My disasterous beehive removal attempt

[omnimirage]

I was asked by a family friend to remove a beehive from his property, these are some photos I took early on:

http://imgur.com/a/1iYRZ

I've never attempted to remove one so big, and I made quite a number of mistakes by doing this. I tried to put most of the comb into the bee boxs I bought. This resulted in the boxs being quite overfull, they leaked with honey and many bees died because of so. I had to put another super on top to contain all the comb, which resulted in the beehive being overly large and heavy; I dropped them, twice, and all the comb I put in there misaligned, and now I'm unable to close the beehive, as none of the frames can sit straight, nor can I seal the bottom part of the hive as it came apart with it's deattachable base.

I've learned when doing bee hive removal jobs, that I need to take a bucket to store honey comb that I find, and another bucket to store wax comb that I find; the only comb that should be going into the super is brood(except maybe a bit of sticky honeycomb on top of the hivelid).

The first night I went there, I extracted all the comb. I didn't give myself nearly enough time (got there with 2 hours of day light left) and too many aggressive bees got into my suit, so I left the bees, exposed with a nucleus with brood in it next to them. I returned the next day, they entirely ignored the nucleus. I proceed to scoop the bees with an icecream container and beebrush, taking out bits of tiles to allow me to get at the bees that were running down the sides. My beesuit zipper starts to come undone. I try duct taping it up but for some reason my ducttape sucks and won't stick well. My smoker kept going out, I might have overpacked it, then the top got stuck, may have needed to be cleaned but I could not open it, was trying for minutes, getting very frustrated, and in my stressed state I bashed the head of the smoker to try and force it to open, which caused the head to break off, making it further difficult to smoke the bees.

The bees went down into the box, I couldn't easily get at them. I was scooping at them with a brush into an ice cream container, to put them into the box. As soon as I'd start scooping, they'd go down the sides. I'd put the hive box right up next to them, and they'd pay only little interest in it. I really could not tell where the queen was, I'm guessing she was running down the sides, and is still there. I was getting quite stung, was quite stressed and had enough, so I left, leaving behind about two fist full of bees, plus whatever was scattered amongst the tiles.

It was very difficult trying to get the double super beehive into the car, which wasnt sealed, had angry bees in it, was dripping in honey, had a bunch of bees hanging off the side and my wagon door kept on wanting to shut down on it's own. I return home, and went to take the bees out, but seeing the mangled box and all the angry bees flying around it, I just couldn't see a way in which I could actually pick that thing up and carry it, without dropping it and without getting stung multiple times, so I left it. It's still in my car, I want to just forget about this stressful incindent but I need to take it out.

The people with the bees will probably contact me as I left many bees behind. I don't know what to do with them. I want to tell them to just spray them with fly spray, but I don't know if the bees would attack them if they did so; would they? I don't know if I should offer to go down there, for the third time, to spray the bees myself (I haven't got a suit but I have a veil and the smoker sort of works). I'm not sure if the bees will fly elsewhere, having had their home ripped apart like that, but I feel there's a decent chance they will stay there (and they need to be removed).

I'm not sure what to do with the mangled hive, I feel there's a decent chance she's queenless. I feel that I shouldn't leave the comb in there, and that the comb I do want to leave in there, I should strap down with rubbered bands, meaning that I'll need to take everything out, and transition all bees and comb and reconstruct a new super for them to live in. I feel I should move the beehive that's in the car at night or in the early morning/dusk.

[bwallace23350]

Good lesson learned and thanks for sharing.

[texanbelchers]

I'm sorry you had to go through all that.  Take it as a learning experience; there will be many more as every removal is a different challenge.  Of course, that is part of what I like about it.

So, for this mess, I would take a fresh approach.  Plan to use as little honey filled comb as possible; one or two nice combs with bee bread and honey will do.  Any comb with honey goes into a container for crush & strain; you could keep some to feed back in a top feeder, but here the SHB will ruin it too quickly.  Use whatever brood that fits nicely into a frame.  Any brood comb with drones or weird shape goes directly into the trash; it isn't worth trying to save it.

