Few Bees: Disease or weakness?

[Duane]

I had asked this in the general forum, but maybe this is a more appropriate place.

My hive looked like it had great promise early spring.  Lots of bees, bringing in pollen, and then suddenly there was a decrease.  I had a slide-in under my screened bottom board and when I pulled it out, there was about an inch of dead bees on the bottom.  I at first thought maybe disease, but the larva weren't stringy, and so then thought European Foul Brood, but from what I read, I wasn't sure it was that.  Then I thought with all the cold weather we were having, maybe they died from starvation or coldness and then just abandoned the brood.  But after a month, I would have expected an increase in bee numbers.  There's just a handful of bees clustered on the front corner insides of two frames.  I didn't get a good look at what brood they had, but the caps looked normal to me.  Just maybe a dozen.  They still have several frames of honey and there's pollen cells scattered around.

If I had other bees, I would give up on this hive.  But since this is the only one I have, I'd like to save it, if for no other reason than a challenge with how few bees there are.  Anyone have any guesses as to what happened?  Any suggestions as to what I should do at this point?  Any certain things I should check for to determine if disease?  Because I'd hate to give the honey to any swarms I catch if it's diseased.

[BeeMaster2]

Reduce the hive to a minimum. remove excess empty drawn frames and replace with foundation or insulation board to make the area smaller. That is your best chance.
Jim

[Duane]

So what I hear you saying, regardless of whether disease or other causes, reduce the space for a small number of bees.  And if it is disease, by reducing the space, that might help them?  What about using the honey on other bees I might catch or giving it back to them later?

I'm not sure I understand using foundation for space reduction.  They have comb on both sides of them.  Maybe with plain foundation they don't have to "monitor" it?   So if I make some sort of division board which encapsulates 2 or 3 frames, that should be what you mean?

[BeeMaster2]

Yes, drawn comb takes bees to protect, foundation does not. Better yet, add a divider and it is better.
Jim

[Duane]

Ants had started getting the other frames.  They hadn't in the past.  Several bees were scattered here and there.  Their time would probably be better spent taking care of the brood.  I took out all but the two frames.  Both frames had honey and pollen in them.  I saw what looked like two or three capped brood.  I did not see the queen this time.  I hated to keep moving them around looking for her.  And if I hadn't killed her yet, I didn't want to.  So I put the two frames to the side and a divider next to them.  I took the rest of the frames inside. 

Now the question is, think I should keep it for a future swarm or could it maybe have disease and I should get rid of it?  The dead brood I saw looked like larva about to hatch out with black markings, but only had died.  Just wet/dampish and not stringy.  I could keep it for this hive if they recover, but if disease and they get rid of it themselves, would I just be reintroducing it to them?

[Duane]

They still aren't dead, yet!  I saw a few flying the other day.  I noticed they had dragged out some pupa, formed with legs and body, that were black.  I stuck a stick in the body of one and it was not ropey, but black liquid came out.  I look at a list of bee diseases and I just can't guess which one it could be.  It doesn't sound like American Foul Brood.  They did have some dead mites on the bottom board in the past, but I haven't noticed any now.  Maybe opportunist diseases?  Any certain things I should look for when I look in them?

My biggest question is, is the honey I took off to reduce the space any good for bees, or should I not give it to these or any other bees? 

Seeing time keeps going and no dramatic improvements are being made, I'm thinking it's time for something drastic.  An idea to break the brood cycle is to dump them in an empty box.  Seeing that my goal was to move them to mediums anyway, this could be a good time to do that.  If I were to do choose to do that, exactly how should I make that happen?  What keeps them in an empty box, and if I should keep the space reduced, what keeps them in the sectioned off space?  It's going to take time for me to get the bees off the old brood and with no comb for the bees in the new box to crawl on, will they be flying off and away and/or back to the brood?  I assume smoking the brood comb will be useful, but any techniques on coordinating all this would be appreciated.

Can they make it from scratch?  The sweet clover is blooming now, so there is a nectar source.  If the old honey is not bad for them, I could give them a piece of that to start off, but I don't want to carry any disease over.

Now another thought, if the honey isn't bad for them and only need to interrupt the brood cycle, is to take all brood combs away and leave them with some honey frames.  What are people's ideas for what they would do if this is the only colony/handful-of-bees they had and don't mind fiddling with it?

