Author Topic: Drying honey (Read 6108 times)

Beeboy01 · « **on:** June 11, 2018, 10:15:37 am »

Pulled some boxes over the weekend and ended up with three shallows full of capped comb. Just for the heck of it I checked the moisture content of the honey in different frames. I was a bit surprised at the difference, some came in at 18% while others were as high as 21%. I've set them up in a small air tight room with a fan and dehumidifier to dry out over the next two or three days. Going to monitor the moisture content in different frames just to see how well the setup works if it works at all.

Waveeater · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2018, 03:55:14 pm »

Let us know the outcome. Good luck.

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2018, 05:10:35 pm »

Well I checked some of the frames and the moisture content has dropped by about 1/2%. I just changed the setup by spreading the frames out in four boxes instead of three to get more air flow between then. I'm drying 24 frames and have six per box arranged with the frames directly over each other. I started with eight per box but realized no air was getting between them. I also put a much larger fan on the top of the supers to increase the airflow. The setup right now from the top down is a fan blowing out, a empty box to act as a plenum, then four boxes with six frames a piece all stacked on 2x4's for a air space under everything.
So far it looks like the wetter honey and the dryer honey are drying at the same speed, the 18% is down to 17.5% and one frame of 20% is down to 19.5%. With the new fan and spread out frames I"m expecting the drying to go a lot quicker, hoping for at least a 1% drop every 24 hours. Going to give it another day and check again.

Acebird · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2018, 05:22:36 pm »

How dry is the air you are passing over the frames? Every time you enter the room to check you let in a ton of moisture that the dehumidifier has to remove.

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2018, 08:28:39 pm »

Ace, I'm only checking them twice a day and have both a dehumidifier and a window AC unit running. The room is only about 10x10 feet with an 7 foot ceiling and is pretty much air tight. It's dry in there even with twice a day checks. Moving the frames father apart and using a larger fan to draw air through the boxes is going to make a big improvement over my initial setup.

Barhopper · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2018, 08:58:42 pm »

What type of refractometer are you using?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2018, 12:24:27 am »

I?m drying 3 gallon buckets of honey using the drip method. When I started the humidity in the House was 52-54%. My hive has been doing a lot of cooking and now it is at 44%.The heat makes the AC work more and pull out more moisture. I have dropped the honey from 19% to 18.5 and 18. Still working on the rest. It has taken more drip cycles than normal to get them down. Now that it is at 44% it is working better.
Jim

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2018, 10:45:12 am »

I tried the drip method last year with 4 gallons that read 20%. I set it up in the tub in the spare bathroom but didn't have a lot of luck with it. Only dropped it down to a 19% moisture after three or four drops. I should of set up the dehumidifier in the room but didn't. That's why I'm trying drying the honey in the frames with a fan pulling dry air around them.
Drying the honey while still in the frames gives a large surface area, the fan gives a large air flow across them and the closed room with the dehumidifier and AC unit provides a large amount of dry air to pick up the moisture. So far it seems to be working, some of the honey drips on the top bars have dried to the point they are almost like gum drops.

DuaneB · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2018, 02:49:47 pm »

Showing my new-bee-ness, what should the moisture content be? I didn't know it needed to be at a certain level. And, what does that do to/for the honey?

Thanks

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2018, 03:46:03 pm »

"Showing my new-bee-ness, what should the moisture content be? I didn't know it needed to be at a certain level. And, what does that do to/for the honey?"
DuaneB, the moisture content should below 18.6%, anything above that and there is a good chance the honey will ferment. A lower moisture content in honey can also keep it from crystallizing sugars out of solution.
It's been 24 hours and I just checked the honey, so far I'm only removing 1/2 % per day even with the larger fan, I expected faster drying and will extract tomorrow instead of today.
looks like the basic idea is good, maybe a square box made out of plywood with just the dehumifier, supers and fan would be more efficient.

DuaneB · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2018, 03:43:02 pm »

What are you checking the humidity level with?

Thanks

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2018, 07:48:03 pm »

I'm using a hand held refractometer to check the moisture content of the honey, bought it from Mann Lake a few years ago. It's nothing special but has stayed in calibration every time I check. I don't have any way to check the humidity in the air which would be a help.
All the frames of honey finally got down below 18%, most showed a 1 1/2 % drop with some dropping 2% so I extracted today. Ended up with about eight gallons total.

