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Author Topic: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment  (Read 4162 times)

Online The15thMember

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Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« on: October 23, 2021, 07:08:11 pm »
I have a hive that I treated with FormicPro, along with several others, on 9/4.  Their sugar roll pre-treatment was 8.7%.  Today when I inspected them I noticed they were pulling some of their brood, I saw a mite on a bee, and I saw a bee with shriveled wings.  I figured I'd better check to see where they were at and it was the worst sugar roll I have ever seen!  There were approximately 100 mites in the roll of 600 bees!!  :shocked:  Using HP's correction factor for sugar rolls vs. alcohol washes, that's a 22% infestation!!  :oops:  Obviously my first step is going to be rolling the other colonies I treated to see where they are, as I'm concerned perhaps it was a bad batch of Formic, although the treatment seemed entirely normal.  I hope that ends up being the answer, because if it's not I don't understand what happened.         

The biggest problem is that it's so late in the season that I don't have a lot of options.  I suppose I'll have to re-treat, but I don't know that I can trust the formic, I'd rather not use a hard chemical, and I have very few options available for purchase locally.  What do you guys think I should do?     

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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2021, 07:54:14 pm »
I am surprised at the high mite count Member after your using formic pro. From all I have gathered, Formic knocks them out! I have no doubt that you used it properly...  This is a mystery...
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline CoolBees

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2021, 08:18:43 pm »
Wish I could offer some guidance. You live in a completely different climate than I do. My flow will begin in 4 weeks or so. Your just hitting hard winter.

My first response would be - 4 weeks of OAV. ... but it's too late in the season to help your bees because your Winter bees are already raised. And, you aren't set up for OAV. It Mite not matter now anyways. All I would hope is that some of your colonies make it thru the winter - and this hive can be "replaced" come spring time.
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Online The15thMember

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2021, 08:32:28 pm »
Wish I could offer some guidance. You live in a completely different climate than I do. My flow will begin in 4 weeks or so. Your just hitting hard winter.

My first response would be - 4 weeks of OAV. ... but it's too late in the season to help your bees because your Winter bees are already raised. And, you aren't set up for OAV. It Mite not matter now anyways. All I would hope is that some of your colonies make it thru the winter - and this hive can be "replaced" come spring time.
I know, that's kind of why I'm not sure what to do.  As infected as they are, I'm not sure why they aren't already dead.  If I treat them again and clean up the mites, at least they have a chance, but I have to weigh the cost against the probability of it working, especially if the only thing I can get my hands on is Apivar. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2021, 12:37:38 am »
One good thing about mites is if they are contained .. they die with the bees.
A suggestion is to assess the size of the colony cluster at this point.  If the infestation is that high, they are essentially dead-bees-walking. If they do survive past the next 2 weeks, there is likely to be merely 20 percent of the bees left from what is in there now.  Add in the time of the year where there are very little to mo new bees being raised for awhile, due to fall/winter.  Is the population so huge now to overcome that loss level and carryon?  ( I would have doubts.). If so then maybe try.  If not, it may be best to consider to contain the infestation by bag em and freeze them to prevent spread if/when/as the hive crashes.  It is much easier to repopulate with splits in spring into cleaned equipment than to attempt to nurse along a terminal condition and fail anyways. Imho.
As we mature in beekeeping experiences, what once presented as agonizingly tough decisions become easy, quick, and comforting.
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline NigelP

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2021, 04:46:50 am »
Buy yourself an Oxalic Acid vaporiser and a particle filter mask for your own protection ASAP.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2021, 05:15:58 am »
We have a member, (rast), who makes these similar to the old JohnO style. Or did last I heard.

I think Iddee, another member, sells them at Beez Needs?

I am still surprised that formic pro did not do the job.,  :shocked:
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2021, 08:42:01 am »
If the infestation is that high, they are essentially dead-bees-walking.
I agree.
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Online The15thMember

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2021, 05:23:28 pm »
I guess what I really need to do first is check the other colonies.  If I have to purchase more treatments for the other colonies, then I guess I may as well treat these guys too and see what happens.  If it's just this hive looking bad, then it'll depend on the price.  The colony is not small, but I'm not sure that 20% of their size is survivable.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2021, 05:29:50 pm »
I guess what I really need to do first is check the other colonies.  If I have to purchase more treatments for the other colonies, then I guess I may as well treat these guys too and see what happens.  If it's just this hive looking bad, then it'll depend on the price.  The colony is not small, but I'm not sure that 20% of their size is survivable.   


