Author Topic: What to do about Varroa? (Read 5894 times)

van from Arkansas · « **on:** July 09, 2020, 07:37:18 pm »

I am certain, the opinion of treat or not to treat for Varroa needs to be respected as a high value by each and every beek. Beekeepers are as diverse as the bees we keep.

So your method of dealing with Varroa is of interest to me.
I can see Varroa mites on my bees during inspections. Of course one knows when we see Varroa, the mite load is high. I raise a lot of drones for my queens and drone brood is highly preferred by Varroa so I am not surprised at a high mite load.

Previous years I treated 4 times a year with Oxalic acid, OA, and had excellent winter survival. The problem with OA is the chemical has no effect on Varroa that is safely hidden in capped brood, requiring multiple treatments.

Swarming is an excellent means of reducing Varroa naturally, however I breed against swarming. So the advantage of swarming and reducing mites is not extended to most of my hives.

This year I am contemplating removing all capped brood to a trap hive as I will call it. Then treat the trap hive 2 weeks later after the brood has hatched. A method used across the pond for many years. There are many variations to this method such as caging the queen for 3 weeks then apply a one time treatment as there is no capped brood in the hive for Varroa to hide.

A learned fact is bees live longer IF they do not have to raise brood. So although brood is removed, the remaining bees live longer so there is not the suspected drop in bee numbers while remaining bees are healthier with loss of Varroa due to natural mite drop of 1-2 percent a day. Also fact learned is Varroa change their physiology when there is no capped brood to reproduce in. This change in physiology shuts down reproduction of Varroa and takes time for Varroa to gear up for reproduction once capped brood is available. Simply stated Varroa reproduction is halted without capped brood and takes time for Varroa to gear up reproduction to normal levels. So removing capped brood has several effects other than the obvious mite removal.

Companies such as Bayer have done excellent work developing products, strips, that eliminate Varroa but resistance becomes an issue. I am a bit bias one could say and I prefer Oxalic acid. My reasons are beyond this thread.

How you manage Varroa is of interest to me even if your method is to let alone: natural swarming, splitting are excellent natural means of control. I would enjoy this method but I have only one apiary and going natural and treating in the same apiary appears contradictory.

Ok, I have a high mite load. If I don?t reduce mites before winter bees are developed I will have heavy winter loss. Now, my bees are in a dearth, so a slight drop in numbers equals more honey for the bees this winter. I am soon to remove capped brood to a trap hive, you have thoughts I should know? I am listening.

Cheers

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2020, 08:14:10 pm »

I would think that the size of your yard is a factor in what method you decide to use. As everybody knows on this board I use a OAV wand for mite control, my preferred treatment is six or seven doses three days apart. For a large yard this would be time consuming and labor intensive. For a quick mite knock down I will still use Apivar strips but not as frequently as before.
I've never tried brood breaks mainly because I run double deeps and the work load would be more than I would want to take on. From what I understand of brood breaks a second hive needs to be set for each queen isolation and equipment would also be a limiting factor.
If I was operating a large yard my first choice would be something along the lines of a Provap 110.
I was treatment free for almost eight years using survivor hives but found that my genetics ended up with some undesirable africanized traits which included multiple swarming, aggression and very little honey production.

The15thMember · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2020, 09:46:27 pm »

As I've mentioned previously, the only chemical treatment I have ever used is MAQS/FormicPro, which I only use when my mites exceed 3-5% (depending on the season), not on any sort of schedule, and I've been quite happy with it. However, I'd like to find a reliable mechanical treatment, and as such I am also trying the mite trapping this year, a process which I'm actually starting this week. Something else I've been doing is drone trapping. I received a really good tip regarding drone trapping from a friend: she said that if you always have some open drone brood in the hive, then most of the mites will continually be in the drone brood and not in the worker brood. When I uncap the drones, I'm seeing a lot of mites, but my sugar roll numbers have been lower this year than previous years, so it seems to be helping.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2020, 09:47:23 pm »

Mr Van, I understand and fully appreciate what you have just said and are asking. Believe me, I am just as concerned about the varroa destructor. We all should be concerned in my opinion. Not only do they suck the critical fat bodies from our bees, fat bodies that are needed for maintaining health of each bee, as well as the colony for survival throughout the winter months, but the varroa destructor distributes viruses that can and WILL devastate and destroy complete colonies. There is more to the varroa destructor than meets the eye.