Acebird · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:25:12 pm »

How old is the dehumidifier? It should be telling you what the room RH is.

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2018, 10:47:43 pm »

Ace, I'm guessing it's at least 20 years old. Nothing high tech with any type of readout. The only control on it is a dial that goes from dry to very dry.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2018, 11:37:44 pm »

Quote from: Beeboy01 on June 13, 2018, 07:48:03 pm

I'm using a hand held refractometer to check the moisture content of the honey, bought it from Mann Lake a few years ago. It's nothing special but has stayed in calibration every time I check. I don't have any way to check the humidity in the air which would be a help.
All the frames of honey finally got down below 18%, most showed a 1 1/2 % drop with some dropping 2% so I extracted today. Ended up with about eight gallons total.

Beeboy,
1 1/2% drop is great, my best with, right now, 46% room humidity, is .5% per drop with the normal being .25%. That dehumidifier is really making a big difference.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2018, 08:10:37 am »

Quote from: Beeboy01 on June 13, 2018, 10:47:43 pm

Ace, I'm guessing it's at least 20 years old.

I think I would grab one at HD or Lowes and set the box on edge and point the dehumidifier at the bottom of the box. You could eliminate the blower. Also the air coming out of the dehumidifier would be the warmest and driest before it hits the frames. An additional blower can screw up the room circulation by pushing the dry air back into the condenser side of the dehumidifier.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #16 on:** June 14, 2018, 06:23:45 pm »

@ beeboy and Jim

Have either one of you lost honey in the past by extracting all caped honey and not checking the mosture content? Thanks, Phillip Hall

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 14, 2018, 07:32:39 pm »

Ben, Yes I've lost honey due to high moisture levels. Mainly Cabbage Palm which comes in around 20% even when capped. I pulled about ten gallons once right after a week of heavy rain and it fermented in about two months. The ball jars would foam over when opened. Didn't have a refractometer at the time but I would guess it had to be at 21% moisture or higher. I've also found that bottling the honey is better than letting it sit in a bucket. The bucket seems to crystallize faster than the individual bottles.
Been trying different methods and so far drying in the room has worked the best.
Being able to monitor the RH of the room would be a big advantage but being on a budget makes me work with what I have on hand. I'll put a new dehumidifier on my wish list. Maybe I'll get a small one with a RH monitor and run both at the same time.

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2018, 09:05:09 pm »

Quote from: Ben Framed on June 14, 2018, 06:23:45 pm

@ beeboy and Jim

Have either one of you lost honey in the past by extracting all caped honey and not checking the mosture content? Thanks, Phillip Hall

I had a 5 gallon bucket of honey ferment before I got a refractmeter.
I think it is important to have one if you are dealing with a lot of honey.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2018, 09:08:03 pm »

Quote from: Beeboy01 on June 14, 2018, 07:32:39 pm

I pulled about ten gallons once right after a week of heavy rain and it fermented in about two months.

You lost 10 gal or honey! 120 pounds, being conservative @6/lb = $720 and you can't afford a new dehumidifier? Beeboy arithmetic is not that hard. You paid for three dehumidifies but you still have the old one. It is OK to make a mistake when your learning but to keep making it...

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 14, 2018, 09:08:15 pm »

Beeboy,
Sounds like your dehydrator is doing a very good job. I would not replace it.
Jim
Edit, I posted this at the same time Ace posted.

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 14, 2018, 10:20:18 pm »

Ace, it was long ago I lost that honey and it wasn't a complete loss, it made a great mead. I've learned by my mistake and it hasn't happened since. As to the math, hindsight is 20/20 and there isn't much that can be done after the fact. Crying over spilled milk never helps. I wasn't using the dehumidifier at the time but looking back wished I had.

Acebird · « **Reply #22 on:** June 15, 2018, 08:29:16 am »

Quote from: Beeboy01 on June 14, 2018, 10:20:18 pm

Ace, it was long ago I lost that honey and it wasn't a complete loss, it made a great mead.

Best idea ever. I am trying to get you to look forward not back. Make your life easier. There is no reason you can't use the old dehumidifier along with a new one that gives a read out. The new one can be the smallest one you can find with a read out. I assume your beekeeping adventure will grow not shrink.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #23 on:** June 16, 2018, 07:20:40 am »

Quote from beeboy
Pulled some boxes over the weekend and ended up with three shallows full of capped comb.

