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Author Topic: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.  (Read 9124 times)

Offline Thetreehouse

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Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« on: March 15, 2018, 08:50:11 pm »
Hi Everyone,

I?m new to beekeeping (2 weeks) however I?m very much enjoying learning all I can about this wonderful hobby. This forum has certainly been very help indeed. I?m hoping however that someone could shed a little light on a situation I?m experiencing at the moment which relates to my current temporary Hive Setup, and also about Guard Bees. I?ll first give you an overview of the setup I?ve currently got, & how I?ve rather rapidly become involved with bees.

2 weeks ago I had to relocate a hive of bees that landed about three years ago in a gum tree in my backyard. I live on the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria (Australia). The bees actually took over a large Parrot Nesting Box which was situated about 5 meters up in the gum tree. Up until now the bees have always been completely left alone, as would normally be the case in the wild. However unfortunately the gum tree had been developing some serious issues for quite some time so i had to have it removed.

Before cutting it down though I decided to purchase my first ever brand new 8 frame hive for the Parrot Box bees to live in. The plan after removing the Parrot Box/Bee Hive from the tree was to temporarily connect it to the top of the new box. To achieve this I blocked the Parrot Boxes original entry point & I drilled a 40mm hole in the bottom of it, & another hole in the top of the new hive box. I then aligned the 2 holes & strapped the 2 boxes together. This way the bees can continue to have and maintain their original hive as our winter approaches. I?m hoping in time that the bees will move down into the new box & i?ll then eventually be able to remove the Parrot Box completely. Their only entrance/exit now is via the bottom of the new box. Both boxes are sitting on a timber stand I built which is raises them approximately 600mm from the ground.

Anyway, all went very well with the relocation, and the bees certainly appear to be carrying on with their lives in their new palacial home, that?s now located in a much more suitable part of my yard, which gets lovely morning sun & afternoon shade. At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect.

With regard to my current setup, my intention for the next 6 or so months is to leave the bees alone to allow them to fully settle in & get through winter. I?ll then probably put a honey super on top of the current new box, & remove the Parrot Box once they?ve moved down. I haven?t inspected the contents of the Parrot Box as yet because I fear I?ll probably damage their comb/original hive by lifting the Parrot Box lid, which is the only way to get into it. With winter coming on soon I think its probably best to just leave them alone until maybe Aug/Sept. Would this be considered a good plan for now? Any guidance on this approach would be much appreciated.

In the meantime over the past 2 weeks I?ve spent a stack of time reading a number of beekeeping books & watching a tonne of online videos to learn as much as I can about bees, how to care for them, and what my responsibilities are. In fact although I have zero experience, I actually feel like I now know quite a bit about bees as a consequence of my recent research. I?d really love to find a nearby mentor, so on that note, I?m wondering if there?s anyone in the vacinity of the Mornington Peninsula (Mount Martha area) who would be willing to mentor me for a while. If so, that would be absolutely fantastic & also very much appreciated of course.

Secondly, could anyone tell me why all of a sudden the guard bees are taking a particular dislike to me. Up until a few days ago I?ve been able to approach the hive without any problem, & I?ve been enjoying standing quietly about 1 meter away from the hive?s entrance watching the bees come and go. For the past few days though, almost every time I get within a couple of meters of the hive a number of guard bees attack me. I know that they?re very protective of their hive, but why do you think things have changed from what used to be an enjoyable & painless exercise? When the guard bees attack me, they?re not just ?bumping? me, they?re actually immediately latching on and stinging. It happens very quickly.

Any advice or info that anyone is able to offer me with regard my above plan (ie Parrot Box/New Hive situation), or why I?m all of a sudden experiencing issues with the guard bees, would be very much appreciated.


Thanks in advance for any help you?re able to give me via this forum. I?m going to keep my fingers crossed for a mentor in my area.

All best for now,

Regards

Paul - from Mount Martha, Victoria, Australia.

