Author Topic: Ways of promoting early season drone buildup? (Read 3461 times)

Ben Framed · « **on:** December 16, 2018, 02:15:58 am »

Anyone know of methods of promoting early season drone buildup in order to be ready for the earliest spring grafted queens? Do we simply have to wait on nature or is there a way to (jump start) drone rearing?
Thanks, Phillip Hall

blackforest beekeeper · « **Reply #1 on:** December 16, 2018, 05:09:57 am »

there is a saying in German meaning: early queen rearing is really a p...in...th...a...
better wait for good conditions.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #2 on:** December 16, 2018, 08:45:00 am »

Quote from: blackforest beekeeper on December 16, 2018, 05:09:57 am

there is a saying in German meaning: early queen rearing is really a p...in...th...a...
better wait for good conditions.

Ah haa haa haa , There is a saying in America ; No pain no gain 😊😁. Thanks BlackForrest, I appreicate what you are saying but I don't mind trying if I can jump start a couple weeks or more. I am in zone 8 and the weather here is not drastic as a little further North of us. I am going for it, if I can get the information that I seek. But I thank you for your reply.
Phillip

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 16, 2018, 08:47:32 am »

Phillip,
Hope for warm weather. Some years when it warms up early, they will start swarming.
Jim

minz · « **Reply #4 on:** December 16, 2018, 12:17:44 pm »

just give them drone comb in the center of the brood nest. She is not going to ignore it and I doubt the bees would back fill it. If they do you had better get it back out to the edges or they will be in the trees.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #5 on:** December 16, 2018, 01:48:47 pm »

The requirements are
A MITE FREE HIVE
Warm weather
Very strong colony, lotsa bees.
Drone comb
Copious constant feed of pollen/sub and syrup
Begin drones program 30 days before starting queen rearing program.

Raising drones consumes ALOT of energy and resources. Much to rear the brood comb and much to care for them after they have emerged during their flight hardening development.

Start the drone hive at least 30 days before starting queens. It is nice when you can find that historically excellent old queen in apiary that has finally runout and has become a drone layer. That makes things easier. Particularly with respect to swarm control.

Make-up the drone hive much like a cell builder. Shake in a-lot of young bees. Hive FULL of bees. Add the green drone comb frames. 3 frames max. Add feed. Add a label to the hive called -THE BARRACKS- :)
When a frame is capped, remove and place another comb. Move the capped drones to another strong hive to emerge and develop. Put copius feed on the development hive too.
Inspect often for swarm tendencies and apply controls.

Some years it goes very well, drones everywhere. Other years the bees just dont want to cooperative, drones shortage. Have not completely cracked the code yet.

Hope that helps! Have fun with it.

PS: imho, this topic, this thread, ideal should be moved to the REQUEENING & RAISING QUEENS category?

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #6 on:** December 16, 2018, 04:33:23 pm »

HP: Copious constant feed of pollen/sub and syrup
Begin drones program 30 days before starting queen rearing program.

Yep, you got that right, food food food, lots of nurse bees needed for drones and royal jelly for the new queens to be.

After cell release, drones take 10 days to mature, reason HP text 30 days prior, although I can?t exactly speak for HP.

I always wondered if a laying worker produced viable drones? I don?t know for sure, but would be a constant source if they worked.

In a hurry Mr. Ben,,, lol,,, it?s not even New Year. Well, I guess Mr. Ben gets an A plus for preplanning.

Ask Santa for drones!!!!! Dear Santa..... There ya have it.
Blessings

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 16, 2018, 10:30:00 pm »

Stinger,
A drone laying queen?s drones are no different from than a mated queen. There will only be a difference in size if she is laying eggs in worker cells. If she has enough drone comb they will be the same.
Jim

Ben Framed · « **Reply #8 on:** December 16, 2018, 11:03:47 pm »

Thanks to each of you for your replies!! blackforest beekeeper, sawdstmakr, minz, TheHoneyPump, and Stinger13

blackforest: I might be crying the Mississippi Delta Blues before its said and done, but I just have to give it a try. I thank you for giving me the warning and advise even so.

sawdstmakr: Jim, I will be hoping for that early warm weather this late winter and early spring!!

minz: Thanks for the advice on the drone comb and I will watch them close as I certinally don't want to watch them in the trees. I love birds but am not a bird watcher per say!! I sure don't want to watch my bees next to them in the trees! As the fact of business, I am not a good climber either!! Ha haa

TheHoneyPump"Some years it goes very well, drones everywhere. Other years the bees just dont want to cooperative, drones shortage. Have not completely cracked the code yet"
Well, maybe not Mr Claude but you sure are close! All that seems to be left to cracking the code is the last number on the combination! The information that you provided makes very good sense to me and I look forward, with eagerness, to putting your well explained program into reality here!

Stinger13 " I guess Mr. Ben gets an A plus for preplanning.Ask Santa for drones!!!!! Dear Santa..... There ya have it."
Mr Van, I thank you for the A on preplanning, I am striving for an A on the real test!! This should be fun!!

