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Author Topic: Ideal Frames To Full Depth  (Read 400 times)

Offline BrianP_69

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Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« on: October 30, 2018, 06:14:52 pm »
Hi guys.
5 days ago we caught a swarm & placed them in a 5 frame Nuc box. The only frames available were 3 Ideal frames drawn out & sticky from extraction. I?d like to inspect this weekend but want the Nuc to be 5 frame full depth. Can I checkerboard the brood by moving 2 frames of brood out to the edge on each side & placing full depth not drawn comb inside those frames. So for example it would be on one side, ideal brood full depth foundation ideal brood etc.

Offline beepro

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2018, 07:41:28 pm »
If the night time temp. is warm enough then you may be able to get away with this manipulation.  If it is cold at
night then you will have the chilled broods situation.   I say let this hive grow more before converting to the full deep frames.
Is your night time temp. warm enough?

Online cao

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2018, 09:01:29 pm »
I would move any frames with brood to one side and put your full depth frames to the other side.  With 3 drawn frames, the queen should have eggs laid in at least a couple of those.  They may have started to draw comb from the bottom of those frames if the nuc box is full depth.  I would mark the ideal frames and just leave them in the nuc if they have brood in them.  You can always rotate them out later once they are more established.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2018, 09:45:59 pm »
The 3 frames are over on the right side of the Nuc, pushed hard up to the side, it is a full depth Nuc but the guy that lent it to me only uses ideals for honey collection.
I won't know how she's laying until I check on them this weekend. If she's laying ok, I'll add another 2 full depth frames to complete the Nuc.
When the time comes to replace those ideal frames, do I checker board an ideal brood frame with a full frame ( Undrawn, new beekeeper problem ) which will eventually see the ideals out to the sides, then omitted altogether.
I'll only be checker boarding once the population has increased.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2018, 03:42:14 am »
If the night time temp. is warm enough then you may be able to get away with this manipulation.  If it is cold at
night then you will have the chilled broods situation.   I say let this hive grow more before converting to the full deep frames.
Is your night time temp. warm enough?

Here at the moment we are getting 18deg min to 24deg max, celcius ( 64.4 to 75.2 )

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2018, 03:59:46 am »
Hi guys.
5 days ago we caught a swarm & placed them in a 5 frame Nuc box. The only frames available were 3 Ideal frames drawn out & sticky from extraction. I?d like to inspect this weekend but want the Nuc to be 5 frame full depth. Can I checkerboard the brood by moving 2 frames of brood out to the edge on each side & placing full depth not drawn comb inside those frames. So for example it would be on one side, ideal brood full depth foundation ideal brood etc.

what you could have easily done is given 3 frames of foundation and two empty frames either side. Perfect comb would have been the result. I put swarms into boxes that only contain empty frames with a guidance of some sort so they know where to put the comb. no drawn comb needed for a swarm. needs a flow though, cause they don`t have stores, or feeding.

Offline blackforest beekeeper

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2018, 04:32:50 am »
Hi guys.
5 days ago we caught a swarm & placed them in a 5 frame Nuc box. The only frames available were 3 Ideal frames drawn out & sticky from extraction. I?d like to inspect this weekend but want the Nuc to be 5 frame full depth. Can I checkerboard the brood by moving 2 frames of brood out to the edge on each side & placing full depth not drawn comb inside those frames. So for example it would be on one side, ideal brood full depth foundation ideal brood etc.

what you could have easily done is given 3 frames of foundation and two empty frames either side. Perfect comb would have been the result. I put swarms into boxes that only contain empty frames with a guidance of some sort so they know where to put the comb. no drawn comb needed for a swarm. needs a flow though, cause they don`t have stores, or feeding.

maybe I do some explaining why I do this:
first: wiring in foundation is work. Foundation is expensive. For Bioland-wax in a block I would pay 30 Euro per Kilo plus VAT. Then I need to have it converted to foundation, another 3 or 4 Euro / kg.
If I let them build their own comb, i don`t have the expenses, the work. But I get a lot of wax worth 30 Euros per Kilo later on....
Also I consider natural comb the better home for bees, if  possible.
All my nucs have to build as much natural comb as possible.