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2018, 09:13:45 pm »
OK you are in Australia and I am in Upstate NY ... keep that in mind.
If you are approaching fall the B.. iches that are about to die have nothing to lose.  You upset them and they remember.
I think the box you added on the bottom is useless base on your description.  I would have suggested adding the box to the top in the spring time or taking the bottom off the Parrot nesting box and putting it on top of your lang.  Wait until the parrot box gets full of honey then pull it off and harvest.  You really can't do anything in the fall unless you wanted to cut out the whole hive from the parrot box and assemble it into the lang.  That runs the risk of killing the queen.
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Offline Thetreehouse

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2018, 11:32:57 pm »
Hi, Thank you for your response.  Much appreciated.   

To reiterate, the Parrot Nesting Box containing the colony of bees is on top of my Lang.  A 40mm hole was drilled into the bottom of the Parrot Box, and another 40mm hole was drilled into the top of the Lang.  The 2 holes were then aligned, and the boxes strapped together, - as shown in the attached pic.

Offline cao

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 01:11:56 am »
Welcome to the forum.    :happy:

I think you have a good plan.  With it being fall in your area, I would not advise opening the parrot box now.  As I see it you have a couple options come spring.  Once stuff is blooming and there is a flow, you could do a cutout on the parrot box and rubber band any brood comb into the frames of the lang box.  Or you could wait until they move down into the lang box naturally, then remove the parrot box which should be all honey.  The downside to waiting would be trying to inspect the hive with the parrot box attached to the top of the hive.  I would spend the time in the off season(winter) researching cutouts.

As far as the mean guard bees go, I would say that after the move the bees had to get use to the new conditions.  Now they are familiar with their new surroundings and are trying to protect themselves from the pesky human that moved them. :wink:  One thing that I have learned is that bees do remember being mistreated.  Give them a couple weeks to calm down. 

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 09:41:22 am »
I have no idea what your winters are like or for that matter what your fall is like.  What concerns me is a cavity more then double the size of your parrot hive being empty through the winter.  I wouldn't be convinced that the 1.5in hole is enough to get them to except the lang hive.  My third concern is what type of bee is this?  From posts that I have read from your country you have a nasty wild bee that is prevalent.  So do you really want them?
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 11:08:40 am »
At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the
 underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect

G'day Paul... nice pix of your ingenuity, well done... on all counts.
For the problem quoted above grab yourself a tube of painters cellulose based gap
filler. I can see you have done a weather seal around the base of the box so go to
where the bees are clustered to find the gap they are sniffing at, - goop that up.
They are chasing leaking phereomone(sp?). To do it you could apply some smoke
to disperse bees and let them know you are working,
Also might be prudent to restrict that entrance to around 4.5mm high untill you
 have a definite result in some transfer happening.
Being stung?
As @cao said it is very likely the colony has already begun moving down and so
 you are being introduced. If it harms none other than yourself "helicoptering"
their progress then I would advise leaving them bee for at least three weeks.
Come back at that time to duscuss how to complete a transfer and remove
the parrot box for winter.

Bill

Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 02:20:29 am »

Thanks in advance for any help you?re able to give me via this forum. I?m going to keep my f
figgers crossed for a mentor in my area.
All best for now,
Regards
Paul - from Mount Martha, Victoria, Australia.
G'day Paul.
In my earlier submission I was going to comment on "ventilation" but thought
better of it as I reckoned for sure you had this covered, just not in plain view
from your pix.
Then I found the quotes below... made by you elsewhere.

"Should i be sliding that bottom board in at night to help them keep warm, or not? Is their an actual
temperature that a beekeeper would deem cold for the bees, and as a result decide to slide the board in."

and

"Currently there isn?t any ventilation apart from the hole that leads into the top of the lang. "

So, two birds with one stone kinda thing.. close that slider board for now and
 leave it closed, always. Plan to revamp your whole BB to solid board with
12mm to 15mm risers at box wall width, typically 25mm.
Remove that entrance and replace it with a fullwidth entrance. Make a
vertical sliding closure vane to sit over the new entrance and leave it open at 4.5mm
at one end.
Using a 2mm drillbit make a pattern of holes around 4mm apart in the sunset side of
the parrotbox, screen & weathersheild  the resulting 40mm by 40mm area.
The above will not do any harm not already done but just may improve tbe temperment
 of those bees, or subdue some their defensiveness.
There is further reason but I will stick to the point, for now.