As you know, I talk to beekeepers all over the world. I seek knowledge of things that I do not know or understand. (And that is a lot of stuff, lol). The one thing that I have found, is the one thing which is frowned upon by my fellow beekeepers here on this forum.

German beekeepers have come up with a solution to the dreaded destructors. An organic solution. This solution seems complicated to the average American Beekeeper because of the process that is required, amounts, conditions, temperatures, etc., necessary to use this effectively and safely for our bees. I have found most beekeepers simply do not wish to go through the trouble of educating themselves, researching the safe and effective use of formic acid.

When I say safe, I am referring to safety to the hive in general and especially the queen. It is not rocket science but apparently viewed as such to most beekeepers here. The dose along with temperature, along with the amount of bees (frames of bees and boxes are part of the mathematics in determining the correct amount of dosage of formic to be administered. It is a balancing act for sure, but a reasonable attack when understood. The formic flash treatment is what I am referring too and what I intend to attempt to master in the near future.

As for now I use Oxalic, I have even went as far as to manufacture a OAV machine which I believe is better than what can be bought in the marketed level for beginners, the one which can be purchased in the 400 to 500 dollar range. I am excluding what pros such as HP use (the pipe type). However pride will not save bees. An effective treatment will. A treatment that WILL effectively kill mites in capped brood as well as uncapped, which is safe to the HEALTHY bees is what is desired by me.

Therefore I say again, I fully intend to go down the formic road in the near future, namely this fall. A mistake? Maybe. A huge mistake? Possibly. We will see. Will I change my mind? I reserve the privilege.

PS you may hear me crying loud and long afterward. Again, we will see. 😁

Blessings

Ben Framed · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2020, 09:55:59 pm »

Let me add. It is wise in my opinion to do what the pros do. I am thinking of HoneyPump namely when I say this. The pros know and have done the hard homework of research, trial and error, and unlike me, cannot afford to make big mistakes. There examples and experience can not be denied in my opinion. I simply just want to try what the pros in Germany do. Again, we will see. Trial and maybe ERROR. 😊

JojoBeeBoy · « **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2020, 11:02:55 pm »

This is my first year with a real treatment plan. Running 2 apivar strips per hive (most are currently deep over medium, flipped in the next few days. I overfed everything to get some comb built and I'm trying to get old queens moved over into nucs (lot of swarm cells). Probably lost a few queens but every single cell in most hives will have emerged in the next 3-4 days.

I have nucs packed with brood, but the mites in the bigger boxes will have the next week or so to get themselves a good dose of Apivar. I plan to have a strip in every nuc as well. The only exception is one hive of Russian's that is exploding. There are no strips in it and I plan to extract a little sourwood for family and friends.

I may do an OAV while they are this clean, but I think it's probably overkill right now. So, I'm a hobbyist amateur who knows squat, but you asked.

cao · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2020, 12:20:58 am »

Van, it may not help you out any but I don't treat for mites. Haven't since I started keeping bees. I started with 3 nucs and caught a swarm about 7 years ago. Now I have over 80 hives. I guess you could say that my treatment is expansion. Last year was a bad year for winter losses. Lost near 20 of 80+ hives. Still better than the average losses. Previously my winter losses have been around 10%. I don't look for mites so I don't know whether I have them or not. It might not help you out but I thought that I would give my opinion.

TheHoneyPump · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2020, 11:13:45 am »

Formic vapor penetrates the wax/coccoon caps and kills the mites under the caps. This results in bees pulling mite compromised brood shortly after applying. Formic is an excellent go-to when mite loads are super high, out of control. Though it is harsh and using it you may lose Alpha.
OAV on a 4 day regimen for 22 days (28 days if drone brood present), will practically eliminate the entire mite population in the apiary.
ApiVar is also extremely effective, and passive on the part of the beekeeper -set and forget.

In the situation described, what I would do is; hit them with OAV for 2 sets (4d+4d) then sample, alchohol wash. If load is found high and concerning on wash day, then time one more OAV shot and lastly drop in ApiVar strips to mop up.

