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Robbers ?
« on: July 21, 2023, 11:55:05 pm »
I've been popping the top to crush beetles in the corners and looking in the oil pan each day since installing bottom screen. Haven't found any living beetles in a few days but every day there are more in the oil pan, so I was starting to feel pretty good..

Today, I came home to dead bees and ants in front of the hive.. like enough to cover one side of a deep frame ... There were also 2 bees fighting on the ground. All but 2 of the bees on the landing porch looked small and way fewer than usual. The bees coming in looked full grown and in a hurry. As soon as they land, they scurry inside. They weren't being challenged at all from what I saw.
The number of bees crawling on top of the frames etc was a lot less than usual. I did not pull any frames.
Did not find any wax in the oil pan. Just beetles and what looks like pollen.
Did not see bees leaving that looked like they were "flying heavy" .. they weren't dipping after they took off, anyway.
Today's high was only 96 but no wind and humid so heat index was 113
They haven't been as active in the past few days and there seem to be less flowers blooming so maybe in a dearth period.

pictures I took are too big to post except one of the top of the frames showing how few bees were on top .. The hive is a 10 frame with 9 frames in it. For some reason, they didn't like one of the frames and built comb on the frames next to it really thick and were connecting those combs to the empty frame in a couple of spots. I cut the empty frame loose and removed it, pushed the thick frames together until the bees started making "WE ARE IRRITATED" noises, and backed it off until they started settling down (maybe backed off 1/8" at most) It is just a deep box. I had a shallow super on it, but they were ignoring it and hadn't fully filled the bottom box yet. The super seemed like more places to hide for beetles, so I took it back off
 

Should I close this hive (assuming with 1/8" hardware cloth) for a couple of days and reopen with a robbing screen ?

Install a robbing screen rather than closing it off first ?

Look for other bee-killing things ?  ? like ?

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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2023, 12:10:52 am »
Here's a thread with instructions for several different ways to resize your photos: https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=51631.msg499186#msg499186
I'd like to see them before making any sort of serious assessment, but bees fighting and a dearth in your area (Phillip mentioned it on another thread) sounds like robbing to me at first glance.  As long as you install the robbing screen when the robbers aren't in there, it will probably take care of it, if robbing is the problem.  I don't think you need to seal up the hive for several days.  Just install the screen at night or in the rain or something like that, so the robbers don't learn the screen on their way out of the hive.   
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2023, 01:19:09 am »
entrance with small number of small bees
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2023, 01:29:00 am »
ground at front, there were more ..scattered about 3' diameter
top of frames
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Offline iddee

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2023, 06:53:00 am »
Looks like a pesticide kill to me. Maybe followed up with a small amount of robbing.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2023, 08:07:03 am »
Looks like a pesticide kill to me. Maybe followed up with a small amount of robbing.

It does ...  Could be ...
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2023, 10:42:48 am »
ok .. now you have me a little paranoid .. unless your're talking about them getting into a sprayed field somewhere.
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2023, 10:54:41 am »
Quote
unless your're talking about them getting into a sprayed field somewhere.


Yes possible.  What crops are in your area? 
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2023, 11:11:15 am »
ok .. now you have me a little paranoid .. unless your're talking about them getting into a sprayed field somewhere.
Your evil realtor strikes again!!  :cheesy:  No, they probably just got into something out foraging.  I agree that the amount of bees there looks like something more than only robbing.  The other thing that points to it being a pesticide is that you mentioned you saw a significant amount of dead ants, and I don't know why they would be in the middle of a bee fight.  Maybe the ants were messing with the contaminated dead bees and were killed for their trouble. 