[buzzbee]

If there are few bees, that is part of the problem. Breaking the brood cycle is not an option with few bees. Keep them confined to a small space. Bees can only raise brood they can cover and keep warm. Your only hope short of getting a frame of brood from another beek is letting hem build up slowly.Or perhaps a swarm.
 Did you leave them some of their honey? Bees cant forage and cover brood at the same time. If they need feed, feed them. Good Luck, It'swarmer now,they may start to increase.

[Duane]

I looked at them today.  They do still have honey and pollen on the two frames.  Looks like about the same number of bees as before.  In their two-three inch brood area, there was about 3 capped cells.  I did not see any uncapped larva but did see eggs.  There was about 5-6 eggs in the cells and I thought, oh no, my queen is gone.  About then, I saw her walking over the comb and sticking her tail end into a cell.  So what's with that?  I'm pretty sure I can recognize the queen.  She has a reddish tinge unlike the worker bees.

[jayj200]

I think it was chemicals that's what got my first. had three inches of dead bee out front. in a couple a days. the smell was bad. killed two queens.
yes make them as small as possible 6 the honey don't feed this to the bees. as it is tainted and would kill all nearby hives.scrape the frames and discard the honey.
taste it has a metallic taste.
wash the frames then soak them for two or three days submerged in water add a little chlorine. water dissipates the chemicals chlorine and sun shine breaks down chemicals more.
Feed the bees sugarwater if they will take it. use a entrance feeder and reduce the opening to a half inch. robbing will occur wether or not you feed. good luck nither of mine survived.
they were the nicest bees you ever saw a little smoke no Vail no vest no gloves. wish we still had them
wash and soak every frame that's not desperately needed
jay

[Duane]

It's been another month and still no better.  Maybe a few less bees.  There's still honey and pollen on the two frames.  Between the two frames, there are about 5 capped brood on each side, still multiple eggs in the open cells, and I did see the queen.  Her abdomen seems really big.   Maybe stuffed full of eggs which have no place to be laid?

I don't see any way of them surviving the winter.  So I'm looking at this situation as an opportunity for learning and experimentation.  Anyway, I was wondering if I could get a hold of a frame of brood and the nurse bees on it from someone, if that could work.  I read you can add a brood frame and nurse bees to an existing hive without much of a problem.  But being I have so few bees, would they fight and kill my existing bees/queen? 

If it can work out, would I just place the brood frame next to my other two frames, or given the unknown possibility of disease, would I dispose of my existing frames and would basically be adding my bees and queen to the brood frame?

And how do you transport the brood frame.  It's supposed to get 90F today.  My idea was to get box, bottom, and put a screen on top, but not sure if I need to worry about ventilation or keeping the heat in for the brood.  Once I get them to the existing hive, would the bees be wanting to fly out or would they be sticking close with the brood?  Or would I be leaving them in the transport box and adding my queen and bees to them?

[Duane]

Last I looked there were more capped brood, maybe 15, and a few eggs and larva.  I try not to disturb them thinking the less would be better.  And if one stung me, I lost a significant percentage of the colony!  Now I noticed a trail of ants going into the box.  Figured they were getting the honey around the edges.  I had noticed some bees out front looking like they were trying to cool the hive through the little entrance.  When I looked in the hive, I noticed not many bees on the frames, ants everywhere, but mostly eating the brood.  Probably half the bees than before.  I did not see the queen.  When I put it back together, I noticed they weren't fanning because it was hot, but had their tails in the air scenting.  I had heard some buzzing a few days ago listening to the side of the hive.

What's sad is looks like they had brought honey and pollen in and stored it next to the brood area.  I don't know if the ants doomed them, or with no queen, they just gave up and the ants took advantage.  A bee was walking around with an ant on her leg but made no attempt in removing it.  Seemed kind of pitiful.

So, no queen, no brood, no hope.

And  thus ends my introduction to beekeeping.

I had something like 50 bees earlier looking at a couple of my trap hives, but they rejected it and went elsewhere.  So I guess I can only hope for a late swarm, which will be weak going through the winter....

[capt44]

You might have had a robbing situation and didn't notice it until it was too late.

[Duane]

Pretty sure it wasn't robbing.  They still had honey to the very last.  And I had narrowed the entrance down to about a half inch.  And at the point when there was no queen, no other bees were coming in to get the honey.