I am using this forum as per your invite (quoted). This for two reasons;
I do not and will not post to the forum I lift your text from. Objectively I would comment
you would go a long way in that place to discover any true knowledge. Basically it is a
place of numptys well pleased with illusion and so posting strawmen.
Secondly.
From what I read you are well endowed with ambition and creativity and
attention to detail.
These will serve you well in pursuit of bee things.

Bill

Offline iddee

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 07:35:31 am »
My biggest question is, do you have frames and foundation in the lang? If not, all you are doing is for naught.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 11:00:40 am »
My biggest question is, do you have frames and foundation in the lang?
If not, all you are doing is for naught.

"Before cutting it down though I decided to purchase my first
ever brand new 8 frame hive for the Parrot Box bees to live in. "

In "Oz-tray-lyn" Wally, that means; "I purchase a flatpacked deal ready to go",
Now we(royal) can come in after the fact to argue 4/four frames and divider
boards or the whole 8 in foundationless, or plasticore, or wired or not wired, 
buuut it should be safe to assume Paul has done the yards in researching and
so has built some sort of config in the Lang the bees  could accept.
It certainly 'sounds' like they are at it like ducks to water :)

Bill

Offline iddee

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2018, 12:01:39 pm »
""At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect.""

This is what concerns me, Bill. How are they clustering there if there are frames in the box?

"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 12:29:44 pm »
I haven?t inspected the contents of the Parrot Box as yet because I fear I?ll probably damage their comb/original hive by lifting the Parrot Box lid, which is the only way to get into it.

Paul, are you trying to save the parrot box?  My thought would have been to cut the bottom off so you could see how much a hive is in it.
I looked at Melbourne to see where it is and thought with it being on the southern shore of Australia it would be a colder climate.  I didn't realize that it only reaches about 38 degrees latitude so you are relatively warm.
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Offline Thetreehouse

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2018, 12:38:51 pm »
Hi Bill, Acebird, Iddee and Cao, for your responses, info and guidance.  Very much appreciated.

To answer a few of the questions asked:

Response to 'Cao', Yes, i think your approach is what i'll end up doing, ie I'll wait for now and then perform a cutout from the Parrot box after winter. Although they now have a totally empty Lang box below them to content with, their current set up is too much different to what they originally have. They still have their Parrot Box to occupy through winter, and if they want to expand, they now have an 8 frame lang to move into.

Response to 'Iddee',  'Yes' the Lang has 8 frames inserted with wax foundations. At this stage though the bees are clustering above all of the frames, on the underside of the Lang lid which is approx 50mm from the top of the frames. The 40mm hole/entrance in through the bottom of the Parrot box is located there.  They are clinging/clustering onto and around that hole. Currently they are not doing anything with the new frames, apart from crawling over them to get up to the top and through to the parrot box.  That 40mm hole in the lid is the only way they can get into the parrot box now. I closed the original Parrot box entrance when i removed the box from my tree a couple of weeks ago.

Response to 'Acebird', The bees are European Honey Bees.  Also regarding the Holes i cut to allow the bees access into their original home (the Parrot Box), the holes are 40mm round. One in the top of the Lang and the other in the bottom of the Parrot Box.  The 2 holes have then been aligned so that the bees can get in/out or the Parrot Box. They are all now entering the Lang via the bottom landing entrance and then climbing up through the Lang to the inside of the Lang lid. Once they are there, they are entering the Parrot box through the 40mm hole. Its the only way in and out. The underneath of the Lang lid is quite clustered with bees.  I assume that the Parrot Box is also full of them and their comb.  They haven't started to build on the new Lang frames as yet, however they've only had access to them for approx 2 weeks.  When it starts to get cold, I'll slide the bottom board in, which will help keep the inside warm.  Currently the bottom the lang is made of stainless steel mesh which is currently fully open to the outside air. Its still quite warm here, especially during the day ie 30 degrees C. I'll leave the slide out until the days/nights start to cool down.

