Obtaining Nucs

[Terri Yaki]

Is it wise to order a spring nuc now? Will I have less of a selection if I wait until late winter/early spring? Where is best to get them from, my local club or from a commercial grower? I have sent queries out to some local sellers through my club. So far, one has responded with a price of $225 for a five frame medium nuc with an April delivery and I have found this commercial grower in GA with a variety of bees at lower prices. His bees are #3 pkgs, which doesn't tell me anything. But they do offer a variety to choose from. Are any of these varieties more or less desirable than others? And I believe that the local ones are over-wintered, if that's important.

https://mountainsweethoney.com/bees/

[The15thMember]

I would highly recommend buying bees that are local to you, and I would especially not purchase bees that are from a significantly different climate from you.  You want bees that have genetics that are adapted to your flows and your winters.  I would also reserve packages or nucs early, as some places will run out of reservations by pickup day.  It might also be a good idea to try and find a seller who is keeping bees the way you plan to keep them (i.e. try to buy treatment free bees if you want to be treatment free), because again, the closer the genetics are to your ideals, the better the bees will do in your care.  I've never had "pure" strain bees (like Carniolans, Italians, etc.), but based on my experiences with local mutts, it's never been something I felt I needed or wanted.     

A #3 package means a 3 lb. package.  So instead of the bees being on frames, all the workers will just be in a mesh box with a caged queen and a can of syrup.  I started with packages, and they are cheaper than a nuc, but you do have to kind of baby the hive for the first year depending on your flows, because they are starting completely from scratch. 

[Terri Yaki]

Thanks, that all sounds logical and #3 of bees doesn't sound like a lot to me but I don't really know. I suppose that price per nuc would vary regionally but $225 seems a little steep. I'll see what the other two who are local to me are asking. Would asking to visit their nurseries be acceptable? Not that I'll know what I'm looking at but seeing them and comparing them might lead me in one direction over the others.

[The15thMember]

I suppose that price per nuc would vary regionally but $225 seems a little steep.

I paid $165 for packages 6 years ago, so $225 for an overwintered nuc sounds pretty good to me. 

Would asking to visit their nurseries be acceptable? Not that I'll know what I'm looking at but seeing them and comparing them might lead me in one direction over the others.

Something like that isn't typical, at least not around here, but there is no harm in asking.  I would think that many hobbyists or sideliners would be willing to have a visit with a prospective buyer.  We do that for people interested in goats. 

Thanks, that all sounds logical and #3 of bees doesn't sound like a lot to me but I don't really know.

I've got a picture attached, just to give you a general idea.

[max2]

Thanks, that all sounds logical and #3 of bees doesn't sound like a lot to me but I don't really know. I suppose that price per nuc would vary regionally but $225 seems a little steep. I'll see what the other two who are local to me are asking. Would asking to visit their nurseries be acceptable? Not that I'll know what I'm looking at but seeing them and comparing them might lead me in one direction over the others.

Hi Terry,
have you ever sold bees, nuc's , packages?
I find the selling part the aspect I like the least.
I have people turning up who have no idea what to look for.
I spend an hour of more with them and they seem to be more interested in the box then the bees.
Most years I sell between 50 and 100 nuc's. many of these are to people who had nuc's from me before and want to expand - these people are a dream to deal with.
New beekeepers have read all the forums ( mostly OS information) and need a workshop before they buy.
You would not belive some of the questions I'm getting.

People get a Flow Hive for Christmas and ask for a queen ( " I have plenty of bees in the yard") is quite common.

The Flow Hives are an amazing invention. Their website is full of information but you can take a horse to  water...

[Terri Yaki]

Thanks, that all sounds logical and #3 of bees doesn't sound like a lot to me but I don't really know. I suppose that price per nuc would vary regionally but $225 seems a little steep. I'll see what the other two who are local to me are asking. Would asking to visit their nurseries be acceptable? Not that I'll know what I'm looking at but seeing them and comparing them might lead me in one direction over the others.

