Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: omnimirage on November 17, 2017, 01:22:09 am
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I've been using the crush and strain method, and I'm finding that the bees make honey faster than I can strain it. It's time to acquire an extractor!
I'm not sure if it'd be best for me to go to the hives and switch out honeyframes with empty frames, then spin at home. If I did it this way, how should I then store all of those sticky honey frames? The other option would be to take the extractor out with me and spin in my apiary site. Doing it this way would mean I'd end up camping. If I did that, could I tie an extractor to the roof rack of my car, or would I need to take a trailer with me or maybe even buy myself a ute/van?
If I took one out with me, would I need a mechanical one, or might it be feasible to run an electric one still without access to a power grid? Would using a hand one take too much time for someone who has 40-100 hives?
Does the frame amount that it can spin matter much? I'm not sure if some numbers are more effective than others.
How successful have people been who've built their own extractor? Are the professionally made ones much more effective? I have a friend who said he'd help me build one, he has an engine to motorise it and it seems simple enough to do though it's a bit beyond my skills. I see that one can get stainless steel mesh to build into baskets to hold the frames. One can then attach the baskets to a rod that sits on something that can rotate... a ballbearing? Then attach that to the sides of a stainless steel drum and install a honeygate underneath, attach it to the engine. Does all the metal, the rod, and nuts, have to be stainless steel for it to be food grade? What kind of things could I use for the drum? Would an oil barrel work?
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Sounds to me that you are going to have to find out what works best for you. This year I took honey off about 15-20 of my hives. I have a three frame manual extractor that I got cheap at an auction a couple of years ago. When I remove the honey frames from a hive, I will add empty frames if needed or if I just pull a few frames from a box. If I remove a full box, I don't add any. After extraction, I will put the stickies back on which ever hive needs them. Usually I can get it done within a few days.
I extract my honey in my house. I could never extract out by my hives because it would cause a major feeding frenzy and set off robbing.
If you have a friend that can build an extractor for you, I would say go for it. I believe that there is a food grade paint or sealer that you can use for anything that is not stainless.
Hope this helps some.
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Use a plastic barrel not steel.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Bm61HD1B08UfwsS63
I would not do it in the apiary. Where are you going to get water and how will you keep the bees out of the honey?
The decision to use dry frame replacement or wet frame replacement is how long will it be before you can replace the wet frames?
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With 40-100 hives you will have one heck of sore arm. :shocked:
If you belong to a club, try to borrow different size extractors as a test. I have known several beeks that built their own but they ended up buying a store bought or used extractor after 2-3 years as their home made one just got to hard to use. -Mike
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With 40 hives, I recommend you buy at least a 18 or 20 frame motorized extractor or buy one that you can add one to.
As mentioned, do not try to extract in your apiary. You may get away with it during a flow but it will cause serious problems with out one.
I recommend you remove as many Supers as you can, extract them, return to your apiary and put them back on. If the flow is still on they will fill them back up. Then remove the remaining Supers.
Jim
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If you plan on installing a motor. Make sure it is a variable speed motor.
You also want a radial extractor.
Jim
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18-20 frames sure is a lot, to buy something like that I'm looking at a 4 figure investment; quite a lot of money ugh.
What's a radial extractor?
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You could always build this.
http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/20-frame-honey-extractor/
I wanted to build this but ended up building one with a trash can that does 4 mediums. With the price of the cheap chineese ones they sell on ebay, if you don't just have the stuff free laying around and not being used but more have to buy you parts, you probly can not do it cheaper then the chineese ones. I had the stuff laying around and so did what I did. If I wouldn't have had to spend so much on plywood and all thread, I would have liked to build the 20 frame I linked to. I do say that it would be harder to move around and might need a more dedicated space then a bought one would.
Just threw it out there. I did watch a whole bunch of you tube on homemade extractors before tackling mine. Mine is definatly cobbed together but I have used it twice and it works just fine.
Good luck
gww
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Mine is definatly cobbed together but I have used it twice and it works just fine.
One should not be fixated on what something looks like but how it give you pleasure.
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Ace
One should not be fixated on what something looks like but how it give you pleasure.
That was an uplifting comment.