Response to 'Bill - Eltalia', Thank you for your detailed response and advice. As mention above, I feel that if i slide the bottom board in now, there won't be enough ventilation for the 2 boxes.  Our days are currently quite hot - 30C+.  I was thinking that i would leave that slide out until it starts to get cold. Maybe around late April. I haven't done any weather sealing around the bottom of the box. The Lang is just sitting on the stand i built for it.
Where the bees are clustered, is where the 40mm round hole is that allows them to get into the top Parrot Box.  I assume they're clustering there because the Parrot box is probably quite full at the moment.  When the Box was still situated up my gum tree (before the tree was cut down), the bees used to cluster on the out side of the Parrot box. It appears that they are continue to do that now, however they can't cluster where they used to (where the original entrance to the Parrot Box was) because i closed that up with some marine ply. 
With regard to my lang entrance, it was initially almost a full width entrance at the bottom of the lang.  i decide to reduce the width to 100mm x 10mm.  The bees seem to be ok with that.  I haven't had much of an issue with the guard bees since reducing the width of the entrance.   Lastly Bill, I'm not sure what you mean in your last Para "I am using this forum as per your invite (quoted)", etc, etc.  Could you expand/explain.

Thanks everyone for your input.  I'm finding this new hobby of mine very interesting indeed.

Regards, Paul.

Offline iddee

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2018, 12:50:54 pm »
That 2 in. space between the lang lid and the frame tops will be the first place they draw comb in the lang hive. Bees hate frames and will always fill other areas first.
In your case, they will draw comb to fill the parrot box, then fill the 2 in. space, then lastly, draw comb on the frames.

You need to remove the bottom of the parrot box, cut the box off at the bottom of existing comb, then set on the lang within 6mm of the top of the frames.
The only alternative is do a total cutout in the spring.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2018, 02:00:25 pm »
You need to remove the bottom of the parrot box, cut the box off at the bottom of existing comb, then set on the lang within 6mm of the top of the frames.

My thoughts too but couldn't he just set the parrot box right on the frames?  Use temporary strips of plywood to cover the exposed frames in the lang box.  I am not one for feeding but if he fed like crazy it might push brood out of the parrot box.  Once full of syrup and honey take the box off and lay it on its side or upside down for them to rob out.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2018, 02:56:36 pm »
Ace, we don't know how much space is under the comb in the parrot box. There MAY be enough for 50 lb. of sugar honey. Also, he is entering fall. They aren't going to draw comb until spring, if he has 4 seasons in his area. I would also have a ""bee space"" between the boxes so they didn't lock them together with propolis or fill with comb and drone cells or honey.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2018, 06:41:19 pm »
Hi Bill, Acebird, Iddee and Cao, for your responses, info and guidance.  Very much appreciated.
(edit)
Lastly Bill, I'm not sure what you mean in your last Para "I am using this forum as per
your invite (quoted)", etc, etc.  Could you expand/explain.

It is generally considered to be poor forum ettique to introduce
discussion/comment from another forum a poster (here) has
made... I made an exception in your case as I did with @omnimirage
as the information elsewhere enhanced the message here (BMA).
Doing this builds a risk an Admin might take exception to the use, I
trust you can appreciate my bending the rules a tad?

Close that slider... now.
It is mid30s+ here, all colonys have solid BBs, that rig you have will
be fine. The bees are not going to build on the frames with an open
bottom.
All @iddee and much of what @Acebird is putting to you finds
good reason in practise, however you are dealing with a relatively
small colony in introducing a huge change, less is best and what
you have done thusfar is enough for now. August is the time to do
more.
For now, change the entrance as per my earlier advice and stop
stop the pheromone leak which is distracting both the bees and
yourself.

Bill


Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2018, 06:54:23 pm »
""At the moment they appear to be continuing to live primarily in the Parrot Box & also clustering to the underside of the new hive lid, where the 2 holes I made connect.""

