have what are called eco glues now that have lower emissions of formaldehyde, but is a basic ingredient of all manufactured board glues including particle board, MDF and plywood.

I remember years ago that comb honey was available in a wooden box. It was just very thinly sliced pine about 6mm thick with dovetailed joints on the corners. Haven't seen it in ages though.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2018, 11:50:06 pm »


So formaldehyde is commonly found in ply wood?
Yes it is the most common form of glue used in manufacturing plywood. They do have what are called eco glues now that have lower emissions of formaldehyde, but is a basic ingredient of all manufactured board glues including particle board, MDF and plywood.

I remember years ago that comb honey was available in a wooden box. It was just very thinly sliced pine about 6mm thick with dovetailed joints on the corners. Haven't seen it in ages though.
Thanks for the heads up Mark... I'll check this out further as I am a big fan of
3Ply (6mm) of late. It is said to be "organic" but as we know organic
is many grades of philosophy to many people.
That honeycomb was mounted in balsa, from memory, but seeing as how we don't
let our kids today play with balsa I wonder if there is why it is not around today?

Custard apples done.. pix coming :-)))

Bill

Offline eltalia

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2018, 11:52:50 pm »
Eitalia, we have an old saying that a town too small or too poor to support one lawyer CAN support two.  Get two lawyers involved in any disagreement and they can turn it into a big deal. (Full disclosure: I've been a lawyer since 1971.)

Yup.. the only  two Cadillacs in Town ;-))))

Bill

Offline 220

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2018, 02:30:57 am »
220, that product looks incredible. How did you seal it in the package like that? Does it not matter that the sides of the comb isn't filled with honey yet?

Let us know what the food authorities say! I share Bamboo's concerns particularly regarding the nail. Best to be safe and get government approval.'

So formaldehyde is commonly found in ply wood?

Packaging is just a normal household vacuum sealer. First one I hit the automatic button and with the sucking out of the air it crushed some of the comb. Had a bit of a play manually, didn't apply as much vacuum and they came up Ok without crushing the comb.
You really want them fully capped, I threw these on when our flow was pretty much over, I didn't expect them to do much at all with them but they were obviously still finding something.
Putting the box on so late in the season was just to see if it could work. I now have my answer and also know the vacuum sealing will work.
Have sent a couple to my brother to display and see what interest they generate at the markets. It will certainly make preparing comb for sale a simple task and they have a real novelty factor to them.

I have emailed the food authority again today chasing a reply to the questions asked back in January.


Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2018, 08:51:32 am »
220,
When emailing the government or any business for that matter, the best way to get an answer is to get a name of the person you are sending it to and put their name in the subject line. Works even better if you can CC their boss. The chances of getting an answer go way up.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline 220

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2018, 05:17:40 pm »
Its OK Jim I forwarded their original response from back in January that stated someone would respond as soon as they were able and enquired if they had yet had time to look at it. Had a answer back a few hours latter.

The original enquiry was
I am trying to find the relevant legislation that would need to be complied with for a hobby beekeeper to sell honey.
Packaging and labeling information is not a problem but I can not work out what catagory a hobby beekeeper would fall into what licencing requirements need to be met and if it varies depending on the harvest method used.
I am looking a 3 separate harvest options
 
1. Frames are taken from beehives and sold as is., no processing at all
2. Honey is extracted directly from a flow hive on the farm into retail containers.
3. Frames are taken from beehives to a processing room, uncapped, spun in an extractor and then into retail containers.


The response I received yesterday was

Thank you for your email, there is no Food Authority Licence required for the Activity you have described. Manufacturing and wholesaling businesses produce and sell foods by wholesale with a limited or no retail sales business component.
At a very small scale it may include home-based businesses.
Businesses need to:
1.   notify the NSW Food Authority of their business details and activities
2.   meet relevant food standards
3.   prepare for and be regularly audited and inspected


What I take from it is they do not view comb sales as any different to honey sales, if there is a retail component to it then it is just local council approval. 

Offline Bamboo

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Re: Comb Honey Sales
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2018, 05:35:11 pm »


That honeycomb was mounted in balsa, from memory, but seeing as how we don't
let our kids today play with balsa I wonder if there is why it is not around today?

Custard apples done.. pix coming :-)))

Bill

Bill
Of course Balsa!! 
You are right, my memory must be going haha. Yes lots of fun with Balsa as a kid, I can't tell you how many planes I built out of it. I had a passion for flying from about 5 and consumed anything to do with aircraft, flying etc.  Used to love the final stages after putting the paper on wings fuselage etc applying the dope which tightened everything up and made the finished product, till I crashed it and had to rebuild lol.
Then I finally got my pilots licence not long after my driving licence. I can still remember the elation of my first solo, I Yahooed the entire circuit. It was a surprise as normally it takes about 20 hours of flying time before they let you loose on your own and I only had 6 hours so came out of the blue. But man what a feeling, something that I had wanted to do all my life I was on a high all that week and couldn't wait for the next weekend!
Looking forward to the Custard Apple pics.
Cheers
Mark

 

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