Thank you
gww
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Well 100 is more the max I can see myself ever having. I currently have 25 hives. I've done some research and I'm rather blown away by how expensive they are to buy. Holding less than 8 frames seems like not enough. Heck, I'm not sure but even 8 frames seems like a low number, at least 9 frames can do a single super in one go. 8-9 frame spinner will cost me about $1300-1500, if I want to do more 12-20 frames then I need to add a good another $1000 on top. Being a frugal person I'm really reluctant to spend $2000-3000 here, that's a very large proportion of my savings, but I do wonder if the 8-9 frame spinners will be good for me in the longrun.
I don't really know what to look for in a spinner. One concern that I have, is some of my supers have deep honey frames, and some have medium honeyframes. Will I be able to get a spinner that can spin both deeps and mediums?
I've done some internet searching and looked at every extractor available to purchase that's within country. I did some brief searching for overseas products, but they were pretty pricey and I figure the freight would be enormous.
Here are the midrange electric spinners:
http://beekeeping.iwoohoo.com.au/electric-honey-extractors-for-bee-hives/9-frame-electric-honey-extractor-premium-grade/
I'm not sure what radial is, but I don't believe this is a radial extractor; does that matter much? It also doesn't seem to have reserve spinning abilities. This 8 frame one is from the same company:
http://beekeeping.iwoohoo.com.au/electric-honey-extractors-for-bee-hives/8-frame-electric-extractor/
It's a little more costly but does reverse spin and is radial; it looks like it spins a lot faster as well. Will it being 8 frame be an inconvenience compared to 9?
This one is radial doesn't specify if it reverses:
https://www.mydeal.com.au/premium-9-frame-radial-electric-honey-extractor
And then there's this one, I'm aversive to buying it though because the company screwed me around with a beesuit that I bought from them:
https://www.beekeepinggear.com.au/product-page/electric-honey-extractor-eight-frames
I did look at that 20 frame blueprint. I'm mostly just stuck on where I'd find the drum. Acebird says to use a plastic foodgrade drum; where can I acquire one of these? I'm not sure if a 8-9 frame spinner will be enough, sawdstmakr suggested to get a 18-20 frame spinner, but they're thousands so I do wonder if I can just build one instead.
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I currently have 25 hives.
You are only just beginning ... Two four frame extractors will beat the pants off one nine frame because you load one while the other is spinning. However the bottle neck is dealing with the cappings. The extractor is just one piece of the puzzle.
The first thing I would do is convert the deeps to mediums for honey supers now before you get to 100. Varying equipment will just make things more complicated down the road. Or you could use the deeps for brood chambers in the future as you expand.
My extractor would be a PITA to run deeps because the opening is smaller then the dia of the drum. Cutting the access hole to the size of the drum would weaken the drum walls as it is cut from the bottom to save the threaded fittings in the top and to give the extractor a solid base for feet.
The bent up wire baskets look simple but I would want to see them in person. Life doesn't always go smoothly and if a frame should come apart while spinning I want to know if the basket is stronger than the frame. Once distorted even slightly you will have balance issues.
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couldn't I just decap the frames.over a bucket? Can they spin both mediums and deeps? do I need to get an extractor to do one or the other? I am aiming to transition the deep box's I have into brood chambers.
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On the twenty frame home made plan, I think you are missing what the plan is saying as to what the drum is. The wood box is what holds the honey till you drain it. The drum is just wire to hold your frames in place while spinning.
Have you lookeds at any home made or bought extractors by watching you tube. It might give you an ideal of the features you seem to be confused on. Then again, it might just confuse you.
Good luck
gww
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Can they spin both mediums and deeps?
Most extractors can spin both some have a different basket arrangement to go from one to the other. When you go from a hobby business to a more serious business you will be competing with others that are already doing it. Now your time is valuable and even more so if you have to hire someone to get it done. 100 hives is probably comfortable for one person to handle but do you want to work for .50/hr? You are talking about a 4:1 increase. It might not result is 4 times the output but it will be at least a 4 times increase in work if not more.
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So the honey directly touches the plywood? Isn't that bad for the honey?
I haven't looked at such and I might need to do so.
Yeah 100 hives was thinking way too far in the future. I just want to buy so that I'm set and don't have to buy again and 100 hives is the max I can see myself ever having. I feel 50 is a more realistic number of how many hives I'll expand into.
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So the honey directly touches the plywood? Isn't that bad for the honey?
I wouldn't know why, your meat touches a cutting board. It is in the plan to coat it with a food grade paint which the last I looked at is about any paint once it is cured as long as it is not chipping. I would think after the first time it would have a wax residue on it anyway. I know I looked up commecial food rules and wax was suggested in processing of food for metal parts. One good thing about honey is that it has peroxide in it and naturally puts down bad bactiria.