Since we're not really sure how much robbing was going on, I would still reduce the entrance to 1 or 2 bee spaces or add a robbing screen just to be safe.  Robbing is a lot easier to prevent than it is to stop, and this hive is still pretty small, all things considered.       
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2023, 11:28:09 am »
crops? really don't know There aren't any big farms, just gardens here and there. 5 mile radius is mostly subdivision, airport, woods and some pasture. I'm "in the city" but I get deer and other critters in the yard .. over half surrounding land is light woods.
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2023, 11:32:50 am »
not dead ants .. live ants going after dead bees on the ground
and crawling up onto/into the hive ... small ones, not fire ants
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2023, 11:55:43 am »
crops? really don't know There aren't any big farms, just gardens here and there. 5 mile radius is mostly subdivision, airport, woods and some pasture. I'm "in the city" but I get deer and other critters in the yard .. over half surrounding land is light woods.
In that case, it could easily have been some backyard gardener or someone with prize rosebushes or a lawn or some other such place where pesticides don't belong. 

not dead ants .. live ants going after dead bees on the ground
and crawling up onto/into the hive ... small ones, not fire ants
Oh, I see.  Those little ants entering the hive are also taking advantage of the weak state of the colony, a reduced entrance may help deter them as well, as they are opportunists in my experience. 

From your pictures, this colony looks pretty small for this time of year.  They are in a single deep, correct?  I'm a little concerned they are going to have trouble getting through the winter at this size, since now that the solstice is passed, this hive isn't going to continue to grow like it did in spring and early summer.  Guys, what do you think about him feeding to get them built up for winter?  Phillip, can he expect a fall flow in your experience?     
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Offline iddee

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2023, 12:04:30 pm »
Most large farms try to be bee friendly. A small back yard garden will be covered with 7 dust, never thinking about pollinators, thus killing everything for 5 miles.

Sentimentally, FEED< FEED< FEED.

Practically, COMBINE.
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2023, 12:10:05 pm »
attempt at screen early this morning ... the entrance on the inside of the screen is 4" wide .. made by cutting a diagonal notch out of the bottom 3/4" x 3/4"  wood piece... making the opening from the screened in area to the hive 3/4" x 4"
Should that be smaller?

Should I bend the screen at the top over against the hive body and cut a notch in it to make the entrance for the screened area smaller?

Or would it be better to toss the screen and block off all but 1/2"

These bees don't seem very bright.. having a lot of trouble figuring out how to get in... just lifted the screen to let a batch walk under (that were loaded down with pollen and lined up on the porch just sitting there ... also some that are more active and not carrying pollen(didn't let them in) ..
Should the screen be shorter?

and yea .. I have a small hive ... but it's got adjustable length legs and wheels ! ... so there !  :tongue:
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2023, 12:20:24 pm »
Sentimentally, FEED< FEED< FEED.

Practically, COMBINE.
Animal only has this one hive, so he can't combine. 

These bees don't seem very bright.. having a lot of trouble figuring out how to get in... just lifted the screen to let a batch walk under (that were loaded down with pollen and lined up on the porch just sitting there ... also some that are more active and not carrying pollen(didn't let them in) ..
Just give them a couple of hours and they'll have it figured out.  The robbers are attracted by the smell of the honey, and loving bee-lines for obvious reasons, they have difficulty comprehending that they need to first move away from the smell to get around the screen.  The bees who actually live in the hive are just looking for a way inside by any means necessary, so they'll crawl around and eventually discover how to get in. 
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2023, 12:46:46 pm »
Cool .. Thank You !

On the subject of feeding.. a few (almost guaranteed to be dumb) questions..
I still have some full honeycomb from the cut-out. Would putting the shallow super back on with frames loaded with their own honey be good?
What about water ? It seems like they would need water, but I know nothing here..

Or a chamber that they could access from inside the hive to get to honey and/or water?

and.. ants were not in the hive this morning, only stragglers on the ground. ... realtor.. actually, wouldn't put it past him after hearing more stories about him

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2023, 06:10:45 pm »
I still have some full honeycomb from the cut-out. Would putting the shallow super back on with frames loaded with their own honey be good?
At this point I wouldn't.  My concern is that there aren't enough bees to cover all the frames and protect the honey from robbers and beetles.   
 