I would lay out a sheet to work on.  Have 2 boxes worth of new foundation frames ready to go.  Set a bottom board, a queen excluder and box in the middle of the sheet.  Use an entrance reducer, but screen the entrance such that it can be removed easily.  Center the brood combs in the bottom box and the bee bread combs on the outside of that.  Fill the rest with new frames as needed.  Place an empty box on top.  Go through the rest of the frames and shake all bees into the top box putting the comb in the proper container.  You'll want to be able to close the containers to minimize bees in there.  If you have additional brood comb, place that in the center of the top box and fill it with new foundation frames.  Put the covers on and walk away for a couple of hours.

When you come back, most of the bees should be in or on the box.  Those in the box should be relative calm.  Get the remaining bees out of your containers and car, then move them away.  Look carefully for the queen on the bees outside the box.  If there are a lot, you can scoop them into the top.  If not, you can open the screen and they should find their way in.  Since there is a queen includer in place the objective is to make sure the queen is not outside.   

I would wait until dusk to move the hive to the final location.  Depending on how they are acting, that is like they want to leave, I may put the entrance screen back on for a day, but they need to be able to forage.  They will be likely to stay if you have open brood and the queen is in the box.  If you have neither all bets are off.

Don't open the hive for 3-4 days.  At that point you should be able to see a noticeable change in the brood.  Eggs will be larva, some larva will be newly capped, some capped brood will have emerged.  Hopefully you will have new eggs proving you have a queen.  If not, you should have the starts of queen cells proving you don't.  At this point you can remove the queen excluder from the stack.

As far as the original location, you can take a nuc (or cardboard) box that can be closed back and collect any major groups of bees left.  You can gently scoop them up and drop them in the box.  If you left a lot, the queen may be there also.  I seem to find her in the last groups I pick up.  They can be dumped at the new hive entrance and they will move right in.  If the queen is there make sure you put her in the hive.

[BeeMaster2]

Good answer Tex.
I would add, it sounds like it is time for you to make or buy a Beevac. Robo has a good one. It will help you out a lot. Be sure to make the suction to be just enough to get the bees in the vacuum.
Jim

[texanbelchers]

Definitely agree that a vacuum helps a great deal.  It cuts the flying bees and time on site dramatically.

I made one that was like the Robo unit.  I only had one and found that it was easy to overload, so I just modified it. I put the inlet and suction both on the bottom and screened off the suction side so there was a large area that wouldn't get blocked.  Then I cut a plexiglass lid to go above the top screen.  I can now see how many bees are in the box and just removing the plexi gives me a lot of ventilation.  The top and bottom were the same, so I did it twice and have 2 vacuum boxes now.

[D Semple]

Tex's advice was very good.

The only thing I would add is you can take a small hive with a couple of frames of open brood and place it at the old site, close to the old entrance. If you have removed all the old comb all the loose bees will migrate over to it over a few days. Give it say 4 days and you can just bring them all home after dark. Once home you can recombine them with the cutout bees you already have.

Borrow another suit, or duct tape the hell out of the old one after layering up, and Battle though it.   


Great story  .

Oh, and take some pictures, we have all been there and believe it or not you will get a laugh out of it someday too.


Thanks for sharing, you made my day!

Don

[omnimirage]

How likely will the bees abscond at the property where I took them? I really don't want to go back there, would it be safe for them to spray any remaining bees with fly spray? Or will I need to go back there myself and spray/scoop into a box? I'm not prepared to leave a nucleus there as then I'll have to return a fourth time.

[texanbelchers]

IF there is no queen, they will dissipate and beg into another colony.  If you left the queen they will setup house again; maybe back in the box.  Family friend = return trips until done.  They will appreciate your thoroughness.