Wood would not bother me as bad as aluminum or steal due to the acid in honey.
I am no expert but did look up lots of stuff when building mine just trying to be good enough to not do something too bad.
Cheers
gww
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My father in law has a very old 2 frame extractor that he still uses. It is made of galvanized steel but a lot of the zinc is gone and there is rust in the drum. It is a very thin layer, no peeling. He thinks it is ok.
Jim
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So the honey directly touches the plywood? Isn't that bad for the honey?
The honey already dribbled off the wooden frames so it is use to the plywood. Do you know anyone that sterilizes their frames before they put them back in the hive?
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I can crush as strain faster than I can extract... but there is nothing wrong with extracting.
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I can crush as strain faster than I can extract...
That is because you have to strain the cappings anyway even if you extract, unless you have more equipment. I think or I would think that most people extract to save the comb not because it is faster.
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Ace
I like the crush and strain better but you are correct, in my case, I extract to try and save comb. I still ruin a lot cause I am foundationless and have not got the process down to a sience yet. Alot come through ok though also. The combs do let me fill empty space on small hives that don't quite get full boxes drawn out.
I find that extracting is a lot harder on the clean up also. The bees clean the extractor pretty well (hope I never get foul brood in one of my hives though). You have an uncapping station and then drip some loading the extractor and like you say still have to crush and strain the cappings. That all make crushing just in a 5 gal bucket look pretty good.
Cheers
gww
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I have done both extracting and crush and strain. I definitely like extracting better. With crush and strain, if there is any pollen in the frame that is not removed, it will make the honey cloudy. The if you extract that same frame, the pollen remains in the frame.
Jim
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Ace
I still ruin a lot cause I am foundationless and have not got the process down to a sience yet.
Try putting in smaller frames. If the box is a deep put in mediums. If the box is medium put in shallows. Now every frame that you successfully extract without breaking the comb can be filled in at the bottom bar with comb that they draw underneath it. This will give you a solid comb because they will attach what you did and also draw new comb underneath that bottom bar. Essentially you are going to have frames with the bottom bar elevated and the comb above the bottom bar all attached.
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Ace
That would probly work as would on the ones they don't attche the bottom, sticking a little bur comb in it so they do attach it. I just put a few rubberbands around them and extract and get what I get. I did a little worse the second extraction cause it was a little cooler and I tried to spin a little faster just to see. If I go a little slower and a little longer, I probly would be fine. I am using all mediums and if I cared enough, I would scrape the bottom of the comb or stick a little piece in and get the bees to attach it for me. I did find that my second extraction with the comb I had extracted once already had more flaw and I think this is partly due to it being past prime comb drawing season. The bees filled the wet comb really fast and capped it but did not draw them fatter. I think the same kind of comb in spring would be made fatter and the bees would have worked a little harder at fixing little flaws from my first extraction. I am just guessing on this because I have not had bees long enough to know for sure but it is what I am thinking.
Cheers
gww
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If you gave them more comb then they could fill because the flow tapered off they will not waste honey to make wax and draw it out.
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Ace
Good point. I will get there. Lots of small hives right now but sooner or later a few will die and I will have some extra comb.
Cheers
gww
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I have a 55 gal food grade plastic drum that I use for the outer shell of my extractor. I use medium and shallow honey supers, either will fit is frame slots, at the moment, little after 1 am, can't remember if it holds 8 or 9 frames, as for the variable speed, I got a tread mill motor. I have got appr. $500 to $600 in it. Works rather well. As for putting a smaller frame in a hive, mine will always build the comb on down below the frame. You do not want to extract in the bee yard. Mine is fairly close so I will pull the frames and then extract after dark to help keep the bees out of where I extract. Then I drain the honey out of the extractor into food grade 5 gal buckets and put a lid on each bucket. Will let it set for a couple of days, the capping will all float to top, skim them off, run the honey through a sieve to catch what got by and have the sieve over a 5 gal paint strainer. After that you have clean honey ready to bottle. On the extracting foundationless frames, the first time you extract them do it slow unless they have the comb attached good, by the next time those frames are extracted they will do better. Hope this helps some new bks.
Good extracting,
Joe D
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hiya omnimirage.