Hi Terry,
have you ever sold bees, nuc's , packages?
I find the selling part the aspect I like the least.
I have people turning up who have no idea what to look for.
I spend an hour of more with them and they seem to be more interested in the box then the bees.
Most years I sell between 50 and 100 nuc's. many of these are to people who had nuc's from me before and want to expand - these people are a dream to deal with.
New beekeepers have read all the forums ( mostly OS information) and need a workshop before they buy.
You would not belive some of the questions I'm getting.

People get a Flow Hive for Christmas and ask for a queen ( " I have plenty of bees in the yard") is quite common.

The Flow Hives are an amazing invention. Their website is full of information but you can take a horse to  water..

No, Max, I'm brand new to all of this but I am booked for a course starting in February. My neighbor has had bees for a few years and his uncle had them for quite a few years. So right now, my first concern is making sure I don't miss the opportunity to get a nuc in the spring. My hopes are to catch a swarm after I get started but if I don't, maybe buy another nuc at the cutoff time to make their survival through the winter.

[cao]

Times and prices have definitely changed.  10 years ago, I got started with 3 nucs which cost me $100 each.  The next year I bought 2 packages which were $85 each.  Around here nucs go for $175+.  When I have sold nucs in the past, I charged $150.  If you are buying a nuc from someone local(which is what i would recommend), then a visit to their apiary should be welcomed by the seller.  You should be able to look at your bees before you take them home.  I offer to go through the nuc with the buyer so they know what they are buying. 

Have you asked your neighbor or his uncle if they will have any bees to sell come spring.  That could be a good source to get started with.

Like max2 said, selling bees is not all about the money.  Customer service is a reward in itself.  Where else can you talk about bees and put some cash in you pockets too.

[Terri Yaki]

My neighbor is down to one hive at this point and even he is considering buying some in the spring. He gets several swarms on his apple trees every year so he should be able to rebuild his apiary. There is a beekeeper about 1/2 mile down the road and I suspect that it is his swarms that are coming up here.

[BeeMaster2]

Terri,
When you go to pick up a nuc, the seller should show you every frame individually. They should all bee full of bees. The middle three frames should have a nice looking patch of brood. He should try to show you the queen, although this is not always possible. If you don?t see the queen then he should show you eggs. Check the brood, if it is mostly drone brood, looks like bullet pushing out of the cell, don?t buy it.
The first nuc that I bought I didn?t inspect and they had just arrived from the breeder, and it ended up having a drone laying queen that had deformed wing virus and had never made her maiden flights. The owner brought me a 2 deep box hive to replace it.
My second nuc that I bought from another store in the same week pulled three frames at a time out and immediately put them in my box and then pulled the other two frames in together. This is a big warning flag. It turned out that only the inner frames had any bees and it was very weak. It barely survived and took a long time to grow.
If you buy packages, look at the bottom. It  shouldn?t bee covered in dead bees. The bees should bee hanging from the top, like half of a football. When you put them in your hive, while the queen is in the cage, check to make sure she looks healthy. Make sure her wings look good.
Hope this helps.
Jim Altmiller

[Terri Yaki]

It helps a plenty. These are things I wouldn't know instinctively and they all make sense. There are unscrupulous people everywhere, aren't there? It's not as bad a doping up a lame horse to sell it but it's in the same direction.

[max2]

Jim wrote:
When you go to pick up a nuc, the seller should show you every frame individually.

!!Having sold nuc's for longer then I want to remember I disagree.

My nuc's are always picked up on dark.
There is no way that i would open a nuc at that time of the day.

There is another reason not to open a nuc just before transport - movement of the frames. I like the frames to be nicely " welded in" so that they don't swing and potentially kill bees, maybe the queen.
I check the nuc's a few days before they leave and mark all which are ready to go.