Keep us updated Member. This is a good topic for learning.
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline LawyerRick

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2021, 04:44:05 pm »
I was wondering if the mites that were under the caps became phoretic or dispersed after all of the brood hatched.  I had a somewhat interesting experience this summer when I caged a queen & gave them a brood break, mite numbers soared, i.e.2/100 before brood break, 15/100 3 weeks later.  Obviously, I treated them promptly & the numbers went down.  The only thing that came into mind was that the all of the mites under capped brood were born in a 3 week period, causing mite numbers to soar.  Anyone else had this happen? 

Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2021, 05:38:25 pm »
Yes, that mite-under-brood timing is THE main challenge we have with any mite treatment method. What is interesting about this particular case is the use of FormicPro and results showing it being ineffective.  Formic supposedly permeates caps and able to get in the cells to impact mite-under-brood.  In this case it did not work as expected. Could be various reasons why. Low ambient temperatures at the time it was used, resulting in a slow formic release below the lethal level needed to impact the mites would be a primary guess. A migratory infestation from some other crashing hive(s) nearby is also very possible considering the time of the beeyear calendar this is occurring.
It is not unusual to have clean hives in late summer, early Fall, and come back later to find sky-high mite levels. Usually, the cause is some other colonies nearby crashing and the absconding of infested bees drifting into the clean colonies or/and robbing of the crashing hives by the nearby strong clean hives. Those nearby crashing colonies could be feral or managed, makes no difference. Hence, the suggestion that when found containing (bag/freeze) such a terminal colony is usually the best course of action - when taking a holistic perspective of the Apiary (all hives in the area).
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2021, 05:56:56 pm »
I have studied, and accepted with the understanding as you stated; Formic takes care of the problem of varroa both above and below the cappings.  Therefore I was puzzled by this. Your explanation of the possibilities bring things into a different perspective. Especially the part "A migratory infestation from some other crashing hive nearby is also very possible considering the time of the beeyear calendar this is occurring."   

2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2021, 06:06:18 pm »
I was wondering if the mites that were under the caps became phoretic or dispersed after all of the brood hatched.  I had a somewhat interesting experience this summer when I caged a queen & gave them a brood break, mite numbers soared, i.e.2/100 before brood break, 15/100 3 weeks later.  Obviously, I treated them promptly & the numbers went down.  The only thing that came into mind was that the all of the mites under capped brood were born in a 3 week period, causing mite numbers to soar.  Anyone else had this happen?

LawyerRick, It is good you got the numbers down. What method did you use as treatment for your described hive and how did things turn out in the end? (referring to mite counts after treatment 'number wise', along with over all hive health)?

Thanks,

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2021, 06:59:23 pm »
So I did sugar rolls on the other colonies I treated, one of which was at 10% and the other at 9% when I treated them.  Today the one was at 3%, and the other was still at 9%.  2 of the FormicPro doses I used were from the same batch, and the third was from a different batch, and it seems oddly coincidental that 2 of the hives had no improvement and 1 did.  I'm thinking something may have been wrong with that one two-pack of FormicPro.

I was wondering if the mites that were under the caps became phoretic or dispersed after all of the brood hatched.  I had a somewhat interesting experience this summer when I caged a queen & gave them a brood break, mite numbers soared, i.e.2/100 before brood break, 15/100 3 weeks later.  Obviously, I treated them promptly & the numbers went down.  The only thing that came into mind was that the all of the mites under capped brood were born in a 3 week period, causing mite numbers to soar.  Anyone else had this happen? 
 
I've had this happen before, but all three of these colonies still have a little bit of brood, so I don't think it applies in this case.

Yes, that mite-under-brood timing is THE main challenge we have with any mite treatment method. What is interesting about this particular case is the use of FormicPro and results showing it being ineffective.  Formic supposedly permeates caps and able to get in the cells to impact mite-under-brood.  In this case it did not work as expected. Could be various reasons why. Low ambient temperatures at the time it was used, resulting in a slow formic release below the lethal level needed to impact the mites would be a primary guess.
I actually treated these colonies in higher temperatures than I have ever used FormicPro before, so that's not it.