Thanks again Friends, Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #9 on:** December 17, 2018, 12:26:00 am »

Quote from: sawdstmakr on December 16, 2018, 10:30:00 pm

Stinger,
A drone laying queen?s drones are no different from than a mated queen. There will only be a difference in size if she is laying eggs in worker cells. If she has enough drone comb they will be the same.
Jim

Agreed.

However I was referring to a laying worker, queenless hive that generates drones.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #10 on:** December 17, 2018, 02:16:49 am »

The issue I would expect with laying workers is that while genetically they should produce viable drones ... those workers will be laying anywhere and everywhere. Most of the drones would be raised in worker cells. Therefore most of the drones would be skinny undersized runts. How that affects their mating prowess and effectiveness? I believe there was a study on such indicating they are up to the task, but I do not off hand recall the results accurately. The brood raised in laying worker hives tend to have a low survival rate and be very spotty, so it is not likely to be a mass producer of drones either. I suppose what could be tried is a colony forced to become laying workers and be given only drone comb (those green frames) to work with. There it is, an interesting experiment to try if it has not already been done and published somewhere.

Ben, I think that last number in the combination to crack is: what will the season look like, when will spring arrive, when will it rain, when will it be windy, when will the cold front come through, when will the heat wave hit. .... Despite all the letters I have sent to the Farmers Almanac over the years requesting them to up their game and get more precise, and while surely they continue to do their very best, I can still have only 50:50 confidence in anything they publish.

blackforest beekeeper · « **Reply #11 on:** December 17, 2018, 02:54:52 am »

I cannot a imagine that a drone-laying /old) queen will have good enough eggs for good drones and good sperm. Also I don`t think they will be good enough to make the run up there with the queen. They will be milling around....
Also I think a certain genetic diversity has to be supplied.
For me, the best queen rearing time seems to be the swarm season when they do it of their own free will. It you want to select for drones and think more are needed, put dronecomb into some of your best hives (I don`t know: the best quarter?) and remove drone brood from the ones you don`t want to reproduce. 30 days prior to grafting/onset of swarm season.
that will be easy going for the bees and you.
I once set everything to graft on a certain date and had a foot of snow in the grafting yard then....

Ben Framed · « **Reply #12 on:** December 17, 2018, 04:04:03 am »

TheHoneyPump "Ben, I think that last number in the combination to crack is: what will the season look like, when will spring arrive, when will it rain, when will it be windy, when will the cold front come through, when will the heat wave hit. .... Despite all the letters I have sent to the Farmers Almanac over the years requesting them to up their game and get more precise, and while surely they continue to do their very best, I can still have only 50:50 confidence in anything they publish."

AH ha haha haha

So the last number in the combination is that number is always changing! In that case, you can't do any better than already stated. I look forward to the challenge!

blackforest beekeeper "I once set everything to graft on a certain date and had a foot of snow in the grafting yard then...."

Yes I see your point! Hopefully, in my area, (Zone Eight) Things won't be that drastic but we can never tell! It seems in my area, that year to year in late winter and early spring, the weather can vary a good bit from year to year, so I will hope for the best and try and do my best. Cross my fingers and say a prayer! Remember blackforest, this was my first season and I'm ambitious! You probably remember how it was for you. Wish me luck and no snow! Especially not a foot!

blackforest beekeeper · « **Reply #13 on:** December 17, 2018, 04:14:58 am »

Quote from: Ben Framed on December 17, 2018, 04:04:03 am

TheHoneyPump "Ben, I think that last number in the combination to crack is: what will the season look like, when will spring arrive, when will it rain, when will it be windy, when will the cold front come through, when will the heat wave hit. .... Despite all the letters I have sent to the Farmers Almanac over the years requesting them to up their game and get more precise, and while surely they continue to do their very best, I can still have only 50:50 confidence in anything they publish."

AH ha haha haha So the last number in the combination is that number is always changing! In that case, you can't do any better than already stated. I look forward to the challenge!

blackforest beekeeper "I once set everything to graft on a certain date and had a foot of snow in the grafting yard then...."

Yes I see your point! Hopefully, in my area, (Zone Eight) Things won't be that drastic but we can never tell! It seems in my area, that year to year in late winter and early spring, the weather can vary a good bit from year to year, so I will hope for the best and try and do my best. Cross my fingers and say a prayer! Remember blackforest, this was my first season and I'm ambitious! You probably remember how it was for you. Wish me luck and no snow! Especially not a foot!

those mistakes is just what I wanted to warn you of.

good luck?

Ben Framed · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2018, 05:04:03 am »

BlackForest " those mistakes is just what I wanted to warn you of.

good luck?"

Thanks my Friend

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 17, 2018, 07:41:32 am »

Phillip,
I am in the same situation as you. This year I want to make up spilts using double screen boards and have the splits ready for separating by BeeFest which is March 16. That means that the screens need to go on on February 14. Some years that is too soon. What I will bee doing is inspecting for drones on that date and if I have purple eyed drone pupa, I will start the splits. During Beefest, we will inspect the splits and make up new hives and maybe make new splits from the old queens in the bottom boxes.
Jim

Michael Bush · « **Reply #16 on:** December 17, 2018, 09:43:21 am »

>A MITE FREE HIVE

No such hive exists in North America or most of the rest of the world...