 They should all bee full of bees. The middle three frames should have a nice looking patch of brood. He should try to show you the queen, although this is not always possible. If you don?t see the queen then he should show you eggs. Check the brood, if it is mostly drone brood, looks like bullet pushing out of the cell, don?t buy it.


!!In general I agree.
I had nuc's travel long distances. In such cases I let them go ( and tell the buyer) that they are NOT full of bees. It is a survival thing. Too many bees, too crowded = to much heat.

While it would be rare to see drone brood i don't understand the issue?

The first nuc that I bought I didn?t inspect and they had just arrived from the breeder, and it ended up having a drone laying queen that had deformed wing virus and had never made her maiden flights. The owner brought me a 2 deep box hive to replace it.

!!Buying bees like buying second hand beegear is a game in trust.

[Terri Yaki]

Ok, now I have a response from a second beekeeper on nucs. Theirs are $175 and they're talking like mid May whereas the other outfit is talking sometime in April. Does that sound reasonable and would that month make a difference? I am aware that it's a good time of year for flowers.

[Ben Framed]

In my opinion the sooner the better. Yes I would rather April than May. Just my opinion.

Phillip

[yes2matt]

Georgia bees just got back from almonds in CA,  they raise a bunch of queens, shake their well-travelled bees into packages, and mail them to you.  That's not worth $165 of my money, maybe you evaluate differently.

Local dude here is taking pre-orders for nucs for $195, which I think is a fair price. His will have a new queen and slap full of bees.

The overwintered nuc will have last year's summer queen, established nest, treatment history, and have proven their ability to overwinter. (Verify all these things with the seller).  You might make a harvest with them this year.   That's still a lot of money for bees, you could get paid the 250 to cut them out of someone's soffit.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[The15thMember]

All other things being equal, I'd go with the earlier bees.  May is only about a month before the summer solstice, which is when the bees minds will switch from buildup to winter prep. 

[Terri Yaki]

All other things being equal, I'd go with the earlier bees.  May is only about a month before the summer solstice, which is when the bees minds will switch from buildup to winter prep.

There is a $50 price difference between them. Is there a reason that two different operations would have them a month apart?

[Ben Framed]

All other things being equal, I'd go with the earlier bees.  May is only about a month before the summer solstice, which is when the bees minds will switch from buildup to winter prep.

Agreed...

[beesnweeds]

There is a $50 price difference between them. Is there a reason that two different operations would have them a month apart?

Could be a few things.  Sometimes its as simple as first come first serve.  Some build nucs with their own colonies and queens.  While others buy queens and add them to nucs.  Other suppliers buy early southern nucs in bulk and resell. 

In your first post the price of a MEDIUM nuc is $225,  a DEEP nuc will run $275.  That may also be the reason for the $50 price difference.  Try and get them as early as you can.  All nucs and packages can be hit or miss.  A good learning experience is to get one of each and compare them.  Dont worry about what type or breed of bee your getting.  The best colonies are those with a quality raised and bred queen during swarm season,  and thats impossible to tell until the colonies get going.  You may want to find out who locally raises queens and how to requeen colonies.

[Terri Yaki]

I asked about the date and this is what she said. Would getting them too early be a problem? They're saying weather dependent, which sounds reasonable to me.

Packages are available beginning in March usually. You really don't want to get them though until late April to avoid all the temp fluctuations and possibility of a late frost. As most people talk of April, that may be why you are thinking May is late for a nuc. Everyone wants them early, but that's not always the best way to go. 

We are doing splits, so as said it is dependent upon weather and when other factors are ready (drones). We will have 1 nuc available before the splits, and have high expectation it will make it through winter. You can never be 100% sure. This one is currently not spoken for if you are interested. This would be ready much earlier, but again will be dependent up weather as to exactly when is safe to transfer them.

[yes2matt]

I asked about the date and this is what she said. Would getting them too early be a problem? They're saying weather dependent, which sounds reasonable to me.