This is what concerns me, Bill. How are they clustering there if there are frames in the box?

As I know you know bees are relucant to leave brood, and they take the shortest
- read efficient - path to service brood. Brood+Queen equals massive pheromone.
Way more powerful than the installed GPS, if it is sensed bees will follow pheromone
first, we (b'keeps) use this behaviour in many practices around managing colonys.
Those bees are clustering in chasing the trail, I'll bet they are busy chewing wood
or whatever to gain access to the brood whilst the ground crew takes the long way
around in using the set entrance.

Off topic - yet relevant to your question - this pheromone thing, like awareness of
the impact, is another factor in USA trapout methods which is askew. But that is
another story for another day :)

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2018, 10:09:53 am »
Ace, we don't know how much space is under the comb in the parrot box. There MAY be enough for 50 lb. of sugar honey. Also, he is entering fall. They aren't going to draw comb until spring, if he has 4 seasons in his area. I would also have a ""bee space"" between the boxes so they didn't lock them together with propolis or fill with comb and drone cells or honey.

I agree again we don't know how close the comb is to the bottom of the parrot box until he cuts the bottom off.  Then he can cut it again to make it close and even shave some of the comb off that might be empty.

I looked up Melbourn to check on the climate.  He doesn't really have 4 seasons.  Based I what I found on his climate he might be able to feed most of his fall so that gives him the possibility to draw comb before "winter".
With foundationless comb in the parrot box the bees should create the bee space when they draw to the top bars in the Lang.  They might propolise the parrot box to the top of the bars but I don't see that as a hard thing to break loose.
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Offline iddee

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2018, 10:21:44 am »
You may be right there. I think we have given him what we can. I'm going to let Bill take it from here. He's in that neighborhood.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2018, 10:59:40 am »

He doesn't really have 4 seasons.

Correct... Melbornia has just three seasons, and usually in
any single day;
bl00dy cold
bl00dy hot
bl00dy miserable
... the latter when it is either of the preceding two AND raining
as well. Tis a game man that ventures out without an umbrella
or Drizabone tucked under his arm.

There is just some stuph gUUgle.com cannot deliver, Brian.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2018, 02:50:04 pm »
guggle says not much rain.  More like a desert which would explain the bloody cold and bloody hot.  The only thing that matters is the bloody cold.  The bloody miserable would be a plus for feeding because there wouldn't be any robbing while it is down pouring.
I guess where Wally and I are coming from is you don't know what you got until you open the box.  The OP can do it now or he can wait until spring.  That is his choice.  Doing it now does no harm.  Waiting means you could lose an opportunity to help what is there.  Assuming there is something worth helping.
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2018, 03:10:09 pm »
Response to 'Iddee',  'Yes' the Lang has 8 frames inserted with wax foundations.

Paul reading through the thread again this is another thing I would not allow.  If a hive is small and developing you do not want that much space for the bees to defend.  You are hoping the bees to accept a couple of frames in the Lang box not all eight at once.  My guess from the photo is the parrot box only covers about four frames so if you blocked off the area to the other four frames it would be better until they occupy at least three of them.  Once they take up the three frames you can open access to the other four.
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2018, 04:43:30 pm »

@Acebird
"I guess where Wally and I are coming from is you don't know what you got until you open the box. 
The OP can do it now or he can wait until spring.  That is his choice."

As alluded to earlier (by myself) the whole relocate could have been done
very differently, Brian... almost treated as a trapout type scenario inclusive
of where you go in your other comment;
"so if you blocked off the area to the other four frames it would be better until they occupy at least
 three of them.  Once they take up the three frames you can open access to the other four."
.... however Paul used his initiative in research and chose to go the path
described now. It is not an unreasonable call for a novice to make, and
does demonstrate a degree of awareness (care) for the bees.
Sooo.. my advice(s) are designed to help out with what is presented, not
what could have been.