Or a chamber that they could access from inside the hive to get to honey and/or water?
As a general rule, feeding inside the hive is always better.  Open feeding carries several serious perils.  Firstly, it encourages all the bees within 3-6 miles to congregate at your feeder, causing you to waste feed on bees who aren't yours and don't need it, and encouraging disease and parasite spread between colonies.  It also encourages robbing in your own yard, because when you remove the feeder, all the random bees who were used to finding food there can easily switch over to robbing your colony when there is no more syrup to be had.  Perhaps worst of all, you can contaminate your neighboring beekeepers' honey supers with sugar syrup, which will never turn into honey.  This is why you (almost) never feed if there is a flow on, because you don't want sugar water in your honey either. 

There are many different styles of in-hive feeder available, but the easiest one is a mason jar.  Just punch a line of holes in the lid, fill with sugar syrup, turn the jar upside down on the hole in the inner cover, and place an empty box over the jar.  If you don't use an inner cover or don't have one with a hole, you can just place the upside down jar on the top bars instead.  The risk is that the bees will build crazy comb in the wide open space of the empty box, but there are ways to mitigate that risk.

The basic reason I think you should feed is that if you aren't expecting any more flow where you live, this hive will not continue to grow, and I don't think that colony is at critical mass to make it through the winter.  But then again, your winters are pretty mild, so I'd like someone from your climate to confirm that I'm thinking correctly.  Where I live, I want to see 2 of my boxes (8-frame mediums) crammed with bees going into winter.  I know your girls are in a deep, and that it's not fall yet, but that colony just looks sparse.  All of my colonies are in at least 4 boxes right now for comparison. 

Guys, he is feeding in "fall", but his goal is to continue to encourage brood-rearing, so do you think 1:1 or 2:1 syrup?

What about water ? It seems like they would need water, but I know nothing here..
 
Bees absolutely need water.  Like basically every other living thing, they need water to drink, but they also use it for their air conditioning.  Bee spread water on the combs and then fan their wings to encourage evaporative cooling.  Unlike feeding, open watering is perfectly fine.  Bees are at great risk of drowning in deep (for them) standing water, and they also love "dirty" water, so they really like the edges of bodies of water or puddles.  If you have somewhere on your property that is always wet (like a leaky hose or if you have drip irrigation or a boggy spot that is never dry) they are good to go already.  I don't, so to be sure they always have access to water when it hasn't rained, I have an old rubber dog dish full of stones in my mom's garden, and she makes sure it is always full.           
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2023, 07:52:53 pm »
saw several versions of jar feeders. One was just holes poked in the lid of a jar that sits on a framed screen placed over the hole in the inner cover. Another was a jar with the lid made like a tray.

By "chamber they can access from inside", the easiest version I envisioned was something like the latter jar type feeder ...  with one for honey and another for water (if needed) ... on a shelf inside of an empty super .. and the lid over that. ... and if they needed water given inside. Sorry, I wasn't clear. (and probably still aren't ) .... so this is a bad idea because of crazy comb and maybe other reasons too?

My inner cover is currently a glorified doubled window screen that catches beetles, but making a solid inner cover and tossing the screen  is no big deal.
 
So ... let them get water from outside and make another inner cover to put a jar feeder on.

As far as the liquid feed goes, would there be anything wrong with filling the feeder jar with their own honey from the original cut-out (other than viscosity/water content) ? .. If using it, should I adjust it?s viscosity to be the same as a recommended sugar syrup?
It just seemed like honey would be better for them, and I still have lots of it. .. even after giving away lots of it.
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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2023, 09:28:36 pm »
I'm  sure the dead observed were only a fraction of the actual number killed. Pretty sure poisoning is again the culprit. Too many disappeared too fast.
 Up to a couple of days ago, there would be bees covering everything when the hive was opened up. Glancing in from the top, those naked new thick combs would be barely visible between bees as they were literally crawling all over everything .. including each other. They never reached original numbers, but considering (pretty sure) between 2/3 and 3/4 were killed in the first poisoning, they seemed to be doing okay. Just guessing, but today I'd estimate  half are gone this time. with the numbers left comparable to after the first poisoning.
They have been really loud today and there have been a lot of aggressively flying bees around the hive that I imagine to be invaders. The "normal" looking bees are coming in loaded with pollen and are more active than yesterday. Don't know if any of that means anything , though.... but the way they're acting today reminds me of how they were while getting over the first poison incident. If, they're still around in the spring, maybe they'll make a good hive. They wouldn't have lived this long without the people on this site .. Thanks guys and gals