Packages are available beginning in March usually. You really don't want to get them though until late April to avoid all the temp fluctuations and possibility of a late frost. As most people talk of April, that may be why you are thinking May is late for a nuc. Everyone wants them early, but that's not always the best way to go. 

We are doing splits, so as said it is dependent upon weather and when other factors are ready (drones). We will have 1 nuc available before the splits, and have high expectation it will make it through winter. You can never be 100% sure. This one is currently not spoken for if you are interested. This would be ready much earlier, but again will be dependent up weather as to exactly when is safe to transfer them.

I will always advise against package bees, for all the reasons.

The seller gave you a hint about the nucs, and the price difference.  It is when the queen is raised.  So in PA (I am guessing) the earliest to raise queens is probably end of March, bc you have to have drones in the air, which is third or fourth round of brood after the first good pollen availability.  The seller I mentioned raises his queens in FL or so Georgia, from stock he manages in NC and GA. so he can raise queens in late Feb (I'm again guessing).   The seller you mentioned has "overwintered" nucs, which are presumably last year's summer queens. So the nuc should be available as soon as it's warm enough to inspect and verify health. 

in the case of the overwintered nuc, you might well make honey this summer to cover the $50 difference.  In the case of the package, you won't make honey the first summer, unless they're scutes, and you don't want those  :)

In the case of the trapped or recovered swarm, which I strongly suggest, you have an overwintered survivor colony at the earliest naturally possible date, and the price is a lot better.  :)

[Terri Yaki]

OK, so this seller is selling a different product than the other one with the over-wintered nucs?

[Terri Yaki]

After reviewing the correspondence back and forth, I think it's a matter of semantics. She definitely identified them as over-wintered nucs. But I'll be sure to get the deets. One thing that seems to make a difference in the price is the cheaper one has a $50 deposit on the nuc box and the other makes no reference to getting it back.

[yes2matt]

OK, so this seller is selling a different product than the other one with the over-wintered nucs?

The seller whose correspondence you shared is assuming you know where bees come from. She is offering three products: package bees that she is likely wholesale/reselling; nucs that are products of "splits" that she is making in spring when drones are flying; one nuc "not yet spoken for" that is currently being overwintered from this past summer. She is asking would you like to speak for or put a deposit on that last overwintered nuc. Or would you prefer to wait for spring splits, or order package bees.  From my perspective, if I was to be presented these options only, I would jump on that last overwintered nuc and be prepared to drop a $50 deposit on it.

If I could predict, you will receive your nuc in either a waxed-cardboard nuc box or one of the new plastic boxes with a yellow top. In either case you'll want to get your bees moved out of it into wood or poly equipment very soon, and you'll want to keep the box for when you make your first split, or as a spare/emergency swarm box.

EDIT: sorry I didn't read your next post carefully.  In general, you're going to want to have a nuc box (several eventually).  But you can get one for less than $50 certainly. So if you are being careful with your money, return the box and get your fifty back, then buy two for fifty at your favorite supplier. Then stack them together in hive with a little swipe of lemongrass oil on the inside and some blank frames in the top box, put it somewhere near a landmark, facing south, preferably sunny, and getcha another colony of bees  :)

[Terri Yaki]

I called this seller and it turns out that she is one of the two teachers of the beekeepers class that I'm going to attend. She does not sell packages but she does seem to use that term a little. Like I said, semantics. Anyhow, she  has one over-wintered nuc that can go whenever the weather is right. Otherwise, she splits hives and says that they need to ensure that the queens are mated and laying before they can sell them. No deposit is necessary to have my name on that nuc. All of that taken into consideration, I think I have a good deal here.

[The15thMember]

She does not sell packages but she does seem to use that term a little. Like I said, semantics.

The difference between a package and a nuc is not semantics, and I've never heard anyone use the words interchangeably, so that's a little odd to me, but whatever. 