(declaration of conflict .. I sell extractors in these size ranges myself having gone through a similar process and not finding what I wanted available)
Perusing the extractors you linked:
- the ones labelled 'premium' I don't get, particularly what part is 'premium'. It is a radial but essentially relies on the frames to support each other rather than having frame baskets.
- the 8 frame 'one' from beekeepinggear is also curious as it's not 'one'. The first three photos are obviously of three different extractor models?
I used until recently an 8 frame radial extractor like this
https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/8-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor.html
It is a fairly good size for my purposes as a one-person operation or sometimes with my daughter and only half a dozen hives (and absolutely hating extraction/painting/any-other-messy-job that runs too long and can't be finished in one episode)
The process of
- clearing one super at a time from hive in my backyard, clearing with a battery powered blower
- uncapping and holding uncapped frames in a plastic tub
- extracting
- draining from the extractor into 20kg buckets
- and returning the super to the hives to then grab the next one
operates fairly smoothly with no significant bottlenecks or choke points in the process.
with 40+ hives I'd be seriously tempted to look at a 12 frame unit like this https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/12-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor-1.html to move everything along a bit faster as well as being a bit more robust, solid and hands-free in operation.
(in recently switched to an 8 frame unit that is a smaller prototype/engineering-sample of that 12 frame unit scaled down to 8 frame size cos someone had to take one for the team and test it out)
Some things to pay attention to:
- you need to pay attention to and balance all of the bits in the extraction process including yourself. There is no use for instance having a huge extractor you can't keep operating because you can't uncap fast enough
- if you use or might use smaller frame sizes like wsp, manley or ideal pay attention to the frame supports/baskets to see if they will actually support such frames properly. Most of the cheaper ones (including it appears.. the ones you linked) will hold full depth but the other sizes are poorly supported and/or are unstable
- pay attention to just how solidly they are built and ask around about weak points
- think about what happens if a frame breaks or tips over (see the bit about frame supports above); in a solidly built extractor this will destroy the frame; in a crappy extractor you could end up destroying the extractor although radials are so simple there aren't 'too' many things to break.
- do you need to extract difficult honeys like tea tree or that has started to crystallize in the comb or have a penchant for super soft foundationless comb? If so radials may not be the best option as they have to apply more centrifugal force on the frame to throw the honey than tangential or semi-radial extractors (which in turn are laborious or way more expensive of course )
- I'm not sure what the rules are in Qld but in most Australian states you are not allowed to have honey in the extraction process in contact with materials like galvanised iron so pay attention to such stuff if you make your own; the days of putting an old 44 gallon drum into service as an extractor are over
- only you can determine the relative value and availability of your own time and effort vs capital outlay so what makes sense for you has to make sense to no-one but you.
eg Beekeeping is a hobby for me and I don't enjoy extracting and cleaning up after extracting so 'wasting' money buying equipment to reduce the time/effort/mess/inconvenience makes sense from the perspective of maximizing the bits I like about my hobby and minimizing the bits I don't. For some/many people (including myself at other times in my life/hobby/hobbies/bank-balance) that would not be true and they will happily crush and strain a few thousand kg of comb and honey each year and it'll make perfect sense to the only person it really needs to make sense to.
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Just a couple considerations to add to the mix:
1) if you are working alone and uncapping manually, a Maxant 9-frame extractor is going to spin the honey about as fast as you can uncap it. Pro: you change up what you do every ten minutes or so. Con: after the first load you will need to have a plastic tub to put frames as you uncap them until you can reload.
2) If you have someone to help you, they can manually crank an extractor at about the same pace as you uncap and vice-versa.
3) Just my personal preference, I like to be able to function off the grid when I have to (born of living in a hurricane prone area with power lines above ground). I bought a manual extractor to start out with and with the intent of it being a fallback when I grew out of it.
4) Manual extractors are more work but it is really not all that bad. Truth be told, it has more to do with the fact that we Americans do less and less because or mechanization and things being cheap and it is not so great for our health.
5) you can get a Maxant manual extractor and then later buy the motor for it. You will pay more than if you just bought it with a motor, but you will still have the manual kit to fall back on if you need it.
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" - if you use or might use smaller frame sizes like wsp, manley or ideal pay attention to the frame supports/baskets to see if they will actually support such frames properly. Most of the cheaper ones (including it appears.. the ones you linked) will hold full depth but the other sizes are poorly supported and/or are unstable"
I have a Mann Lake 9/18 frame motorized extractor that I would never switch with one of those frame support units.