Quote from Myself
@ beeboy and Jim
Have either one of you lost honey in the past by extracting all CAPPED honey and not checking the mosture content?

Quote from Beeboy
Ben, Yes I've lost honey due to high moisture levels. Mainly Cabbage Palm which comes in around 20% even when capped.

Quote from Jim
I had a 5 gallon bucket of honey ferment before I got a refractmeter.

Well thanks for the information, I have never heard of anyone loosing all capped honey due to fermentation which was due to moisture from all capped comb. I was taught that as long as all comb is capped, it is safe for extracting. This is news to me, thank you for the information, Thanks for sharing the information. Has anyone else out there ever lost honey which was extracted from ALL CAPPED comb? Thanks, Phillip Hall

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2018, 08:19:23 am »

Phillip,
Your palm honey, especially cabbage palm is a very wet nectar and it grows in very humid climates, Florida. The bees will cap it even at 19%.
Jim

Ben Framed · « **Reply #25 on:** June 17, 2018, 10:53:18 am »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 17, 2018, 08:19:23 am

Phillip,
Your palm honey, especially cabbage palm is a very wet nectar and it grows in very humid climates, Florida. The bees will cap it even at 19%.
Jim

Thanks Jim, and Happy Fathers Day! I know that you know about these things and are far, far (light years) advanced in knodlege compared to my humble beginnings. I am intrigued with these wonderful insects "Gifts of God" And am trying to learn all I can. Even the Bible mentions bees more than once. The Land of Milk and Honey, and Sampsons riddle, maybe other examples. Each time I have a question that I can't find the answer to, I come here to Beemaster Forum. Now is one of those questions. I want to ask, once the comb is capped, and I am thinking capped means sealed, how is it possible to evaporate "dry" the capped honey being the capped honey is no longer exposed to the open elements or atmosphere. I know it is possible, other wise we couldn't do it. Yesterday I found a video on this subject as I was trying to find this answer. The video didn't explain this question. Please educate me .. Thanks Phillip Hall "Ben Framed". PS Happy Fathers Day to all you Daddy's! 😁

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 17, 2018, 11:48:20 am »

Ben Framed
?Now is one of those questions. I want to ask, once the comb is capped, and I am thinking capped means sealed, how is it possible to evaporate "dry" the capped honey being the capped honey is no longer exposed to the open elements or atmosphere. I know it is possible, other wise we couldn't do it. Yesterday I found a video on this subject as I was trying to find this answer.?
Phillip,
Once the bees Cap the honey it is sealed and no further drying occurs. Capping the honey keeps it from absorbing moisture from the air which would allow it to ferment.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #27 on:** June 17, 2018, 11:50:44 am »

Ben think of wax as if it was plastic wrap. Some materials allow moisture to pass through it. Most people assume that it doesn't but it does. Wax is like that. Now metal will not let moisture through it. Tear a juice pack apart. The plastic bag is usually foil faced for that reason.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #28 on:** June 17, 2018, 11:55:28 am »

Quote from: Acebird on June 17, 2018, 11:50:44 am

Ben think of wax as if it was plastic wrap. Some materials allow moisture to pass through it. Most people assume that it doesn't but it does. Wax is like that. Now metal will not let moisture through it. Tear a juice pack apart. The plastic bag is usually foil faced for that reason.

✅. Thanks Jim, Phillip

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 17, 2018, 11:58:19 am »

Happy Father?s Day.
I have been drying honey for several days using the drip method over and over again. Guess what I just received for Father?s Day, a 50 pint dehumidifier. It immediately stared dropping the humidity down even in our large dining room/living room/kitchen. The air at the buckets is now at 40% down from 48%. Pretty good for less than an hour. If I move the drying to a small room I should be able to take the humidity down to 30%. That is what I will do the next time.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #30 on:** June 17, 2018, 11:58:47 am »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 17, 2018, 11:48:20 am

Capping the honey keeps it from absorbing moisture from the air which would allow it to ferment.
Jim