IMHO

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2020, 11:33:58 am »

Oh wow, thanks for all the quick response, everyone.

Up date: scratch the capped brood removal idea. The first 10 frame deep I inspected had 7 frames of capped brood. Well, not a very good idea to remove 70 percent of the frames.

So back to plan that worked in the past: multiple OAV treatments as suggested in this thread. I have a provap 110.

Cheers

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2020, 12:27:44 pm »

I'll second HP with two treatments 4 days apart but would think about coming for a third treatment at six days. Back when I did the mite drop count graph I noticed a large increase in the count when I changed the treatment frequency. It might of been a fluke but it has always made me wonder what caused it. Just my thoughts on it for what it's worth.

Van,thanks for bringing up flash formic acid treatment for mites. I did a little research and it looks like a great way to knock down mites in a hive. There are a lot of variables involved but properly applied it may be the answer.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2020, 12:34:37 pm »

Quote from: van from Arkansas on July 10, 2020, 11:33:58 am

Oh wow, thanks for all the quick response, everyone.

Up date: scratch the capped brood removal idea. The first 10 frame deep I inspected had 7 frames of capped brood. Well, not a very good idea to remove 70 percent of the frames.

So back to plan that worked in the past: multiple OAV treatments as suggested in this thread. I have a provap 110.

Cheers

Mr Honey Pumps answer is reassuring in every way. Thanks for the topic Mr Van. Good stuff here.

Beeboy01, your experiment was a real eye opener for me. Had we known about the formic flash at that time, and you went that route, I would not have learned what I did from you then. All good stuff.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2020, 11:20:35 pm »

Quote from: Beeboy01 on July 10, 2020, 12:27:44 pm

I'll second HP with two treatments 4 days apart but would think about coming for a third treatment at six days. Back when I did the mite drop count graph I noticed a large increase in the count when I changed the treatment frequency. It might of been a fluke but it has always made me wonder what caused it. Just my thoughts on it for what it's worth.

Van,thanks for bringing up flash formic acid treatment for mites. I did a little research and it looks like a great way to knock down mites in a hive. There are a lot of variables involved but properly applied it may be the answer.

From his past post, I do not think Mr Van is a proponent of fromic, nor does he advocate the theory of formic in any fashion unless his views have changed? If you decide to do the fromic flash, you MUST do your homework. Remember, I have not tried it yet myself. I am not recommending it. I just thought some of you might like to see there are options, organic options that are being proved in other parts of the world and slowly catching on in other places. Thus answering Mr Vans Post question.

Now, this fall if all goes well, with all calculations done properly and no mites and plenty of queens afterward, then I may recommend it. 😊 As I stated in another topic. (Mites on Queens?). I am not so sure queens are lost unless they may already be weak and or sick in the first place from mites or the effects of viruses carried by mites; (as there are more than one). If viruses are not enough, I will again mention the effects of mites sucking the fat bodies from the host bees. Queens are not excluded. (BUMMER). If this is the case, if she is already effected, do we really need that really weak queen anyway?

Just food for thought, how many times have each of you, who have had a mite infested hive, can honestly say the queen of that hive was a barn burner layer to the very end? (She may have been sick!) If so she needs to go anyway. In my opinion.

Phillip

.

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2020, 09:51:12 am »

Good morning Mr. Ben. I have no problem with Formic, a fantastic organic acid that kills mites in the capped brood cell. I just personally prefer Oxalic even though Oxalic does not kill mites in capped brood. Just a personal preference I have, a bias. Either acid works well.

I have been injected with Formic acid so many times by fire ants, I have a personal dislike of Formic but I do not mind one bit if a beek chooses to use Formic, Formic works fine, just make sure to use under 90F.

Ben Framed · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2020, 09:58:19 am »

Quote from: van from Arkansas on July 11, 2020, 09:51:12 am

Good morning Mr. Ben. I have no problem with Formic, a fantastic organic acid that kills mites in the capped brood cell. I just personally prefer Oxalic even though Oxalic does not kill mites in capped brood. Just a personal preference I have, a bias. Either acid works well.

I have been injected with Formic acid so many times by fire ants, I have a personal dislike of Formic but I do not mind one bit if a beek chooses to use Formic, Formic works fine, just make sure to use under 90F.