I reckon we all know - or could know with a little "googlin'" - the other
options where the bees were in the box in the tree, the time for major
intervention. The job done, now is not the time to change the direction.
These guys have maybe four weeks to get enough comb drawn on a new
frame to facilltate opening the parrot box and physicaly relocating the
queen IF she has not moved down. Going in there now without anywhere
for her to go lay is an element of risk not justifiable.

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2018, 05:51:23 pm »
Limiting access to four frames instead of 8 is zero risk and improves the survivability of the hive.  Knowing what is inside the parrot box increases the survivability but does have some risk.  There has to be some pressure on the colony for them to use the Lang hive.  He has no open brood to place in it which would guarantee the queen would go in it and most likely lay in open cells.  So the only outside pressure I can see would be to feed.  Do it fast do it now while it is warm enough to draw comb.  For all Paul or anybody knows they could be starving and that is why they are testy.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2018, 06:27:35 pm »
Brian, "I can see" sez it all. No wonder confusion/bewilderment reigns in
online forums around bees where what's seen is not actualy seen.

"For all Paul or anybody knows they could be starving and that is why they are testy."
:rolleyes:
Those bees are not starving, I know the Peninsula well enough to
know know that. Paul would also know, newbee or not.

Bill

Offline Thetreehouse

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2018, 10:01:31 am »
Hi again,

Thank you all, once again for your advice, guidance, opinions, etc,   I really do appreciate it.  I must be honest (as a complete new comer to beekeeping), there really is so much conflicting advice that i've now become quite confused.  Many of you have certainly given me lots of things to consider.  By the way, I'm now also reading my 4th beekeeping book (in 3 weeks) and have learnt quite a lot as well, in a very short period of time.  That aside though.... i'm still none the wiser with what to do with my particular set up.  That's not to say for a minute that i haven't heard what you've all said. Its just that i'm now confused.  There are so many options and things to consider, such as:

a. Do i leave the parrot box/lang how  it currently is, with winter coming on very soon. 

b. Do i cut the bottom off the parrot box, reduce it to the bottom of the existing comb inside, and then somehow place it onto of the lower 8 fame lang.  To do that i suppose i'd also need to cut a large hole in the top of my lang lid (the size of the parrot box) and then weatherproof it all. 

c. Do i reduce the amount of frames available to the colony by closing off access to a few of the outer frames.

d. etc

e. etc.

Although i've never done it before (hey, i've only been a beekeeper for 3 weeks now), for some strange reason I actually feel quite confident at opening up the Parrot Box, Cutting out the Comb, and tying/rubber band it in to some of the new lang frames in the Lang. Hmmm, i'm not sure why is should be feeling so confident in doing that, however it sounds like a reasonable simple task to achieve, as long as i'm well suited up and protected. 
The problem is though, is that i'm also thinking that I should just leave it all along for now.  I'm lets face it, apart from removing the Parrot Box from the top of a large gum tree a few weeks ago and fixing it to the top of a new lang, have i really changed much for the bees at the moment.  If i hadn't have cut the tree down, they would still be in the parrot box up in the tree.  Now, 3 weeks later, they are still in the parrot box. The only difference now is that the parrot box is currently sitting on top of a lang hive in a slightly different location in my backyard.  With this in mind, and with winter/fall coming on, my simple mind tends to see lots of sense in just leaving it all alone for a while. That certainly is an option, and one thats probably the least disruptive the to bees.   

To be honest with you all though, i'd probably prefer (and feel better) if they were already well established in the new 8 frame lang...., but they're not.  By the way, they are definitely looking like they are happy.  There's lots of activity each day, ie comings and goings, non stop.

The only question i'm really struggling to make a decision with is, do i totally disturb them now and remove them from the Parrot Box (ie a Cutout into the new lang), or do i leave it all as it is until after Winter?  Hmmm, right now i really wish i had a mentor who could come and physically look at my setup and help me achieve the best outcome.  Who knows, i might find a suitable mentor when i attend my very first Beekeeping Club Meeting next week.  I'm really looking forward to that.