[mtnb]

Oh man, omni! Yesterday morning when I read your post, you had me laughing so hard! and then I  stopped in my tracks when I realized this is an ongoing situation for you. lol I feel for you brother. I did my first cut out last year from a ceiling and after about 6 hours I so wanted to throw in the towel and just give up. They just. kept. coming. lol Luckily I had inquired here first and knew about the buckets. I also had a bee vac which I don't what know what I would have done without. And a suit. lol I had a suit. lol

You've gotta go back and make this right, man. You can't just hope the people won't call you. lol Double up on clothing layers and use lots of duct tape on your pant legs and seams. Someone on here told me about using almond extract in a spray bottle. That'll keep them away from a place you don't want them to go...for a little while anyway.  And you can use liquid smoke but I do hope you can get your smoker working. Anyway, just wanted to let you know I'm sending you good vibes from Montana... But you can't just leave those people hanging. Take care of it. You got this. Good luck!

[omnimirage]

Hey thanks for the good replies guys. I managed to get the hive out of the car before the sun came up, was difficult to get a grip, I needed to press the sticky hive against my body to bring it out. I managed to hold it and was glad, thinking I could potentially walk it the 15 steps I needed to put it out of the way... I got 2 steps in before I felt I was going to drop it, so I put it down, a bit too quicly a bunch of angry bees came out when it banged against the ground, on the sidewalk of a suburbian street. I went to go pick it up but realised I couldn't, realised I couldn't leave it where it was... so I just dragged it to closer to my house. The bees got pretty angry by such so I ran. I only got stung twice so I consider that quite a success.

I took a photo and figured I'd share. First is the hive, notice how it's not in place, and there's honey oozing around it. The second is a nucleus that's full of comb. Since I didn't have a bucket I filled that up instead, there's some brood and bees in it. The second photo is the back of my car where the hive was sitting. Note all the honey that oozed out. So much more honey oozed out at the actual site.

http://imgur.com/a/WSuvX

I haven't received a phone call or message. I'm going to assume that the situation is dealt with and not worry about it until they message me, and if they do so I'll go back and finish the job. I'll take a box to scoop whatever bees I can, and spray to deal with the rest.

I have to have this hive moved in four days time. I can take more photos when I open it up if there's an interest.

[BeeMaster2]

If you can bear it, I would remove most of the honey. It may be too late if you have SHBs. If you do have SHBs, right now the bees are spending all of their energy cleaning up the hive while the beetles are laying eggs everywhere. If it takes the bees more than 3 days to complete the cleanup, the larvae will slime the hive before the bees get a chance to remove them.
Jim

[brookscj]

I have to say that I am very disappointed to hear you say that you are going to leave these people hanging unless they call you.  That kind of behavior gives the rest of the beekeeping community a bad image.  You should do right by these "friends" and call them to make sure the problem is resolved.  If you don't want to try and save the rest of the bees all you have to do is spray them down with soapy water at night when they are not flying. The soap will kill them and if you go after dark you will get all of them.  No harsh chemicals needed.  I understand your frustration with the situation but you need to make this right.

[Eric Bosworth]

Thanks for sharing.... One life lesson I have learned is... Learn from the mistakes of others... You won't have time to make all the mistakes yourself. I am happy to learn from your mistakes.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

[omnimirage]

I didn't get any word from then for a few days, but then they rung me and told me that the bees were still there. I instructed him to get a few types of poisons I've heard about from the local hardware store, and I went to the property, intending to scoop whatever bees I could into a new nuc, and then place poison around there so there's no stragglers.

The bees were there that morning when I received the phone call. By later that evening, they had buggered off, before I got there.

I ended up fixing up their hive. I essentially abandoned all the comb without brood; I've truly learned a lesson there. The comb that had brood in it, I placed it on top of the hive mat. I wasn't sure if this was best, as I've been told online to strap the comb via rubberbands, but I've done such in the past and it's worked well.

I didn't see any signs of queen, but I did see two things in the hive that looked like were a queen cocoon. I wanted to get a photo to post online, to get a verification either way or not.