The problem with the question of how to get drones early, is that it depends very much on your climate. In my climate, most years, feeding early (pollen and/or syrup) might succeed at pushing the bees earlier, but late freezes often make that into a disaster. In your climate it might work out better than it does in my climate. Drone rearing is dependent on resources coming in and the bees' perception of that. Rearing brood too early, in my climate, often results in bees being stuck on brood in a cold snap and starving as a result of not leaving the brood.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2018, 12:42:09 am »

Thanks also Michale Bush, seems I am playing a deadly game here, I certainly don't want the bees to starve protecting drone brood. With the input form each of you, at least I know it can be done. Now, I have to ask myself do I really want to take the gamble on the weather? (and not being able to predict the weather just as HP, Blackforrest, Jim and yourself and the others have explained), and being I really don't want to loose a hive on a gamble, I, and my aggressive desire to get a head start on the coming breeding season, must reconsider my thoughts on this matter. I thank each of you for your time and effort in responding to this question as it is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely, Phillip Hall.

blackforest beekeeper · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2018, 02:38:51 am »

Even if the queens make it to flying, they might not be as good as they could be a couple of weeks later. Also, the drones might not be as good. So.....
All in all Your gamble will be around for a couple of years....

Michael Bush · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2018, 12:49:50 pm »

It may not be much of a gamble in MS. It is in NE.

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #20 on:** December 18, 2018, 03:21:34 pm »

Mr. Ben, are you close to the coast where frost is a rare event.

Every single year, in North Arkansas in February there will be some warm beautiful sunny days 60-70F I am always tempted to start queens, I get very anxious. And although tempted, every single year I wait until March to start my queen rearing as there is always killing cold snaps that appear late Feb or early March.

In Houston, Texas, only 45 miles from the coast, I have seen roses bloom in December. Proximity to the Gulf of Mexico makes a lot of difference. Just ask Jim. If the temps are in the 40Fs those folks in Florida get cold, freezing temps, a single night of frost, causes panic in the citrus counties. Front page news.

So Mr. Ben, Phil, if blue crab and oysters are close, that?s in your favor. If you are North Mississippi close to peache country, waiting will pay.
Blessings

Ben Framed · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2018, 01:05:17 am »

Thank again blackforest beekeeper, sawdstmakr, Michael Bush, and Stinger13.

Jim I hope all comes together for you by the time of BeeFest. I COMMEND you for the HARD WORK and preparation that you put into it to make sure that everyone has a good time and enjoy the bee fellowship together! Hats off to you Sir!

Mr Van I'm not at that end of the state. I am in the Northwest Corner of the state. As the crow flies, due west from me, about 10 miles is the Mississippi River, the great river which divides your great state and mine. To the North, about the same amount of miles is Tennessee. I am in the Northwest corner of Mississippi. We sometimes also have the late cold snaps such as you described. A day or two probably wouldn't hurt? That way the brood covering bees, could get relief and food soon enough I am thinking. The extended cold snap is what Michael is talking about? Is that right Michael? But on rare occasions, we have had those too. After reflecting on thoughts form each one of you who have replied here, and being I only have 7 hives and don't want to loose one, (that is of course I can successfully get all seven through the winter months), I am leaning very hard against trying to rush things this year. Now, If all goes according to plans, (planning for many hives by this time next year), the next season will be a (go for it season), provided the weather at the time looks promising. I should be more able to take the gamble with more hives and nucs in the stock pile.

Thanks, Phillip

paus · « **Reply #22 on:** December 19, 2018, 12:00:53 pm »

I have a question. Why be concerned about raising Drones? If the bees read the same book I read the Virgin Queen flies farther from the hive than her brothers can.

blackforest beekeeper · « **Reply #23 on:** December 19, 2018, 12:08:09 pm »

I am not quite sure who wrote that book. Who has been looking?

some things seem to get true by repeating them.

AR Beekeeper · « **Reply #24 on:** December 19, 2018, 02:08:49 pm »

Statement comes from studies done by Gudran and Nicholas Koeniger. There are videos on Youtube from the National Honey Show featuring them, and giving the information they learned.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #25 on:** December 19, 2018, 02:51:50 pm »

Quote from: paus on December 19, 2018, 12:00:53 pm

I have a question. Why be concerned about raising Drones? If the bees read the same book I read the Virgin Queen flies farther from the hive than her brothers can.

Perhaps because it takes two to tango? There is no point having virgins out looking to play around if there are none or not enough males to play with.

If serious about rearing queens, imho one has to be just as serious and attentive to raising drones ahead of time of the queens.

There are so many books, articles, and threads on queen rearing. Yet so little on drones rearing. Why is that?

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 19, 2018, 02:57:58 pm »

One of our entomology students at UF studied drone congregations areas and queen breeding. She also supports the area that the drones normally fly about one kilometer and the queens fly 3 or more kilometers.
Queen breeders normally set up their drone rearing colonies far enough away that the queens will mate with them. I know of one queen breeder that provides free queens to all of his neighboring beekeepers with the ones that he queens that will produce the drones that he wants his queens to mate with.
Jim