Accepted Queen in a Laying Worker Hive

[Ben Framed]

I have a curiosity question. In a situation where there is a laying worker, and as I understand it, there are usually several laying workers when a hive reaches this stage. Is that true?

If the above is true, that means the rest of the colony has accepted each one of these laying workers as a queen so to speak?  Allowing them to lay drone eggs, is this also true?

If both of the above are true, then, in a case where a beekeeper has a hopelessly queenless hive as described, and laying workers, why can't a mated, proven laying queen, be introduced into this hive with an introduction cage, leaving her for several days while the hatching worker bees which are also in the same area of the introduction cage are dwelling?

Would this new to the hive queen, now be accepted as one of the girls just as the multiple laying workers are accepted as one of the girls?

And once again, if this is accurate, wouldn't that solve a laying worker situation? Being the LWs would soon die out leaving her majesty to keep the hive going with honest offspring?

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Ben, what you propose sounds very logical, however bees don?t operate with logic.  The bees would see the queen as a threat to the hive as the introduced queen has different genetics.  Honeybees prefer there own family genetics.  This is the reason an introduced queen to a hive with queen cells is not a good idea.  Most likely the bees will kill the mated introduced queen as the bees prefer their own blood lines.

Laying worker hives are a pain.  In my experience a shake out is the best option.  Yes to your two questions: there may be many laying workers.  I do not know the life span of a laying worker, that is a good question,

There are exceptions, occasionally bees will destroy queen cells accepting a new mated queen , but this is not the norm.

So laying workers are viewed as queens.  Now one may ask: why don?t laying workers fight as queens would?  Sometimes logic just does not work with honeybees.  This is one of the attractions to bees: trying to figure out the bees, they are so dynamic.

[iddee]

Check out the queen introduction frame. It is made for just that reason. Leave her in it for a week or more and her pheremones will turn off the laying workers ovaries off and she will be accepted. Queen pheremones are stronger than laying worker pheremones, but it takes time.

https://beezneedz.com/product-category/qrs/

As Van said, I think shake out is the easiest and best way to handle them.

[Ben Framed]

Thank you both, Mr Van and Iddee. I was reading where one of our fellow members here at beenmaster is having a hard time requeening one of his hives. He has not reached laying worker status thus far, but I feel sure that he is at that point.

I was thinking about his last effort as he eagerly awaits his results of a newly introduced queen. Hopefully his efforts, this time, will be successful. As I pondered on this I remembered the introduction cages as used by Michael Palmer and taught to Richard Noel. Richard teaches how to use this introduction cage while introducing his queens as a safety measure in certain situations, and thus the birth of this topic. His may be a little larger than yours iddee but yous has the advantage of being ready made to be put into action while his has to be handmade. Thanks for posting.



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[van from Arkansas]

Check out the queen introduction frame. It is made for just that reason. Leave her in it for a week or more and her pheremones will turn off the laying workers ovaries off and she will be accepted. Queen pheremones are stronger than laying worker pheremones, but it takes time.

https://beezneedz.com/product-category/qrs/

As Van said, I think shake out is the easiest and best way to handle them.

Yes Sir, ID, that is the queen introducing cage I have been using for years.  I adore it.  The queen can spread her pheromones the entire frame length of the hive, literally from one end of the hive to the other.

I have held queens in this type of frame cage for a week with no problem.  Some queenless hives insist on building queen cells, but after a week of me inspecting and destroying queen cells, the bees finally give up and accept my queen in this large type of queen cage.  I direct release the queen by opening the top latch and removing the candy cage, so there are two openings.  I have about 85-90 percent acceptance with this cage as in your, ID, link.

[Ben Framed]

>This is the reason an introduced queen to a hive with queen cells is not a good idea.

Mr Van I should have been more clear. My original questions was referring to a hive that is hopelessly queenless. (No queen, eggs, or larva at any stage). Such as Brother Michaels in another topic. I realize his has not reached the point of Laying Worker status, but the questions spun from there. I realize he introduced frames with the tools to overcome hopelessly queenless.