[2Sox]

Omni,
I very much respect the fact that you posted your experience with this unfortunate disaster, and wanted to learn from it.  This is admirable.  What you went through on this one I'm certain you will always remember!

I've been doing cutouts since the second year I was beekeeping - about ten years -  and I've found that each one is always a learning experience.  And I've done well over one hundred of them. Before I even attempted my first one, I must have watched over 50 You Tube videos of the original "bee whisperer" the guru of cutouts - JP the Beeman.  His methods should be required viewing for anyone who aspires to do a successful cutout.  Your experience reads more like, "Everything You Shouldn't Do on a Cutout".  Sorry you had to go through this but I don't have too much sympathy for you.  In my opinion, you did a great disservice to the client, the bees and to yourself.  From your photos, I would have had great pause myself to remove these bees. This was one crazy space!  You should have come prepared with a good deal more knowledge and certainly ought to have been exceedingly more prepared for any emergency.

I follow a few simple rules.  Others may disagree, but I firmly believe that every cutout is ALWAYS a two man/woman operation. I never have and never will approach one alone. And there are many reasons for this. Cuts down on time, exhaustion, makes the operation more efficient and runs more smoothly.  If the client is paying by the hour, 2 people is more fair for the transaction. Although this was not the case with you, I never do a cutout on a ladder. 

- Rule #1: Always, ALWAYS use a bee vac.  If you don't have one, don't do any more cutouts until you get one.
- Use a template the size of the interior of the frame you use as a guide to cut the comb out.
- Hand the perfectly cut pieces down to your assistant to mount into frames with rubber bands. He/she will put these frames into the box as you work - whatever size you use. You will by necessity cut through brood.  Part of the process.  BTW, #33 bands from Staples are great.
- Set up a piece of plywood on two plastic sawhorses as a work table from which to do the mounting and extra cutting.
- Vacuum as you go. Use the least smoke possible.  Too much and the bees will gorge themselves and explode as they are vacuumed.
- Cut and mount the brood combs first. NEVER cut the honey above - leave it for last - or you'll drown the bees.
- Use a Sterlite container with a cover, under your work table, for the honey. Your assistant can drop honey combs in as you hand them to him/her. Keep it covered as much as possible. If it's open, bees get in, drown and die.
- Mount the comb in the frame in the same position you cut it out.  There exists a top and bottom to every comb.  Make sure it's mounted that way.
- Always think of the bees and what's good for them.  Aim for the lowest mortality possible.

Your removal was unique but these are standard rules to follow. I would have tried to vacuum as many bees as I could before I cut any of the combs away.  Vacuum, cut. Vacuum, cut.  I would also have tried to disassemble or cut away sections of this box as I worked.  Another reason for two people on the job.



I hope this helps

[omnimirage]

I don't think I did a diservice to anyone but myself. The client was going to pay an exterminator to remove them; because of me, some of the bees survived and the client saved money.

I'll have too look into this bee vac. Scopping them into an icecream container wasn't particularly effective. And yes thank you it does help, I'll have to remember that about not smoking them too much when vacumming to prevent them from exploding!

I opened up the hive, as I want to see if they have a queen, or whether I'll need to find some eggs from another hive to give them. I took some photos:

https://imgur.com/a/vztJe

In photos 2-4, there's the comb that has what looks like the queen cell. There were two half a week ago, now one has a hole in it, appears that a queen hatched and released. The other one looks mangled and weird, not really sure what happened.

I pulled out some frames, to see if I could see the queen, but they got angry so I let them be. They don't appear to be touching the brood on the mat much; maybe such isn't an effective idea. Would have it been best to strap it to the frames instead with rubber bands?

They seem slow to be building. There's not many bees, or comb or much of anything. I left a nuc with a bunch of honey on the bottom next to it, thinking they could eat it, but they weren't interested so I cleaned it and put it away.

Hope they survive the winter. I've got some honey that's unfit for human consumption. I'm going to keep them at home, and if they look like they're struggling, I figure I'll dilute said honey and give them some. Just hope they have a laying queen.