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Author Topic: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out  (Read 5407 times)

Alklar20

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Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« on: July 19, 2021, 11:12:27 pm »
I have a hive that was started from a swarm that was hived on June 21, I believe. It was hived in 3 medium boxes. I inspected it on July 3 and found that the bees had drawn out about half of the foundation in the top box and about a third of the foundation in the middle box; none was built out in the bottom box. I inspected them again on July 11 and it seemed that they hadn't built out any more foundation since the previous inspection (July 3). I inspected them again today (July 19) and found that they still hadn't built out. It seems that the bees were given too much space, so I removed the bottom box today; the hive is now down to 2 medium boxes. I started feeding them on July 3 and have been doing so ever since. It seems that feeding them is not helping them build out. All the built out comb is towards one side of the hive. The last nectar flow for the year in my location (Northwestern Washington), the blackberry flow, ended not that long ago. Given this, and the fact that feeding them is not helping, how should I get this hive to build out? Should I consolidate all of the frames with comb to one box? Should I keep on feeding them?
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Offline .30WCF

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2021, 11:17:10 pm »
How are you feeding them and what ratio is the syrup? Your kind of at the end of the drawing season, but you might get enough drawn to over winter with ample amounts of 1:1 or slightly thinner syrup.
You may do better to equalize the other hives and steal a frame or two if drawn from them if they can afford it to make up the difference.


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Offline .30WCF

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2021, 11:23:10 pm »
Do you have enough hives to steal some frames to build out the hives and not cripple the older hives? This time of year I wouldn?t take more than a frame or two from a fully drawn hive without having drawn comb to put back in, but one blank frame in ten hives isn?t so bad. Otherwise a combine if they don?t draw it out by mid August.


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Offline .30WCF

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Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2021, 11:24:32 pm »
Quote from: Alklar20 on July 19, 2021, 11:19:42 pm
Quote from: .30WCF on July 19, 2021, 11:17:10 pm
How are you feeding them and what ratio is the syrup? Your kind of at the end of the drawing season, but you might get enough drawn to over winter with ample amounts of 1:1 or slightly thinner syrup.
You may do better to equalize the other hives and steal a frame or two if drawn from them if they can afford it to make up the difference.


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1:1. Also, what do you mean by "equalize the other hives"?
Taking some from a stronger hive(s) to give to the weaker hive.
A honey frame from this one, a pollen frame from that one, and a brood frame from this one and do on.

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Offline .30WCF

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2021, 11:47:55 pm »
Wintering over in nucs is an option if you have that equipment. If you can get 10-15 frames in a double or tripple stack nuc. I do medium nucs as well as deep.


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Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2021, 12:05:15 am »
I would go with 1:2 syrup. all bees,  can build comb, but the most proficient are the bees around 12 days old. so move frames to make them do what you wish. Sorry something happened when trying to post.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2021, 03:13:34 am »
I can not speak for your area. According to a major beekeeper in the Georgia, NorthCarolina area: His bees will draw comb even after a flow if feed: 'Modified  for clarity': 1 part sugar to 1.5 parts water in a two gallon bucket feeder. This will stimulate them until about the middle of or just past the middle of September. After that you can not get them to draw comb under any circumstances.

 "By the time we get into late September they won't draw foundation no matter what you do" "If Syrup goes in fast and or thick its not very stimulating. But if it goes in slowly and its thin, it has a stimulative effect." "We can control that rate by how many holes we put into these plugs." (feeder cap). Bob Binnie
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 07:45:54 pm by Ben Framed »
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2021, 03:21:23 am »
What does the brood look like, how about the queen?  Asking as no mention it here, yet.   FYI, a hive that is queenless or  in midst of requeening itself, virgin queen, will not draw much comb. It seems like all progress goes on hold and there is alot of loitering around until the queen is active in the nest.
A swarm is typically an old queen.  Once the swarm has found a new home and gets established they will supercede the old queen. When the new queen is active and they are happy with her, then they off the old queen.
The timing of your swarm and your observations suggest to me that is a possibility for the pause in comb progress.
For your considerations.

Hope that helps!
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2021, 03:32:17 am »
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 20, 2021, 03:21:23 am
What does the brood look like, how about the queen?  Asking as no mention it here, yet.   FYI, a hive that is queen less or  in midst of requesting itself, virgin queen, will not draw comb. It seems all progress goes on hold and there is alot of loitering around until the queen is active in the nest.
A swarm is typically an old queen.  Once the swarm has found a new home and gets established they will supercede the old queen. When the new queen is active and they are happy with her, then they off the old queen.
The timing of your swarm and your observations suggest to me that is a possibility for the pause in comb progress.
For your considerations.