It seems the question of hopelessly queenless hives which have reached LW status has been tried by many here and the questions of how to fix has been asked over and over. With the keeper almost always ending in defeat of overcoming this point of the LW hive. Even after our pros here at beemaster suggest shaking, which I also suggest and agree with. Yet in spite of this advice they continue to try, not wanting to give up. Which I also understand. But again I laid out the original questions in this topic as curiosity questions to those regards.  I did not know if the above questions would work, or was a possibility to work, but Iddees answer in reply number 2 answers that.
Again thanks all.

Check out the queen introduction frame. It is made for just that reason. Leave her in it for a week or more and her pheremones will turn off the laying workers ovaries off and she will be accepted. Queen pheremones are stronger than laying worker pheremones, but it takes time.

https://beezneedz.com/product-category/qrs/

As Van said, I think shake out is the easiest and best way to handle them.

[beesnweeds]

My experience with laying worker hives is like almost all beekeepers.  When I was a beginner I thought for sure I was gonna be the one who figures it out, yeah right didn't happen.  I was wasting frame after frame of open brood, queen cells, virgin queens, mated queens, and resources for what?  The one time I did manage to reverse a LW hive I could have simply started another nuc with less resources for what turned out to be a lousy colony anyway.  The last time I shook one out the laying workers flew to neighboring strong hives and got massacred, and the crummy drones where clinging in clumps all over.  While it was no big deal for the strong hives I think it puts unnecessary stress on them.  If I get a laying worker hive now I shake them over a tub of soapy water and start a nuc with the drawn comb and all is good.  Unless of course its late in the year then it gets stored for the following spring. 
  I like the idea of the queen intro frame but once I learned how to put a queen under a push in cage over emerging brood (even from another hive which I often do ) in a grafting class, that was it for me.  3 to 4 days the queen is accepted and laying.

[van from Arkansas]

>This is the reason an introduced queen to a hive with queen cells is not a good idea.

Mr Van I should have been more clear. My original questions was referring to a hive that is hopelessly queenless. (No queen, eggs, or larva at any stage). Such as Brother Michaels in another topic. I realize his has not reached the point of Laying Worker status, but the questions spun from there. I realize he introduced frames with the tools to overcome hopelessly queenless.

It seems the question of hopelessly queenless hives which have reached LW status has been tried by many here and the questions of how to fix has been asked over and over. With the keeper almost always ending in defeat of overcoming this point of the LW hive. Even after our pros here at beemaster suggest shaking, which I also suggest and agree with. Yet in spite of this advice they continue to try, not wanting to give up. Which I also understand. But again I laid out the original questions in this topic as curiosity questions to those regards.  I did not know if the above questions would work, or was a possibility to work, but Iddees answer in reply number 2 answers that.
Again thanks all.

Check out the queen introduction frame. It is made for just that reason. Leave her in it for a week or more and her pheremones will turn off the laying workers ovaries off and she will be accepted. Queen pheremones are stronger than laying worker pheremones, but it takes time.

https://beezneedz.com/product-category/qrs/

As Van said, I think shake out is the easiest and best way to handle them.

Phil, your original question was clear,  I am the one who drifted to the queen cage that ID referred to.  A lil off subject but relative to queens.  Although Phil you were clear, laying worker was subject and intro of a mated queen, slowly.  Mention queens and I will be on every avenue,  lol.  I just enjoy raising queens so much.....  see I drifting again.  I?m a hopeless case.  Please forgive my weakness.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Thanks Mr Van.  Drift on as I learn from your love of queens! lol 😊😁

[rast]

Mr Ben, there will not be any "hatching worker bees" in a laying worker hive. Laying workers will not develope until all queen layed brood is hatched. You would have to add a frame of brood to have any.

[Ben Framed]

Mr Ben, there will not be any "hatching worker bees" in a laying worker hive. Laying workers will not develope until all queen layed brood is hatched. You would have to add a frame of brood to have any.

That is true rast. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.


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[Michael Bush]

>as I understand it, there are usually several laying workers when a hive reaches this stage. Is that true?

No.  Not several.  Several THOUSAND.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00299895

"More than half of the bees in laying worker colonies have developed ovaries (Sakagami 1954)..."-- Reproduction by worker honey bees (Apis mellifer L.) R.E. Page Jr and E.H. Erickson Jr. - Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology August 1988, Volume 23, Issue 2, pp 117-126

http://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm