Using 2 queen cells in mating nuc?

[BurleyBee]

I currently have 15 queen cells.  I?m only planning on making up 6-7 mating Nucs.  Do any of y?all ever drop in 2 queen cells instead of 1?  I?d end up pinching off the extras and I hate wasting them.

[iddee]

I always leave 2 or more swarm cells when I split a hive and move the queen. I use only one cell when I graft, so I don't think it matters if you leave 1, 2, or even 3.

[TheHoneyPump]

Putting two cells into a nuc is wasteful.  It also stages the situation for a fight and potential injury to the queens.
Want a better option?  The reserve method is better, imho. Cage each extra cell with 5 young attendants, with a small smear of honey and pollen in the cage. Bank them in top of a good decent hive, above a queen excluder. 3 days after expected emergence go check the nucs in the evening.  Any nuc cell that failed to emerge or was torn down by the bees, or has a runty/impaired queen would be replaced by a nice virgin queen that is by then walking about in one of the cages.
The virgins are best used under 10 days but can still work out up to 20d later.
Sometimes the stars and sunshine line up such that the cell put into the nuc emerges, she gets mated quickly, pull her out and then introduce one of the caged virgins.  Or she gets lost in mating flights. Again, go grab a caged VQ and keep the nuc running.
In other words do not waste cells by doubling up or tossing them.  There are things that can happen that will bring you up short of the 6-8 that you want. Having some VQs in reserve to keep things rolling is good insurance.
Queens is a chance and numbers game. 2 out of 3.  Play to the odds.  Always start 30 to 50 percent more than you need, and do not cut yourself short in the middle of progress. Those extras get used up along the way. At the back end, whatever is left allows the beekeeper to be choosy about which queens to keep for him/her self.  The rest can be sold or discarded.
 
Hope that helps.

[BurleyBee]

It also stages the situation for a fight and potential injury to the queens

Main reason I was concerned about doing it.  I had thought of banking, just haven?t tried that yet. 

[TheHoneyPump]

Opportunity knocks then.  Time to try it and experiment.

The critical requirements to successfully have healthy (and long lived) viable VQs are: 1) the attendants in the cage 2) the pollen/honey IN the cage. The food in the cage provides for her to feed herself immediately on emerging. New queens are still developing and are voraciously hungry soon as they come out of the cell.  The attendants are crucial to help her emerge, to groom and massage her as she hardens. The food in the cage also provides for the attendants to fatten and be able to feed her jelly so she can continue to develop post emergence.  If those two requirements of attendants and pollen/honey are overlooked, the VQs will not have a great start.  They will not fully develop, will be feeble and short lived, and the mortality rate will be 50% or more per day; with the batch completely dying out within a few days of emerging.  Get it right and up to 2-3 weeks later you still have nice very strong fully developed ripe and ready virgins that can be used up replacing nuc failures.

Cells puts the work tasks and consumed resources on a rigid schedule. Banking VQs provides a reserve and some flexibility. There are nuances to working with banked VQs, but once you have those figured out they can be very successful. Give it a go.

[BurleyBee]

Thanks for info.  Will definitely have to give a try.

[Michael Bush]

I would definitely put two cells in before I would just waste them.  You could also use the cells to requeen other hives.  Just put the cells in and it should go off as a supersedure.

[BurleyBee]

What?s the earliest y?all pull cells from starter?  I?ve built an incubator.  I also have a hive that?s ready for a big split.  I have cell protectors.  I grafted Thursday. 

[Ben Framed]

Cage each extra cell with 5 young attendants, with a small smear of honey and pollen in the cage. Bank them in top of a good decent hive, above a queen excluder.

I have not heard of this method before and I like what I hear. What type cage do you recommend or prefer to place these cells and attendant bees in? What cage gives you the best results? Thanks

[TheHoneyPump]

Roller, Nicot

[Ben Framed]

Roller, Nicot

Awesome! I have plenty that I offered to a couple of guys here, Neither took me up on the free prepaid postage gift. I am glad they did not lol.  I am going to try your method. Again and as always, thank you Mr HoneyPump.

[Bee North]

You could also use the cells to requeen other hives.  Just put the cells in and it should go off as a supersedure.

Hi Michael

Just to confirm ....if you have a failing or old queen you could add a cell, without removing the old queen and they might use the cell to supersede her?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge which is always greatly appreciated.