Also: natural comb is beautiful.

Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2018, 06:16:26 am »
Hi guys.
5 days ago we caught a swarm & placed them in a 5 frame Nuc box. The only frames available were 3 Ideal frames drawn out & sticky from extraction. I?d like to inspect this weekend but want the Nuc to be 5 frame full depth. Can I checkerboard the brood by moving 2 frames of brood out to the edge on each side & placing full depth not drawn comb inside those frames. So for example it would be on one side, ideal brood full depth foundation ideal brood etc.

what you could have easily done is given 3 frames of foundation and two empty frames either side. Perfect comb would have been the result. I put swarms into boxes that only contain empty frames with a guidance of some sort so they know where to put the comb. no drawn comb needed for a swarm. needs a flow though, cause they don`t have stores, or feeding.

Thanks for the tip.
This is my first swarm collection & the guy that got called to get it phoned me to meet him at the location. He has collected 8 swarms in the last few weeks & now has 50 hives, he doesn't want any more so he called me. He was on site with a Nuc box already set to go. I assumed he had full depth frames in there but a few days later he rang & told me they were ideal frames, hence my wanting to get them into full depth frames.

Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2018, 08:46:37 am »
For now just leave the ideals in place. I have deep nucs but I run mostly mediums, with the exception of newly purchased hives. As mentioned, add the deep frames to one side. Swarms are wax building machines. I have had several large swarms build comb 3 medium boxes full, with only one drawn frame and 9 foundation less frames and empty boxes below, in 10 days. You need to check this hive on day seven. It will probably be ready to move into a 10 frame box by then. If you wait any longer or even by then you may already need to cut out comb built below the ideal frames. Just put the cut comb into deep frames.
Jim
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Offline sawdstmakr

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2018, 08:54:37 am »
Here is a picture of one of them at 10 days.

[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]

3 fully drawn frames have already been moved into to the medium box on the left.
Jim
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2018, 03:21:23 pm »
I wrote this for deeps to mediums, but the concepts are the same for any size to any size:

There are a lot of options.  I tend to play it by ear.  The most straightforward of these options is a cutout. 

Next would be to put all but five frames of mediums in the bottom box, put a second box on and let the deeps "dangle" into the bottom box where you left out the frames.  Then fill that box out.  later you can pull the deeps out when they don't have any brood in them.  If you put them towards the outside they are more likely to not have brood.  You could also cut some two by lumber to fit that empty space under the five frames.  Two of them stacked would be 3" which would be correct.

You could put a five frame nuc box on top of the medium box with a board to cover the left over gap and wait for them to move down.

You can build a 3" tall, five frame wide shim and put it on one side and the deeps will hang into the medium at the right height.  Cover the gap with a board again.

You can use a deep box and fill the rest out with mediums and either cut a piece of closed cell styrofoam to fill the gap or just let them build comb on down and cut it off later and tie it into medium frames.

You can cut out two frames of brood, tie them into medium frames, and put them above an excluder with the queen and wait for the rest of the brood to emerge (putting it in by one of the above "dangle" or other methods) and then pull the deeps.

But all in all, I just don't recommend a nuc if the combs are not what you want, e.g. if they are deeps and you want mediums; or they are large cell and you want small cell; or they are on Langstroth equipment and you want a DE or a Warre' or a top bar hive.  Get a package instead.

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Offline BrianP_69

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Re: Ideal Frames To Full Depth
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2018, 02:20:11 am »
Thanks guys for all the advice posted, I really appreciate the guidance.
Day 7 today since we bought the swarm home so it was time for an inspection. The bees are going fantastic.
I didn't bother trying too hard to locate the Queen but I have some capped brood, plenty of larvae at different stages & heaps of eggs so she is doing a great job so far. They had a bit of pollen stored & quite a bit of nectar as well. I have left the ideal frames hard up against the right side of the Nuc box & added two more full depth frames with wax foundation to fill the Nuc.
I'll do another inspection on Saturday week, 9 days from now.