A migratory infestation from some other crashing hive(s) nearby is also very possible considering the time of the beeyear calendar this is occurring.
It is not unusual to have clean hives in late summer, early Fall, and come back later to find sky-high mite levels. Usually, the cause is some other colonies nearby crashing and the absconding of infested bees drifting into the clean colonies or/and robbing of the crashing hives by the nearby strong clean hives. Those nearby crashing colonies could be feral or managed, makes no difference. Hence, the suggestion that when found containing (bag/freeze) such a terminal colony is usually the best course of action - when taking a holistic perspective of the Apiary (all hives in the area).
This could be a contributing factor, as I suspect this is what happened that led me to treat.  Most of my colonies were hovering around 1-3% mites at the end of July and in a matter of a couple weeks these 3 colonies were up near 10%.  Interestingly enough, I had another colony at almost 4% at the end of July and their numbers went down to below 1% as the other colonies skyrocketed, which seemed odd.  I even checked them again to be sure their numbers weren't a fluke.  I was not able to get into that colony to check their numbers today, as it started to rain, but I'm curious where they are. 

So I'm going to call around and see what treatments are available locally and at what prices to see what I want to do.  If it was just the 22% colony I was dealing with, I'd call it quits and bag them up, but with at least one more colony that needs treating, I may just treat them too and see what happens.   



 
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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2021, 08:16:53 pm »
All the farm stores around me have stopped carrying bee supplies for some reason, but my sister's hay guy turned me on to an apple orchard that sells bee stuff, and they have Api Life Var, so I guess that's what I'll be using.  I'll run out and get it tomorrow.     
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Offline LawyerRick

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2021, 06:53:06 pm »
When I found the 15/100 mite count, I was lucky enough to have temps below 85F so I first gave them 2 grams of OAV then I used formic pro. I used the 2 treatments with 1 pad each time. By the end of the 2 week formic pro treatment, had no mites (0/100) but I know that wasn't 100% accurate.  Whenever I have this type of situation, i.e. very high mite counts, I just want to kill those 'destructive pest' asap & formic pro is my go to product, although I also like Apiguard & Apilifevar & have used them with a lot of success.  I also like to hit them with OAV, 2 grams per deep as a first intervention then the other miticides are used that I described.  Hope that helps.




« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 09:15:34 pm by Ben Framed »

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2021, 12:20:14 pm »



LawyerRick, It is good you got the numbers down. What method did you use as treatment for your described hive and how did things turn out in the end? (referring to mite counts after treatment 'number wise', along with over all hive health)?

Thanks,

Phillip


When I found the 15/100 mite count, I was lucky enough to have temps below 85F so I first gave them 2 grams of OAV then I used formic pro. I used the 2 treatments with 1 pad each time. By the end of the 2 week formic pro treatment, had no mites (0/100) but I know that wasn't 100% accurate.  Whenever I have this type of situation, i.e. very high mite counts, I just want to kill those 'destructive pest' asap & formic pro is my go to product, although I also like Apiguard & Apilifevar & have used them with a lot of success.  I also like to hit them with OAV, 2 grams per deep as a first intervention then the other miticides are used that I described.  Hope that helps.


Yes that explanation is helpful. Thanks
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2021, 10:00:39 pm »
Finally I got the ApiLife Var on today.  It's been either too cold, too rainy, or both for the past few days.  It was really easy to use and seemed less scary to handle than the FormicPro, although I was still careful not to get it on my skin or breathe it in, but it smelled nice.  I figured I shouldn't have the moisture quilts on with the treatment, so I put solid inner covers on the hives with the holes taped shut, then the moisture quilts, just as insulation, and then the telescoping or migratory tops.  Hopefully I don't have any issues with condensation.  We'll see how the ApiLife Var works.  My temps are set to be hovering right around the low end of the acceptable range for the product, and it's a 3 week treatment so hopefully we don't get a cold snap.     
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: Mite Count Numbers Skyrocket AFTER Treatment
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2021, 02:51:17 pm »
Wondering what the results are .. ?
When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

 

anything