[TheHoneyPump]

What?s the earliest y?all pull cells from starter?  I?ve built an incubator.  I also have a hive that?s ready for a big split.  I have cell protectors.  I grafted Thursday.

Day 4/5 from egg, the tiniest larvae you can see and scoop.
- Graft and place cups in a stuffed QL cell starter

Day 6/7 from egg
- move from QL cell starter to QR cell finisher.
(cells are started, cups are filled with jelly and cells rims are 10-30% drawn. Move to finisher. A great finisher is the centre of 3rd box above queen excluder on a strong queenrite hive.)
- cells could be left in the starter to be finished, but there is a high likelihood that the starter will cut back (remove) the number of cells they had started.  They will not finish them all.

Day 10 from egg
- move from finisher to incubator
(Cells are capped on day 9, move to incubator the day after capping is observed.  The very best incubator available is meticulously designed, precision controlled, and is supplied by the world renowned experts in queen rearing.   It is .. .. .. .. a beehive. Place capped cells in a slightly off centre position in the 3rd box above a queen excluder on a strong queenrite hive)

Days 11 thru 14 from egg (critical period)
- DO NOT DISTURB, DO NOT MOVE, DO NOT LOOKEELOO.

Day 14/15 from egg
- cage cells with honey/pollen in the cage with 5 attendants. OR place into nucs.

Days 15 thru 17 from egg
- Cells are emerging.

Day 18/19 from egg
- Check out the beauties in the nucs. Cull the feable, tiny, deformed
- if cells were caged; - count the number of bees in the cage. If 5 the cell is a dud, pinch and discard.  If 6 in the cage, one of them is the new queen, check her for health and vitality.

Day 20 thru 30 from egg
- stay out.  Leave undisturbed to mate and start laying
- if caged, replenish honey/pollen to cage at 4 day intervals.

Day 32-36 from egg
- cull whatever is not laying. Requeen with caged VQ or Shake out or combine failed nucs/splits.

Day 38+ from egg
- cull/pinch/toss any caged VQs not used.

Hope that helps!

[BurleyBee]

I just moved to incubator and noticed the packed royal jelly in cups is pretty much gone.  Is this a bad sign?  Obviously they?re capped, just figured there would be a good bit left.

[BurleyBee]

Also, HP, I appreciate your long detailed responses.  As well as everyone else.

[TheHoneyPump]

Excess jelly is ideal.  It is not a bad thing if there is little left. If there is none left the finished queen will likely be feeble or/and runty.  Tiny Teenas I call them.  Lots of jelly makes big queen, short of jelly stunts growth. 
What it means is the builder/finisher was not motivated enough or not strong enough so the nurse bees gave just barely enough jelly to the cell to finish it. As long as there is still a bit of jelly left in the cup when she is done cooking she will be fine.
Making good cells and robust VQs is the easy part. Although time ticks by on the calendar and is frustrating when a batch is bad or a rogue destroys them.
Getting them mated is where the real work and consumption of resources comes.  So do your best to make good juicy cells and cull out the stubby and runty before moving them to the mating stage of spending the time and resources

[Michael Bush]

>Just to confirm ....if you have a failing or old queen you could add a cell, without removing the old queen and they might use the cell to supersede her?

Yes.  Back before the Russians were introduced I would say the odds were about 80-90% success.  With Russians it's more iffy.  They are very picky about the genetics of their queens...

[Ben Framed]

>Just to confirm ....if you have a failing or old queen you could add a cell, without removing the old queen and they might use the cell to supersede her?

Yes.  Back before the Russians were introduced I would say the odds were about 80-90% success.  With Russians it's more iffy.  They are very picky about the genetics of their queens...

Before I read your reply about this, I would have been reluctant to try this, as I would have thought I might be promoting a swarm.



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[Bee North]

>Just to confirm ....if you have a failing or old queen you could add a cell, without removing the old queen and they might use the cell to supersede her?

Yes.  Back before the Russians were introduced I would say the odds were about 80-90% success.  With Russians it's more iffy.  They are very picky about the genetics of their queens...

Thanks Michael....that's news to me! Im always learning and grateful for the sharing of knowledge.

I have an old girl that I will try this with when I graft this spring unless the girls beat me to it.

I'm also interested in your question Ben about swarming.