Anyhow, she  has one over-wintered nuc that can go whenever the weather is right. Otherwise, she splits hives and says that they need to ensure that the queens are mated and laying before they can sell them. No deposit is necessary to have my name on that nuc. All of that taken into consideration, I think I have a good deal here.

I agree.  If I were you, I'd reserve that nuc.  Are you going to try and catch a swarm then for a second colony?  Because it is advisable to have two colonies your first season, not just one. 

[cao]

Sounds like you found someone to get your bees from. 

Just a few thoughts:
Some of the early nucs are shipped in from the south.
Some beeks will buy queens(from south) to put in nucs to sell them early.
Later nucs raised locally can do better than the early ones from southern genetics.
As long as you get your nuc during the typical swarm season for your area than they should do just fine.
To me package bees aren't worth the money spent.

[Terri Yaki]

The difference between a package and a nuc is not semantics, and I've never heard anyone use the words interchangeably, so that's a little odd to me, but whatever.

I'm used to it, clip/magazine, license to carry firearms (LTCF)/concealed carry permit (CCP), forklift/towmotor, refrigerator/frigidaire, I don't sweat it as long as we all understand what we really mean.

I agree.  If I were you, I'd reserve that nuc.  Are you going to try and catch a swarm then for a second colony?  Because it is advisable to have two colonies your first season, not just one.

Yep, nuc is reserved and I am going to try and catch a swarm. If it's gets near a safe cutoff point, I'll buy another nuc.

[Michael Bush]

My problems with nucs are:

1) they usually come on the wrong size frames (I want mediums)
2) they come on the wrong size cells (I want small cell)

Packages solve both these issues if I put them on the frame size and cell size I want.

[Terri Yaki]

My problems with nucs are:

1) they usually come on the wrong size frames (I want mediums)
2) they come on the wrong size cells (I want small cell)

Packages solve both these issues if I put them on the frame size and cell size I want.

They are five frame mediums and I've heard a little about cell size but I'm still trying to figure that out. My hives came with plastic foundations in yellow and black. Black for the deep frame and yellow for the medium frame supers. I looked at them and they all looked like the same size cell base to me but I didn't get my mic or calipers out.

[yes2matt]

Oh goodness here we go. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[The15thMember]

Small cell foundation isn't the norm, so I'm guessing your hives came with standard large cell foundation.  Are you planning on using all mediums, Terri? 

[Michael Bush]

Lighter equipment:
https://bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm

Small Cell:
https://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#naturalsize
https://bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

[Terri Yaki]

Small cell foundation isn't the norm, so I'm guessing your hives came with standard large cell foundation.  Are you planning on using all mediums, Terri?

I got me two of these, assembled, stacked in the garage, and schmutzed up with some slum-gum. I also got a couple of frames with comb off of my neighbor, which I gave the freezer treatment. Is there any reason to keep a nuc around if you have an extra box and frames to put them into?

https://www.vevor.com/bee-hive-c_10974/vevor-beehive-box-kit-bee-honey-hive-40-frames-2-deep-2-medium-natural-fir-wood-p_010394677269

[Terri Yaki]

Lighter equipment:
https://bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm

Small Cell:
https://bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#naturalsize
https://bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm

OK, that's a lot to consider. Maybe I'll make an experiment hive down the road. And I was wondering how I get those medium nucs into a deep frame. I am a KISS guy so transitioning to all mediums does not sound bad.

[BeeMaster2]

Terri,
Medium frames can go into a bottom deep box with no trouble. If you put them in an upper deep box, the bees will fill in the space between the upper and lower frames to fill the gap. I started with deep boxes and when I decided to go all medium frames I cut the deep boxes on a table saw and turned them into medium boxes. Then I used the cut off pieces and added them to my shallow boxes to make them mediums. I also cut the bottoms of the deep frames to make them medium frames.
Jim Altmiller

[Michael Bush]

Depth is a two part issue.  1) having all the same size frames and boxes is much simpler.  2) 8 frame mediums won't be over 50 lbs.  10 frame mediums won't weigh over 60 lbs.  10 frame deeps can weigh 90 lbs.