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Re: Robbers ?
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2023, 09:49:18 pm »
By "chamber they can access from inside", the easiest version I envisioned was something like the latter jar type feeder ...  with one for honey and another for water (if needed) ... on a shelf inside of an empty super .. and the lid over that. ... and if they needed water given inside. Sorry, I wasn't clear. (and probably still aren't ) .... so this is a bad idea because of crazy comb and maybe other reasons too?
Uh . . . it sounds to me like whatever you are envisioning is just unnecessary, and anything that creates more than 1 bee space of open space in the hive will be asking for crazy comb if the bees are drawing.  But you are right, I'm not really understanding what you are envisioning.  :grin:   

My inner cover is currently a glorified doubled window screen that catches beetles, but making a solid inner cover and tossing the screen  is no big deal.


Is it literally window screen that you are using?  Basically I'm wonder what would happen if you set a jar on the screen.  Would it tear the screen?  Would the bees still be able to get to the holes in the jar lid easily?  If the screen is either rigid or flexible enough to not damage it, and porous enough to let the bees tongues access the syrup, you may just be able to set the jar on top of the screen, put another box around the jar, and you'd be good to go. 

As far as the liquid feed goes, would there be anything wrong with filling the feeder jar with their own honey from the original cut-out (other than viscosity/water content) ? .. If using it, should I adjust it?s viscosity to be the same as a recommended sugar syrup?
It just seemed like honey would be better for them, and I still have lots of it. .. even after giving away lots of it.

Honey is better for them, and if you were just trying to be sure they had enough food to get through winter, I would say to feed them the honey (or really just give them the super back, since that is way less work).  But what we are actually trying to do is mimic a flow so the bees continue to raise a lot of brood.  We want to make sure they have enough BEES to get through the winter.  Without the stimulation of a flow, at this time of year, the bees will contract the brood nest, and we want them to expand it, or at least keep it constant for longer than nature is telling them to.  You could mimic that flow by feeding them the honey, but you might just want to save that super for their winter food.  It depends on how much honey is in there right now.  When you inspected them last, do you remember how much brood, honey, and pollen they had?  We also need to know how much honey is recommended for overwintering in your area.  For me it's 40 lbs or essentially 1 medium super.       

I'm  sure the dead observed were only a fraction of the actual number killed. Pretty sure poisoning is again the culprit. Too many disappeared too fast.
Up to a couple of days ago, there would be bees covering everything when the hive was opened up. Glancing in from the top, those naked new thick combs would be barely visible between bees as they were literally crawling all over everything .. including each other. They never reached original numbers, but considering (pretty sure) between 2/3 and 3/4 were killed in the first poisoning, they seemed to be doing okay. Just guessing, but today I'd estimate  half are gone this time. with the numbers left comparable to after the first poisoning.
I agree.  I had a hive get into something earlier in the year, and it was a suddenly catastrophic loss of bees.  Fine one day, and the next day thousands dead on the ground and the bottom board.   :sad:

They have been really loud today and there have been a lot of aggressively flying bees around the hive that I imagine to be invaders. The "normal" looking bees are coming in loaded with pollen and are more active than yesterday. Don't know if any of that means anything , though....
Robbers are investigative.  They are checking every crack, seeking for a way to sneak in.  If the bees are acting aggressively, they could just be guard bees who are hyped up from robbers.   

If, they're still around in the spring, maybe they'll make a good hive. They wouldn't have lived this long without the people on this site .. Thanks guys and gals
It's going to be an uphill climb for them, but with a little help, they still could make it through the winter.  Like you say, at least you gave them a chance. 

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