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Author Topic: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar  (Read 5261 times)

Offline yes2matt

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"Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« on: November 11, 2017, 02:48:20 pm »
Hi y'all! it's been a while since I've been on here. Been a hard year in the bee yard, really a reflection of neglect, which is a reflection of "life getting in the way." 

Anyway...

My remaining colonies are small and underresourced going into winter. I have them on constant 2:1 sugar feed, and just bought some Ultra Bee powder, because especially the smaller colonies have almost no pollen stored (!!!).

Last year I was pleased with the "mountain camp" method of sugar feed. In the spring, some of the sugar had been consumed, various amounts by colony, and the sugar I had put on dry was by then an almost solid cake, which made me believe it had absorbed a significant amount of moisture (my location has pretty high humidity).  My question: can I put the Ultra Bee powder in a little pile there with the sugar on the newspaper, so that they can get it when they want it in the same way?

A related question: If I make some patties using the recipe on the back of the jar, what is an appropriate substitute for "HFCS or medium invert or Pro-Sweet"? Honey? 2:1 sugar?

Thanks yall for beeing here!

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2017, 03:42:04 pm »
Hello Matt:
Invert table sugar (sucrose) is glucose and fructose.  Pro Sweet contains, fructose, glucose, sucrose, and high frutose corn syrup(HFCS) with a trace of protein.

To make things simple, you can heat 2X table sugar and boil for say 15-20 minutes that is 234F the boiling point.  If the temp creeps up above  234F, reduce heat as higher temps create toxic sugars.  At this temp, sugar inverts to glucose and fructose and will make a fondant for winter feeding.  Now this is not the same as prosweet.  Honey bees must digest (invert) table sugar and this takes energy away from the bees due to digestion.  Digested sugar turns into fructose and glucose.  These simple sugars of glucose and fructose do not require digestion and are absorbed directly into the blood stream of the bee.  So boiling the 2X sugar saves the bees energy, you get more bang for your buck as the end product does not require digestion and remember digestion requires energy.

Google or YouTube honey bee fondant for more exact, step by step details.

There are many ways to winter feed.  I am sure other beeks will advise you properly as to their own method.  I have read some beeks just add a little water to sugar and make into patty form.  This is certainly easier.  Your choice.

Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2017, 04:22:30 pm »
Thanks Van, I didn't understand (still don't really) about sugar inversion. I *did* pay attention in chemistry, but there were also some distractions sitting behind and beside me :)

Will fondant, or a patty, absorb moisture? I'm imagining it would.

And I guess I wonder about mixing the protein supplement with the carbohydrate, because I would expect the bees to manage them separately.

I'll go ahead and try to cook up some "invert syrup" and see how that goes.

Offline Jim134

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2017, 04:33:06 pm »
       If bees are not Raising brood..There is no need for pollen ..
 I know where I live In central New England  this happen sometime the end of February .


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Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2017, 05:24:39 pm »
Matt, I know what you mean about distractions, blue eyed no less.
I'll try to simplify:

Sucrose, table sugar is composed of two smaller sugars linked together, glucose and fructose.  Sugar is to large to be absorbed into the blood stream.  So we first have to break the link making the large sugar molecule into two smaller sugars, which is fructose and glucose.  This link holding the fructose and glucose together is broker by a process we call inverting.  That is we invert sucrose into its two smaller sugars (glucose, frutose)which are small enough to be absorbed into the blood stream.

Want to make table sugar,,,, just add glucose and fructose then chill while stirring and walla, enjoy table sugar.  Much easier to extract from sugar cane or sugar beet, just trying to simplify.

Lil John, MB, Ace, Jim, others,  could you please explain, you are much better my man(men.)
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2017, 06:43:30 pm »
Van,
I think you did an excellent job of explaining it.
Jim
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Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2017, 08:31:01 pm »
       If bees are not Raising brood..There is no need for pollen ..
 I know where I live In central New England  this happen sometime the end of February .
We're not quite turned in yet.  We still have asters and dandelions abloom, and I see the bees bringing some (meager) pollen through the entrance. Tho the temps just turned down a couple days ago, so they might be done. 