Hope that helps!

I agree Mr HoneyPump and good point, if there is no queen. June 21 is a late swarm for sure in many locations. On the other hand, if there is a capable queen and no flow in Alklar20s' location, then the feeding would come into play as long as Alklar20s' season permits as much. I would like to hear you opinion.   
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 03:53:20 am by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2021, 03:44:30 am »
Adding since you have been feeding since July 3 and if you have plenty of bees, and a laying queen, and pollen, they should be building up, Mr Honeypump has most likely hit the nail on the head.  :grin:
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2021, 11:48:51 am »
Quote
1.5 parts sugar water? Do you mean 1:5 sugar water, or 1.5 parts sugar to 1 part water, or something else perhaps?

One part sugar. One and one half part water.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2021, 11:52:55 am »
Syrup is mixed by Mass ratio (by weight), with the larger number being the sugar.

.. 1.5 to 1 syrup means
1.5 Kg sugar to 1 Kg water
OR
4 lb sugar to 2.6 lb water

.. 2 to 1 syrup means
2 Kg sugar to 1 Kg water
OR
4 lb sugar to 2 lb water

Hope that helps!
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2021, 01:18:23 pm »
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 20, 2021, 11:52:55 am
Syrup is mixed by Mass ratio (by weight), with the larger number being the sugar. ...

I learn something new every day here. I've been mixing sugar-water by volume ... 4 gallons water to 7 or 8 gallons of sugar ... 

Thanks HP.
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Offline Oldbeavo

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2021, 07:30:27 pm »
Hi CB
I am with your old formula, i have always been using vol:vol ratio for mixing syrup.
A vol:vol formula may produce a slightly stronger syrup but i don't think the difference would be significant, probably about !5% stronger.
We use 6kg of sugar to make 10 liters of syrup.
The variation in the moisture content of nectar would probably be same.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2021, 07:50:52 pm »
According to Mr Binnie in the same video, volume of water and sugar are close in weight, weighing about the same. So it really doesn't matter if you weight it or measure it. But the ratio does have an effect, depending on the desired results and time of year. . Thanks Mr HoneyPump.   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 08:20:24 pm by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 09:53:53 pm »
In terms of whether the mix is right for the bees or not, yeah it does not matter that much when mixing fairly light. Ultimately the bees will fix it to what they want it to be.

The density of granulated sugar is roughly 1.6 times more than water. If you mix by volume: mixing equal volumes of sugar and water together is going to be a 1.6 to 1 syrup, not a 1 to 1 syrup.    Mix any way you wish and what works for you and your bees. However, being in a technical profession, being clear on the method of measurement and the units when stating a number does matter, a-lot, .. at least to me it does.  When we tell each other 2:1 or 1:1 or 1.5:1 syrup , it does make a huge difference in the thickness of the syrup produced whether that spec is by mass or by volume.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 10:11:35 pm by TheHoneyPump »
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2021, 10:12:05 pm »
Quote from: TheHoneyPump on July 21, 2021, 09:53:53 pm
The density of granulated sugar is roughly 1.6 times more than water.  So if you mix by volume: mixing equal volumes of sugar and water together your syrup is going to be:   1.6 to 1
Mix the any way you wish and what works for you. However, being in a technical profession, being correct on the method of measurement and the units and stating a number does matter, .. at least to me it does.

I just did an experiment with an 8 oz empty jar. First I zeroed the weight of the jar, removed from the scale, filled with sugar weight 7.4 oz
I then emptied the same jar checked to make sure 0 weight still showed for accuracy and experiments sake, all good.  Filled the same jar to the same level with tap water. weight 7.9 oz

If I were mixing thousands of gallons of both sugar and water together this may be a financial concern to me with such a high volume. As a hobbyist mixing 5 gallons at a time with half and half volume sugar/water feed for my few hives, should I be concerned with such a small difference? Maybe I should be but Im not. lol.   
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2021, 12:25:59 am »
Quote
When we tell each other 2:1 or 1:1 or 1.5:1 syrup , it does make a huge difference in the thickness of the syrup produced whether that spec is by mass or by volume.

Yes I agree. I am the one who used the 1.5 sugar water statement in reply number 9. I went back and edited my reply to comply with my meaning to be accurate. When ask, I attempted to clarify my meaning in reply 15 by saying 1 part sugar to 1.5 parts water.  or 1:1.5



 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:06:15 am by Ben Framed »
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2021, 04:27:37 pm »
What is a `part` ?
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline paus

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Re: Hive Started from Swarm in Late June Won't Build Out
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2021, 07:18:43 pm »
In the south a "PART" used in this manner referrers to any like unit of measure, ie: pound , Kilo , pint etc.
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