The frames sit in slots at the bottom and top edge and it works beautifully. I have blown out 2 frames out of maybe 1000 frames spun, one foundation less and one plasticel that had a crack in it from the factory. The minute it happens you know it, the drum slows way down, and I turn it off, find the failed frame, remove it, rebalance it and turn it back on. Not a big deal and the extractor hold twice as many medium frames as the ones with the frame supports.
Jim
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Ok, since this thread is continuing to get attention, I'll in include my question. I like the idea of the motor under the drum instead of up top. My thoughts relate to cleaning, access, and lower center of gravity. I only have experience with a 2 frame hand crank, so I'm looking for experienced input.
While I'm asking, is the high pitched whine of the DC motors worth the cost savings? I think that would drive me out of the extracting room.
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Straight DC motors don't whine. I think you are referring to a stepper motor drive that would be a poor motor to use for an extractor. A variable speed AC motor might grunt at low speeds but it is not considered whine.
If the motor is mounted below the tub you have to deal with a sealed bearing coming up through the vessel. This is done on a regular basis with a washing machine. However it would tend to raise the center of gravity to make room for the motor. But then most extractors are put on legs to make a convenient loading height so it is a moot point.
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Tex,
I have a variable AC motor and there is no whine.
Having the motor on top is not a problem for operating it. Actually I think it helps control/stabilize it. It is top heavy when it comes to transporting it and must bee tied down.
Jim
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I've been looking at the Lyson units. Check out a video and listen to the sound while it is running. Here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyqI7fw4qvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyqI7fw4qvQ) I've heard similar on other units, but not the MannLake 18/9. I'd prefer a 3 phase VFD, but those seem to be on much larger units. I can't find a definition of the "Gamma" drive that Lega uses on their unit, but it is quiet -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeSibHfRIfo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeSibHfRIfo).
Most likely I'm over-analyzing the whole thing because I have the time.
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Tex,
It sounds to me like the noise is from the drum, not the motor. The noise starts the second it starts up. My Mann Lake extractor sounds like the Lega model. My wife cannot stand the noise from the first unit. She would never be able to be in the house, let alone standing over the extractor.
Jim
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It does sound like a stepper drive. I wouldn't care for that either.
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I have a 55 gal food grade plastic drum that I use for the outer shell of my extractor......
Does help. Where did you buy the plastic drum? What did you have to buy to build it? How long did it take to build, was it difficult?
Perusing the extractors you linked:
- the ones labelled 'premium' I don't get, particularly what part is 'premium'. It is a radial but essentially relies on the frames to support each other rather than having frame baskets.
- the 8 frame 'one' from beekeepinggear is also curious as it's not 'one'. The first three photos are obviously of three different extractor models?
I used until recently an 8 frame radial extractor like this
https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/8-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor.html
The process of
- clearing one super at a time from hive in my backyard, clearing with a battery powered blower
- uncapping and holding uncapped frames in a plastic tub
- extracting
- draining from the extractor into 20kg buckets
- and returning the super to the hives to then grab the next one
operates fairly smoothly with no significant bottlenecks or choke points in the process.
with 40+ hives I'd be seriously tempted to look at a 12 frame unit like this https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/12-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor-1.html to move everything along a bit faster as well as being a bit more robust, solid and hands-free in operation.
Some things to pay attention to:
- you need to pay attention to and balance all of the bits in the extraction process including yourself. There is no use for instance having a huge extractor you can't keep operating because you can't uncap fast enough
- if you use or might use smaller frame sizes like wsp, manley or ideal pay attention to the frame supports/baskets to see if they will actually support such frames properly. Most of the cheaper ones (including it appears.. the ones you linked) will hold full depth but the other sizes are poorly supported and/or are unstable
- pay attention to just how solidly they are built and ask around about weak points
- do you need to extract difficult honeys like tea tree or that has started to crystallize in the comb or have a penchant for super soft foundationless comb? If so radials may not be the best option as they have to apply more centrifugal force on the frame to throw the honey than tangential or semi-radial extractors (which in turn are laborious or way more expensive of course )
Could you please elaborate on the need for frames to support themselves vs. having baskets? It's not obvious to me that they're from different extractors they look the same but I guess I'm a bit unsure.
Do you use 8-frame beehives? My hives largely have 9 frames, if I went and grabbed a super I'd have a spare frame after a spin which is a bit awkward, isn't it?