I would never even think to supplement protein, except that my smaller colonies have almost no stored pollen at all. I was thinking to put the Ultra Bee powder on a paper plate on the top frames with an inch+ shim so they could take it down to store it. Or in a pile on the newspaper separate from the dry sugar. So they could take one or the other as needed. But I gather that's not how it's done :)

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2017, 11:04:22 pm »
You can community open feed ultra bee pollen.  Use a jar, can or what ever with one end open, the opposite end sealed.  Hand from a tree limb, add ultra bee, place sticks on top of pollen powder,  the sticks are for the bees to cling on and clean themselves, also served as a landing board,  the sticks must go all the way to the back of container and stick out a few inches at the entrance.

Community feed.  Ultra bee pollen substitute has lemon grass extract.  The bees will find the feeder in a few days cause of the scent of the lemon grass.  I tilt my feeder, open end down and faced away from prevailing wind.  Best if you leave a lip on the front, tape will do so as to prevent pollen from falling out.  My bees love ultra bee pollen sub.

This time of year, the bees will not need much.  My bees are on my ultra bee every day with temps above 52F.
Blessings

Offline Robo

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2017, 11:35:02 pm »
  My question: can I put the Ultra Bee powder in a little pile there with the sugar on the newspaper, so that they can get it when they want it in the same way?

Absolutely.  If they are under resourced,  they could very well be under nourished as well and not properly prepared for winter with fattened up winter bees.  I would get the pollen substitute on them ASAP as you still have time for them to raise winter bees.  Direct feeding is your best bet if they are weak.  It takes effort and resource for them to open feed pollen.  If you give them copious amounts direct feed, they can raise brood more easily and faster.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 04:08:05 am »
The bees will find the feeder in a few days cause of the scent of the lemon grass.  I tilt my feeder, open end down and faced away from prevailing wind.  Best if you leave a lip on the front, tape will do so as to prevent pollen from falling out.  My bees love ultra bee pollen sub.

Bees are currently taking dry feed in SC.... but I like robo's take on the issue...


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Offline little john

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 05:22:40 am »
Lil John, MB, Ace, Jim, others,  could you please explain, you are much better my man(men.)

Not at all - that's an excellent explanation.

The only comment I'd tack onto that, is a clarification of what the expression partially-inverted sucrose means.

A sucrose molecule has either become inverted (i.e. separated, as explained) or not: there's no such thing as a partially-inverted molecule of sucrose.  Partially-inverted refers to a state in which some percentage of the sucrose syrup has become inverted, but not all of it.

Some people have got it into their heads that partially-inverted means that ALL of the molecules have somehow got themselves started towards inversion - but that's not the case - the expression refers to percentage.

LJ
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2017, 06:16:55 am »
Be careful with direct feeding. Add small amounts so that the bees can consume it in 2 to 3 days. Small hive beetles will lay their eggs in it and it is warm enough in the hive for the larvae to develop.
Temps in your area should be to cold for the SHB larvae to develop in an open feeder.
Jim
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Offline Robo

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 08:22:27 am »
Be careful with direct feeding. Add small amounts so that the bees can consume it in 2 to 3 days. Small hive beetles will lay their eggs in it and it is warm enough in the hive for the larvae to develop.

Good point Jim.  We have very little issue with SHB up here in the north, so it often slips my mind.   Will SHB lay eggs in dry pollen substitute?   I've only seen it happen with patties, but then again I'm not in prime SHB territory.
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Offline texanbelchers

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2017, 08:57:41 am »
Open feeding has issues, but they are outside the hive.   My humidity doesn't allow sub to stay dry,  then the SHB and other critters move in.  I made 2 feeders similar to scbee, but something physically destroyed one and the other was slimmed; both within 2 weeks.

Van, Arkansas, USA

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2017, 10:11:20 am »
{Will SHB lay eggs in dry pollen substitute?}

Robo, in N Arkansas I have never seen SHB in dry pollen substitute and this area is swarming with SHB.  I open feed as described earlier.  Pollen patties are another story, that is just asking for SHB problems.

My problem with open community feeding sub. pollen is with raccoons and possums.  I hang my feeders from 1/2 steel pole designed for bird feeding.  Coons can't or won't climb the small diameter steel pole.  If squirrels try, I grease the steel pole.