[The15thMember]

Having tried two sizes of boxes when I first started, I'd recommend just using all one size if you can, because it's way easier to be able to move things around that way.  But like Jim said, you can put mediums in a deep with no trouble.  I put shallows in mediums all the time. 

[Bill Murray]

Terri keep it simple.

1) for your brood boxes Keep it all the same size. Deeps or mediums, your choice. But another nice caveat to mediums is your honey supers are the same size.

2) My opinion, first hives-go with NUCS. What to look for?

A) local bees, local queens. Talk to who your getting the bees from. I could really go off in the weeds here but to keep it simple I wont.

B) pick them up in the evening time, after the bewitching hour, when all the field bees are home. A good 5 frame NUC will have 4 frames of bees+. If they dont, dont get them.

C) Talk to your supplier and see if they were treated, when, and what treatment they used. If your not happy with the answer dont get them.

D) When you open them up look at the open brood. If its not pearly white. dont get them. Look at the capped brood. If you see holes in the cappings, look at them for a minute it could be bees hatching, if not dont get them.

E) I havnt bought bees in years but back when I did if there was a queen issue I was either refunded or got a new queen. Talk to your supplier and if not, Get a new supplier

F) Your supplier should be able to offer you medium Nucs if you let him know about this time. If not, Find a new supplier.

[Terri Yaki]

Beekeeper class started last night with the basics. They brushed on nucs and it leaves me with one question in particular. I am set-up for deep brood boxes and the nuc I had intended to buy is in medium frames. What to do?

[Bill Murray]

If you have mediums for honey supers put them in those and start there. If you want to run deeps put the deep on top of the medium, get comb drawn in that then reverse the boxes later in the year.

[Terri Yaki]

If you have mediums for honey supers put them in those and start there. If you want to run deeps put the deep on top of the medium, get comb drawn in that then reverse the boxes later in the year.

That sounds like a good, reasonable approach, thanks. Would it be good to ensure that the queen went to the lower level and put the queen excluder in the middle then?

[beesnweeds]

When you place the deep on the medium let the bees draw it out.  When the queen moves up to the deep put a queen excluder on top of the medium.  Once all the brood emerges from the medium you can do what you want with it.

[Terri Yaki]

When you place the deep on the medium let the bees draw it out.  When the queen moves up to the deep put a queen excluder on top of the medium.  Once all the brood emerges from the medium you can do what you want with it.

So they'll just move up into it?

[The15thMember]

They should.  One medium is really just not enough room for a colony's brood nest.  I use all mediums, and my colonies always have brood in at least 2 mediums, sometimes 3, when it's active season.

[Bill Murray]

So they'll just move up into it?

Yes, they are bees , thats what they do.

Again, keep it simple they have been doing this a lot longer than I have.  Remember you are trying to manage your bees to do what you want them to do in a given situation/time frame. If you can keep that in your mind and work with them to do what they do. You'll be fine.

[cao]

Why put the deep on top?  Just put the deep on the bottom and let the bees do what is natural.  They will move the broodnest down when they start filling the medium with honey.

[Terri Yaki]

Why put the deep on top?  Just put the deep on the bottom and let the bees do what is natural.  They will move the broodnest down when they start filling the medium with honey.

Would I not end up with brood in the honey super?

[beesnweeds]

Would I not end up with brood in the honey super?

You could.  Not always, but queens tend to lay in dark brood comb no matter the location.  I try and keep brood and honey frames separate.  Personally I would put on a QE and be done with it.  All beekeepers manage differently, its really up to you.  Just make sure you keep feed on them so they build up to the configuration you want (like 2 deeps 3 mediums or whatever) then remove the feeder and add your supers.

[Michael Bush]

>Not always, but queens tend to lay in dark brood comb no matter the location.

It's funny.  A queen's favorite comb to lay in is brand new comb, but next is old black comb...