If I'm going to primarily spin by myself, would I be able to keep up with the extra frames that the 12 extractor could do? Not sure if the extra frames will create a bottleneck with the speed in which I'm able to cap and process everything. How can I tell if the baskets will properly support manley frames? Most of my honey frames are manley sized so this is important to me.
Where should I ask for weak points about an extractor?
My honey is very thick and crystalises fast... I didn't realise there were other types of spinners better adjusted for this. Sometimes it does crystallise in the comb, I figure if this happens then I'd just do a crush and strain with such (or avoid those frames).
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How can I tell if the baskets will properly support manley frames?
I am not sure what a manley frame is but supporting a frame is far from the strength that an extractor should have. You want an extractor that can pulverize a frame should it come unglued or fall apart. The actual supporting of the frame is nothing. If a frame gets thrown you do not want the frame supports or basket to get distorted because that means unbalance from then on.
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Okay, I didn't realise they could be so flimsy. A number of my frames are a bit dodgy. How can I tell whether an extractor can support a frame falling apart mid spin?
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Omni,
When a frame fails, usually it is the comb that fails. The comb drags against the wall and slows the drum way down. As long as you shut the extractor down to keep from burning up the motor, it will be okay. My drum dropped a few years ago and was dragging in the honey. It took several test to figure out what was slowing down the motor. Once I put the drum back where it was supposed to be it was fine. This is basically the same thing that happens when a comb blows out. My extractor is still in good working order.
When my wife and I extract, we pull about 10 or more Supers at a time so it does not matter how many frames the extractor can handle. You just have to have a balanced load. We have done as few as 2 or 3 frames at the end of an extraction.
Jim
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An extractor should not exert a lot of force on a frame. The delicate part of the frame is the wax. To be honest if a frame comes apart in an extractor it shouldn't have been put in it the first place. By controlling the speed you control the force that the frame / comb is exposed to. Some people like to rush things. They usually end up taking the most time to get things done.
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I need to put in my 2 cents. At first I didnt know any better. Then I saw the amount of work and labor saving tools out there.
With that said this is what I use: MAxxant 9 frame motorized, LEGA uncapper...
cheers
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I am not sure what a manley frame
Our manley frame size is the same as your medium.
They're not all that commonly used here. The most common (I presume everywhere) is fulldepth. A size we call wsp, approximately 3/4 height; and ideal, 1/2 height get use a bit; with manley/medium a very distant fourth place.
@omnimirage regarding frame supports this image is one I grabbed from one the pages you linked with some annotations added.
The red lines mark where there are two supporting rods that hold the frame up.
The blue line is where an ideal medium frame would reach to.
The green line is where a manley frame would reach to
The purple line is where a wsp frame would reach to.
https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/temp/typical-frame-support-bars.png
If you experiment with some pencils under your own frames in similar positions you will find the full-depth and wsp frames work ok but ideal and manley frames will tip forward as they are supported by a single bar about 1/3'rd of the way along.
That is ok if the extractor is spinning at sufficient speed but not when it is stationary, starting or slowing down.
The 12 frame or larger extractors I've had a look at (here in oz) all appear to handle smaller frames as do the small tangential units and the locally made/horridly-expensive units; the ones you have to pay attention to are the 6 and 8 frame radials going around.
That's all about getting the frames to hold in pace while you're filling and starting it. Once it's up and running centrifugal support will hold them in place but.. eventually you will have a frame break in the extractor.
When it does your concern is not about supporting bars etc as frankly, you want the frame to be completely and quickly destroyed while you are you're hoping that the extractor is strong enough to survive the process without getting bits bent and distorted.
re" if I went and grabbed a super I'd have a spare frame after a spin"
I use 8, 9 and 10 frame boxes (and a mixture of full depth and medium/manley.. cos I can't help myself experimenting and I haven't really settled on what suits me). When I'm extracting I tend to have 2 or 3 boxes being processed not just one so I am extracting 8 frames at a time; not necessarily from the same super.
At the end of the process you will have a partially filled extractor to operate; and along the way you will have differently weighted frames. That's just a matter of paying attention to their relative weights as you place them around the drum although in a mathematical sense there are more options available to partially fill a 12 frame extractor as it is balanced with 12, 6, 4, 3 or 2 frames versus 9, 8 or 6 frame that have only 2 or 3 fill options available each.
re: "It's not obvious to me that they're from different extractors they look the same"
On the beekeeping supplies site the first picture has the motor mounted directly on the shaft
whereas the second picture has a a motor mounted at right angles to the shaft, driving through a gearing mechanism.