I do in fact have another question however.  Should there be a screen/board/etc between the top of the lang brood/super and the hive lid.  At the moment my hive lid, which has a cavity under it about 50 deep, is sitting directly on top of the lang brood/super.  Therefore there is a 50mm space between the inside of the lid and the top of the frames.  I note that some of you have indicated that this is not ideal, because the bees don't like empty spaces.  I'm of course wondering why the lid is made like this to begin with, if that's the case.  Should remove the existing lid for a while and construct a totally flat lid without any space below it (ie just a board). I could then connect the Parrot Box to the new 'flat lid', and give the bees access through 2 aligning 40mm holes.  Would that be considered a better setup or something worth considering, as we head into winter? 

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Regards, Paul.

Offline iddee

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2018, 10:58:59 am »
Number one rule in beginning beekeeping.""When in doubt, do nothing.""
You have the hive ready for winter. Leave it as is until spring. By then, you will have a better idea of what you want to do

The space below the lid will only be a problem in the spring when they start drawing comb. That is where they will begin drawing when they enter the lang. They will not draw the frames as long as they have open space. Check them in early spring and remove the open space then.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 11:16:02 am »
As the saying goes, ask 10 beekeepers the same question and you will get 11 different answers.   I think that you have a better handle on the situation than you think. 

I would leave the parrot box alone until a more favorable time of the year(spring) when you have warm weather and a flow going and the bees have time to fix anything you do.  The only thing that I would do now is possibly replace the top cover of the lang to reduce the 50 mm gap between the bottom of the parrot box and the frames.  Even that would not be totally necessary if you are going to do a cutout in the spring.  It would be less space for them to build comb before they start building on the frames. 

Iddee beat me to it, but it is worth saying again.
Number one rule in beginning beekeeping.""When in doubt, do nothing.""

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2018, 02:23:23 pm »
In post 11 you said it was 30C = 86F.  That is a heck of a long way from fall in my book.  If the bees are not expanding or capable of drawing comb I would not have put the parrot box on the Lang hive.  If and that is a big if that is true then I would take the parrot box off.  I see the combination, the way it was done as a problem apparently others don't.  Either way if you can get some local help making a judgment call on the timing next spring it would help allot.
Paul I suspect the cover you have was intended to be some kind of quilt box.  It doesn't make sense that the bees would have access to the 50mm open space.  That is why I recommended putting the parrot box right on the frames and just use individual pieces of wood to cover the Top of the Lang.  There is no need to wreck your good cover.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Thetreehouse

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 07:59:10 pm »
Thanks again for everyone's further input.

Brian (Acebird), Yes you're correct i did say that the temp was 30c+.  Last week it was. However today our temp is only 12C at the moment.  As Bill has previously said, Melbourne has 3 seasons usually in one day. We're currently in our Autumn.  There are a few months remaining before we're officially in our Winter.   Our weather can fluctuate quite dramatically within a short time, and our nights are currently quite cold. It's also incredibly windy today, with quite a bit of local damage being reported.

Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2018, 08:35:59 pm »
Number one rule in beginning beekeeping.""When in doubt, do nothing.""

(edit)

Yer on a roll Wally.. two right in less than a week!!
You will be scoring a trifector any time soon.. heh :)

Paul has to haul his own coal now, plenty has been contributed
in both "wheat and chaff". I'm done, until Spring.

Bill



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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 09:02:22 pm »
There are a few months remaining before we're officially in our Winter.

We are a day away from spring and I would welcome 53F degrees right now but it ain't going to happen.  These are just seasonal words, fall, winter, spring.  What is your winter?  Will you have 3-4 months where the bees will be clustered and can't get out to poop?  That's winter.  But that is a good thing because they won't eat the house and home when there is no way to resupply it.  How much did the parrot box weigh then subtract the weight of the box and a litter for the bees and that is all the honey they have to make it through your winter.  How many bees?  If they are not clustered then they are going to be eating.  Is there any way of resupplying?  These are my concerns.
Brian Cardinal
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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2018, 10:32:11 pm »
Treehouse, it was 21 C. 3 days ago here. Tomorrow, the forecast is snow. March is our 4 season month.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

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Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2018, 09:51:12 am »
 
There are a few months remaining before we're officially in our Winter.
These are just seasonal words, fall, winter, spring.
The Met. guys (BOM , here in Aussie)  have to own some points of reference and so largely copy
the NH model despite much of Australia not complying. The Northern Territory (NT) has a better
system focused on "the Wet" and "the Dry", further broken down to five seasons by the
indigenous peoples around flora and fauna changes.