Thank you Mr Van. I know exactly what you mean about the fire ants! We have those also. lol Goodness! Actually formic (flash) is not to be used over 80, In my opinion from what I have found 80 may be pushing it. How are things going with you grafting? I always enjoy hearing your updates as I am sure others here do also. Exciting for sure! Blessings to you Mr. Van

van from Arkansas · « **Reply #14 on:** July 11, 2020, 10:07:31 am »

I have about 20 grafted larva as of yesterday, Friday, in 4 different hives. Only 5 grafts per hive as we are in a dearth so food is scarce.

I would like to know how long Oxalic acid is effective at killing mites in a hive? HP stated 4 day intervals, this is what I?ll go with? This is all I have to go on. I have never read a study regarding longevity of Oxalic acid. Would like to know about Formic acid also: how many days remains effective in a hive? Anybody know how long either of these acids kill mites in a hive?

Ben Framed · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2020, 10:58:53 am »

Quote from: van from Arkansas on July 11, 2020, 10:07:31 am

I have about 20 grafted larva as of yesterday, Friday, in 4 different hives. Only 5 grafts per hive as we are in a dearth so food is scarce.

I would like to know how long Oxalic acid is effective at killing mites in a hive? HP stated 4 day intervals, this is what I?ll go with? This is all I have to go on. I have never read a study regarding longevity of Oxalic acid. Would like to know about Formic acid also: how many days remains effective in a hive? Anybody know how long either of these acids kill mites in a hive?

Mr Van, the formic flash is an one day treatment. Supposedly killing the mites external of the brood as well as internal which are already capped in the brood. I have talked to many people from many places, taken notes but I confess, I an by not wise an expert, nor do I claim to be. I am simply noting what the experts say. The University of West Virginia here in America is a good place to start. Now again I am referring to the formic flash method. There are other ways of using formic, even the commercially available strips that our one 15thMember has successfully used. However strict directions must be followed.

Some calim that once a year is all that is needed with the formic flash. Germany is the place that seems to be really up on the flash treatment method. It will will take some research for a person to understand the formic flash in my opinion. I am hopeful, in my case, the rewards will be worth the effort of time spent in research.

Blessings

Beeboy01 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2020, 11:22:26 am »

Van, When I did the mite drop count study my final "most effective days between treatment interval" was determined when the count decreased to 50% of the first day count. It was a rough lethal dose 50 and indicated to me that the effects of the OAV had diminished past a decent kill rate. It's not very scientific and there were variables not taken into my study. Every four days would be sufficient in my opinion.
As to how long the oxalic acid micro crystals last in a hive post treatment I've read anywhere from less than a day up to a full week. Since as bee keepers we are mainly interested in the mite lethal dose level of the micro crystals in the hive I will fall back on to my mite drop study as sketchy as it is.
I haven't seen any larger study or research that parallels what I did. A larger study would in my opinion be of great service to the bee keeping world. I'm not trying to blow my own horn, just trying to add to the information out there so it can be built on by others in our war against Varroa. As a hobbyist bee keeper I feel like I'm a student trying to teach a master by give you advice. LOL

beesonhay465 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2020, 12:53:54 pm »

one year beekeeper i use the blue shop towel saturated with oxalic acid dissolved in glycerin . the treatment is supposed to last about a month. as the towel is chewed up and removed. i treated 3 times in the fall about 30 days apart.

LawyerRick · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2020, 02:30:22 pm »

Been keeping bees over 10 years & use OA, glycerin & water in thin cellulose sponges. Lasts over a month & the slow release of OA does the job. Lowers my levels down to 1or 2 per 300 bees. Cheap, easy to use & doesn't depend on temperature. Used formic pro 2 years ago & lost 3 queens.

rober · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2020, 12:29:14 am »

I used to install drop boards to test & treat hives with high counts & not treat those with low counts. when dead-outs from low count hives were sent to usda lab they had high mite counts. so mite counts can change quickly. so now I don't test & treat all hives in august with apiguard. & use O.A. in mid November & mid march when there's not much brood. seems to be working as i've seen 10% losses for the last 3 winters. the one year I used MAQS I lost half my queens. MAQS say the formula has been changed to correct that but once burned...