You ideal option is to hope you're buying the second one for the price of the first one :-)
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/55e9f1_bc5af77486a44be2887c322253d38805~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_900,h_900,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/55e9f1_bc5af77486a44be2887c322253d38805~mv2.jpg
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/55e9f1_6a642415c0aa4f6c9c4174479d6b00de~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_759,h_759,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/55e9f1_6a642415c0aa4f6c9c4174479d6b00de~mv2.jpg
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you want the frame to be completely and quickly destroyed while you are you're hoping that the extractor is strong enough to survive the process without getting bits bent and distorted.
Without a supporting wire on the end of each frame support tying them all together each frame support is on it's own and only as strong as the wires welded to the drive shaft. For the cost of two wires tying all these frames supports together top and bottom the strength would be greatly improved. As it is I see this arrangement as being weak.
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Thanks for the fantastic information guys chorrylan in particular.
So what I've gathered, the spinner is but one part of the extraction process, and as the drum is spinning I'll be preparing the next lot of frames by doing things such as uncapping. It seems that one person wouldn't practically be able to uncap and prepare twenty frames by the time they've finished spinning, and so it becomes a two person job. I wonder, is this the same with a 12 frame spinner? Can one person effectively mount it, or is that also more of a 2 person job? I assume the 8 frame spinner is fine as a 1 person job.
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I assume the 8 frame spinner is fine as a 1 person job.
I use an 8 frame version of this unit https://www.ozbeegear.com.au/12-frame-electric-radial-honey-extractor-1.html
as a one (sometimes two) person exercise (I could easily get by with something smaller but don't want/need to)
You mentioned 40-100 hives in your op; how many do you have now and how many supers would you expect to handle in a single 'sitting'?
I don't time my cycles so the numbers are vague but.. if you spend say 10 minutes in a cycle and 2 minutes unloading and re-loading you're going to manage about 40 cycles in a long/busy day.
That's 32x10-frame supers with an 8 frame extractor or 48 supers with a 12-frame extractor.
At about that point an uncapper would be looking like a really tempting investment or ... befriend someone with serious equipment who is willing to come to some arrangement with you.
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Not sure why I'm not being notified of a reply.
Currently, I have 25 hives. Honestly thinking about it 100 hives is a lot and I think that's the max I'll ever have in my lifetime and feel doubtful such will occur. Most I have on one site is 9 hives currently but that will increase with time. Not sure how many this one owner would be comfortable with
Can't I just use a hotknife or one of those heated steam knives for uncapping?
That sure sounds like it'll take a long time to process, I didn't realise it was so slow. So you're telling me that if I had a manual one I'd have to handspin it for 10 minutes per cycle? Sounds like I'd have a dead arm rather quickly.
I've been thinking more so about the logistics of honeyspinning. If I were to take empty frames up with me, to replace with full honey frames to take home and extract, I wouldn't be able to fit such in my station wagon. Taking back just 10 supers full of honey would be very difficult to manage. My car has been getting very full as is. I could strap my tool box and other tools on roof racks to my car, if I got tarps I could load some honey supers on my passenger seats. but it doesn't seem practical. I'd have to take a trailer with me to load with honey. I don't own a trailer nor do I have experience with driving one, but that can change I suppose. Maybe I'd need to get a more spacious vehicle, my station wagon has a gas tank in the back which restricts how many supers I can load up. Maybe a van or ute would be better for me.
Just really doesn't seem practical either way. How do you guys bring back large hauls of honey? It has me thinking again about doing my honey extraction whilst up there. If I got a van, I could maybe set up a honey processing unit inside the van, or get some sort of portable shelter thing to cover myself so that the bees won't swarm me as I'm working. If I did that though, I guess I'd need to buy a manual extractor, not sure how feasible it'd be to use solar panels or a generator to charge an electric one. Then it seems that, I'd be spending days on end manually extracting frames, I'm not sure if I could physically do it.
Bit lost as to how to proceed. Doesn't seem like I have any practical solution.
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How far are your apiary sites from your home?
when I was growing up (a good few years ago in West Oz) I remember some of the commercial folk having mobile setups; essential a truck or caravan kitted out as an extraction room but even they had a home setup they'd use if the bees were within 3 or 4 hours driving distance.