Jim it doesn't stop it, it only slows it down. It doesn't ferment in the hive because the bees are keeping the RH around 50. If you take the frames out of the hive and store them in your 85-90% RH that honey is gaining moisture even though they are capped. Don't store the honey in the frame under these conditions. Extract it and bottle it. Extracted honey used to be stored in 60# tins. Metal and glass do not let moisture pass through it.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #31 on:** June 17, 2018, 12:17:06 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 17, 2018, 11:58:19 am

Happy Father?s Day.
I have been drying honey for several days using the drip method over and over again. Guess what I just received for Father?s Day, a 50 pint dehumidifier. It immediately stared dropping the humidity down even in our large dining room/living room/kitchen. The air at the buckets is now at 40% down from 48%. Pretty good for less than an hour. If I move the drying to a small room I should be able to take the humidity down to 30%. That is what I will do the next time.
Jim

Yes a wonderful gift! Especially in the cabbage palm area of our country. And sounds as it is doing a bang up good job. Keep up the good work!!
Philip

Acebird · « **Reply #32 on:** June 17, 2018, 12:21:48 pm »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 17, 2018, 11:58:19 am

It immediately stared dropping the humidity down even in our large dining room/living room/kitchen.

I am going to through a recommendation out to all my friends in FL who are drying honey to not use a room that has exterior walls if your house is stick built. Concrete construction might be OK. When you create a very dry space in a very moist climate you increase the moisture passing through the walls. It may cause condensation in the walls and rot or create mold. Use an interior room like a closet that has no exterior walls.
https://www.wbdg.org/resources/moisture-management

Ben Framed · « **Reply #33 on:** June 17, 2018, 12:48:31 pm »

Quote from: Acebird on June 17, 2018, 12:21:48 pm

Quote from: sawdstmakr on June 17, 2018, 11:58:19 am
It immediately stared dropping the humidity down even in our large dining room/living room/kitchen.

I am going to through a recommendation out to all my friends in FL who are drying honey to not use a room that has exterior walls if your house is stick built. Concrete construction might be OK. When you create a very dry space in a very moist climate you increase the moisture passing through the walls. It may cause condensation in the walls and rot or create mold. Use an interior room like a closet that has no exterior walls.
https://www.wbdg.org/resources/moisture-management

Through the walls Ace? Come on now. The humidifier is not running on a jet powered engine. If it is, it will probably suck the walls and ceiling together! Just kidding Ace Happy Fathers Day! I will check out the link.. Thanks Phillip Hall

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #34 on:** June 17, 2018, 05:41:05 pm »

Ace,
The problem we have down here with humidity and AC is not dropping the humidity down too much, it is dropping the temperature down without getting the humidity down. That makes the walls and items in the house cold enough to cause the water to condense on them and the mold starts growing. If you put an AC unit that is too big for the space of the house it does not run long enough to pull the water out and you can have that problem.
Jim

Acebird · « **Reply #35 on:** June 18, 2018, 10:01:21 am »

If the AC unit is too big then unfortunately the only solution is to put a heating coil in front of the condenser so it doesn't ice up. Once the air in the room gets dry enough then you can turn off the heating coil. The next unfortunate problem is you don't want to turn the air conditioner off or down because you would have to use the heating coil again.
A dehumidifier is essentially an air conditioner where the condensing coils are lined up with the evaporator coils. So if you heat the air going into your air conditioner you have essentially made a dehumidifier. Do to inefficiency a dehumidifier will raise the temperature of a room.

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #36 on:** June 18, 2018, 11:14:43 am »

"Do to inefficiency a dehumidifier will raise the temperature of a room",you are correct with that statement Ace. When I first tried drying honey using a dehumidifier two or three years ago I didn't run an air conditioner and had the room heat up to almost 95 degrees in about eight hours.
I was trying to dry buckets of honey at the time with the stir method and found that there wasn't enough surface area to make it effective. That is why I dried this batch of honey while still in the comb. Even capped honey will give up moisture in a dry environment with a good air flow over it.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #37 on:** June 18, 2018, 11:46:38 am »

Quote from: Ben Framed on June 17, 2018, 11:55:28 am

Quote from: Acebird on June 17, 2018, 11:50:44 am
Ben think of wax as if it was plastic wrap. Some materials allow moisture to pass through it. Most people assume that it doesn't but it does. Wax is like that. Now metal will not let moisture through it. Tear a juice pack apart. The plastic bag is usually foil faced for that reason.

✅. Thanks Jim, Phillip

Woops, that should have been thank you Ace...