I dont think the queen I want to replace has the numbers for swarming. If they.did throw her out by swarming it wouldnt be with many bees I would think.

[Ben Framed]

>Just to confirm ....if you have a failing or old queen you could add a cell, without removing the old queen and they might use the cell to supersede her?

Yes.  Back before the Russians were introduced I would say the odds were about 80-90% success.  With Russians it's more iffy.  They are very picky about the genetics of their queens...

Thanks Michael....that's news to me! Im always learning and grateful for the sharing of knowledge.

I have an old girl that I will try this with when I graft this spring unless the girls beat me to it.

I'm also interested in your question Ben about swarming.

I dont think the queen I want to replace has the numbers for swarming. If they.did throw her out by swarming it wouldnt be with many bees I would think.

I don't think you or I will have anything to be concerned about now that we have heard this from Mr. Bush. I have much trust in his experience.

[Bee North]

Agreed Ben....I'm not concerned at all.

I'm looking forward to trying this. I was planning to pinch my old Alpha and feeling bad about it. She deserves a better ending, always been a pleasure to work and given me multiple queens. Now she can go out naturally.

Happy days.

[Oldbeavo]

If you have an old queen that you think may swarm, she is doing a good job as there would not be a big enough hive of bees if she was not doing the job.
If you want to retain her for her genetics, then put her in a nuc with some bees and graft eggs or make other nucs.

[Bee North]

Good points Oldbeavo. Thanks mate.

I grafted from her all last season. My yards are full of her offspring.

I'm going to select another queen this season just to mix the gene pool up a bit.

I've had to carry her these last couple of months giving her the odd frame of bees and honey to see the hive through. Shes performing under expectations compared to my other hives which cant continue.

I cant keep her, but I cant pinch her either. Supersedure sounds like a good alternative.

[Duane]

Agreed Ben....I'm not concerned at all.

I'm looking forward to trying this. I was planning to pinch my old Alpha and feeling bad about it. She deserves a better ending, always been a pleasure to work and given me multiple queens. Now she can go out naturally.

Happy days.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but that means she will starve or be starved to death?

[Duane]

Day 6/7 from egg
- move from QL cell starter to QR cell finisher.
(cells are started, cups are filled with jelly and cells rims are 10-30% drawn. Move to finisher. A great finisher is the centre of 3rd box above queen excluder on a strong queenrite hive.)
- cells could be left in the starter to be finished, but there is a high likelihood that the starter will cut back (remove) the number of cells they had started.  They will not finish them all.

Day 10 from egg
- move from finisher to incubator
(Cells are capped on day 9, move to incubator the day after capping is observed.  The very best incubator available is meticulously designed, precision controlled, and is supplied by the world renowned experts in queen rearing.   It is .. .. .. .. a beehive. Place capped cells in a slightly off centre position in the 3rd box above a queen excluder on a strong queenrite hive)

So is the cell finisher and incubator the same thing, and you don't need to move the cells?

[Bee North]

Agreed Ben....I'm not concerned at all.

I'm looking forward to trying this. I was planning to pinch my old Alpha and feeling bad about it. She deserves a better ending, always been a pleasure to work and given me multiple queens. Now she can go out naturally.

Happy days.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but that means she will starve or be starved to death?

Hi Duane,
I believe you are correct. My understanding is once the new queen is mated and laying the old queen is "ignored".

If your questioning why I would prefer her to starve, rather than pinch her, that's simple....It's what I believed to be a more natural ending.
That probably wont make sense to some people and thats ok too.
I pinch queens from pissy hives when I have to but I hate it!

[Ben Framed]

So is the cell finisher and incubator the same thing, and you don't need to move the cells?

They are not the same Duane. The cell finisher is the place where bees take good care of queen cells when they are removed from the cell starter. In the cell finisher they are capped and taken good care of until they are ready to go into the incubator. The use of an incubator is not absolutely necessary but a great, safe place for QCs when in a cell protector, protecting them from a possible early hatching queen, along with a good place to transport these finished cells when ready to be placed in mating nucs for instance.  As HoneyPump explained above. Bob Binnie explains this in detail, (the use of each of these cell starter and finisher), in his video (How We Produce Queens). There are others which also explain this in great detail. Richard Noel who explains the difference in great detail, from Brittany France also uses a cell starter and finisher. Though their methods do differ but sightly.