I'm not sure many if any do that any more??
In your case ... get a ute. (If it's under $20k you'll even have it subsidised by the tax paying public)
and drag supers back and forth a uteload at a time.
re: " So you're telling me that if I had a manual one I'd have to handspin it for 10 minutes per cycle? "
I didn't really pay attention to how long the cycles were going so that was a really a wild guess and it will vary depending on how cold and dense the honey is and perhaps how quickly you are going to get the supers back on the hives (in a heavy flow for instance you might want to just get them back on quickly and not really care about how much honey you are leaving in the stickies)
When I've used manual extractors I most certainly didn't and couldn't keep on spinning it for 10 minutes.
Thinking back to my childhood days; perhaps an option you could consider that would help you sort this out is to find some local commercial beekeepers and volunteer to help them with an extraction.
Knowing how a serious extraction setup works will be invaluable I'd suggest in working out your own one.
Local clubs usually have equipment you can borrow also but the ones I've seen have small/older equipment more suited to someone who has one or two hives than 25+
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I think maybe part of the reason why I ponder on the logistics of spinning in the field, because I once worked with a commercial beekeeper who had a processing unit attached as a trailer to his truck, where one would uncap and spin the frames on site. I only worked with him for a few weeks, but the bees were never an issue. Maybe there was a strong flow on at the time.
3 or 4 hour driving distance? But I thought the bees only had a 5 kilometer flight path, meaning if one went outside 5 kilometers they wouldn't fly out to you? My bees are about an hour away from home.
The local club that I'm planning on joining offers a decent looking small electrical honey spinner to borrow.
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3 or 4 hour driving distance? But I thought the bees only had a 5 kilometer flight path, meaning if one went outside 5 kilometers they wouldn't fly out to you? My bees are about an hour away from home.
The decision factor was more about the trade-off between time spent driving supers back and forth vs the convenience of working in a better facility at home.
They occasionally had to deal with extremely heavy flows too. eg in a seriously heavy (and rare) Karri flow they'd be extracting too fast and too often and didn't have enough supers available to deal with a multi-hour trip to their home base.
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I really want to minimise time driving back and fourth. Petrol is the biggest financial expenditure behind what I do. It's very expensive to run a car.
I guess I'm gonna get a trailer. Hand spinning out in the field seems like it wouldn't work too well, seems like it'd take way too long and create issues with bees and dust.
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My dad used to extract in his carport. If a flow is on it is not too bad. If not, I would not want to do it. Just removing Supers after the flow has stopped is really bad. I helped my father in law extract in his garage this year. Even with the doors closed the bees were finding their way in and then covering the windows trying to get out.
Jim
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3 or 4 hour driving distance? But I thought the bees only had a 5 kilometer flight path, meaning if one went outside 5 kilometers they wouldn't fly out to you? My bees are about an hour away from home.
It is not just honey bees. Many insects are attracted to the smell of honey and take part in the feast. It doesn't have to be just your bees for it to be a problem.
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I hear all of these issues with robbing and yet, I've never observed such. I've only had limited experience, but I do wonder if the bees are less desperate here for nectar due to perhaps lots of things flowering, which is the reason why I don't see this sort of thing happening.
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Omni,
Bees will ignore honey during good flows. If you have flows developing one after another they have no reason to rob.
I have taken a part a hive, in a truck tool box, in my apiary without any bees trying to rob it and there was broken honey comb everywhere.
Jim
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That's basically been my experience with working with bees for a couple of years. I've never observed the sort of robbing behaviour that I see people talk about on the internet.
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It can get really bad. I have seen it several times when trying to remove honey Supers.
Jim
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omnimirage, sorry I didn't see the questions you had about the extractor I build. I got part of the guts from a fellow on here several years ago. I got the drum from a local fellow that had some food grade drums for sale, I think I got 2 of them for $45 for both. Used them for a couple of years using a drill to turn the frames. Then I had a new center shaft made and put a treadmill motor on it, works great for me. I got the tread mill at a local salvage store. The part you would run on was bent, talked to fellow there into $5. for it. Took a few days to get everything hooked up and running good. Split the lid and attached back together with a piano hinge, have the treadmill controls to adjust speed, put a bulk head fitting in the bottom for honey to drain out of with a valve. I does 8 mediums or 8 shallows or 4 large, I use med and shallow honey supers. Hope this may help.
Good luck,
Joe D