Now TexasB, has a good comment about humidity in the Houston area causing subsequent problems with powdered pollen.

Thanks Jim and Lil John for your comments.
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Offline Robo

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2017, 10:17:08 am »
{Will SHB lay eggs in dry pollen substitute?}
Robo, in N Arkansas I have never seen SHB in dry pollen substitute and this area is swarming with SHB.  I open feed as described earlier.  Pollen patties are another story, that is just asking for SHB problems.

Thanks,  so it sounds like direct feeding dry pollen substitute may be the best method for a few weak hives.   No need to have them waste the effort/resource to go gather at a remote feeder.
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Offline sc-bee

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2017, 10:30:38 am »
I do know feeding patties and shb is an issue. I have never feed patties or dry inside the hive. If shb hit the dry feed then wouldn't the bag in my open shed be full of shb? Now the pollen getting wet in the feeder would be another issues. Pollen in traps on hives if left a few day can become shb issues, so I hear. I can see that because shb would use the pollen tray also as a hiding place to escape the bees.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2017, 04:20:20 am »
Be careful with direct feeding. Add small amounts so that the bees can consume it in 2 to 3 days. Small hive beetles will lay their eggs in it and it is warm enough in the hive for the larvae to develop.

Good point Jim.  We have very little issue with SHB up here in the north, so it often slips my mind.   Will SHB lay eggs in dry pollen substitute?   I've only seen it happen with patties, but then again I'm not in prime SHB territory.
I have oil trays on all of my hives but I have not added oil for a long time. The trays collect a lot of pollen and if I do not clean the trays every week, the larvae will grow and pupate in the trays. I also have very high humidity so that may bee different in other areas.
I do not use dry pollen substitute so I cannot answer that.
Jim
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Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 03:08:59 pm »
Well, here's what I've done. I made some inverted sugar patties. Wow, that takes a lot of electrical energy to do, and I wonder if the invertaise protein is more efficient. I didn't add pollen sub to the mix.

And I put a Swiffer pad on the top of the frames in the corner, to make a plate. And a pile of the protein powder on top of that. And an inch shim. I still have the liquid feeder on, so I'll save the sugar patties for later.

See if they take it, and how long til it's gone.

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Offline AR Beekeeper

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2017, 03:38:10 pm »
Let us know how many honey bees you trap with the Swiffer pad plate when the bees go for the pollen sub.

Offline paus

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2017, 03:49:15 pm »
I gave the swifter pads a try they caught a few bees a few more SHB.  The ladies propilized ( glued it to frames) wasted a lot of resources and for me a total failure.

Offline texanbelchers

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2017, 01:10:12 am »
I gave the swifter pads a try they caught a few bees a few more SHB.  The ladies propilized ( glued it to frames) wasted a lot of resources and for me a total failure.
Same experience here.   They hid under it; if I remembered,  I could squash before moving it.  Far fewer caught in the mesh.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2017, 06:55:06 am »
I gave the swifter pads a try they caught a few bees a few more SHB.  The ladies propilized ( glued it to frames) wasted a lot of resources and for me a total failure.
Same experience here.   They hid under it; if I remembered,  I could squash before moving it.  Far fewer caught in the mesh.
Same here.
Jim
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Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2017, 12:31:49 am »
Update: no beetles stuck on the pad. No bees either. I saw bees playing in the pile of powder and some appearing to eat it, but the pile size has not diminished much in a week.

I had some extra "fondant" that I cooked according to a youtube recipe and it was too soft so I put it on another "plate." The bees were definitely interested in that!  But also no much has disappeared in a week.

It's been warm, reaching low 60s during the day, 30s at night, and just a little rain.

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Offline yes2matt

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Re: "Mountain camp" Pollen w/ sugar
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2017, 10:07:22 am »
Another update. This is a different hive than the above. This colony has taken down quite a bit of their inverted-sugar cakes and almost all of their pollen substitute.

Pro tip: if you get tired and leave the hot candy in the kitchenaid overnight, then wake up to a solid bowl of candy, you can put the whole thing - sugar, bowl, and mixer together - in the oven at 225 and it will soften up. :)

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