Quote
What is your winter?  Will you have 3-4 months where the bees will be clustered and can't get out to poop?
That's winter.  But that is a good thing because they won't eat the house and home when there is no way
to resupply it.
Brian I have had this 'thinking' (come mantra) talked over with Mr. Bush in another place, as not
only is it flawed in use as an excuse for Aussies not understanding how clustering works - tho'
many an Aussie b'keep does not, thinking an observed cluster is only bees making wax
(cascading) - but also demonstrates a wholesome lack of understanding as to bee-thinking in
times of dearth.
Bee-thinking being the essence of much of Mr. Bush's work.
A dearth being any period bees cannot forage for environmental reasons, airtemp being just
one.

The actuality for much of Southern Australia is an accumulation of days within the cooler
times('seasons') which fall between 18 celcius and 10 celcius with wind or rain (or both
simultaneously) where bees cannot fly and forage. Bees decide, and they cluster - they
also slow or cease completely any brood rearing.
Very common and well documented by savvy b'keeps. That time can be as long as four
months in dearth. Back in the day nobody fed bees however with utterances from
supposed "esteemed dignitries" visiting from the USA, and the advent of the Internet,
many do today feed bees.
Wholly for the wrong reasons and in my view actually abusing the organism they hope to
care for, or not... in some heads.

In Northern Australia we are a great deal better off in not owning a constant yearly (cyclic)
"winter" , as,  if it gets below 18 celcius most drag out the Vicks [tm] and the horse blanket
to huddle in the pickup, motor running, heater on!
Buuuut what we do get in some years is an extended Wet, and in the Dry a failure of
known reliable species to flower. Our bees "cluster" in these rainy periods and as many have
discovered in woe - having kept right along ripping honey off supers - their bees die, massively
so. When these times extend out to three months, maybe four in some years, colonies drop off
the perch, or swarm, leaving behind a real mess of moth and beetle infestation.

I personally have a rule for honeybadgers - one I do teach as a mantra - which goes like "if
there is no wax wing it", the expansion being... if you do not see new wax formed around the
tops of frame in drawn comb then forget extraction regardless of the state of capacity on
frame inspection.
I have long held bees know better than us just what weather lays ahead or indeed maybe
what flora is coming on.. and they will tell you if you are listening. One of their messages
around excess is to begin building in what was previously beespace. They do that in saying
"good times ahead, here you have some fella... yer a Good Guy"... or some such romantic
drivel..heh :)

So, regardless of the "seasonal word" Brian we do have exactly the same behaviour
happening here "Down Under" as in the NH, the bees know no latitude numbers, they just
deal with what they have wherever they bee.

Yes, I know many a NH b'keep jumps up and down with pointy finger claiming temps below
 0 celcius for weeks, maybe months on end creates a special circumstance - however,  there
 is Man-brain thinking, rampant... for bees "wintering" is simply an adjustment in
longevity.
No...?...think about your (NH) wild hives in existance since the Pilgrims bought "honey in a
box" to America's lands. What we (Man) has done is screw them over with so many opinions
on variances in housing we are then forced to provide stop-gap measures in maintaining the
Colony in an actuality many of us do not understand/comprehend.
The irony in all of the "that's there this is here" argument is the same housing that works
here will work in the NH, as it is primarily that factor which Man has varied from out of the log
hollow.
Change is all that is required, and that I will address in that Cold Weather thread,

Bill










Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2018, 02:21:44 pm »
So, regardless of the "seasonal word" Brian we do have exactly the same behaviour
happening here "Down Under" as in the NH, the bees know no latitude numbers, they just
deal with what they have wherever they bee.

Bill the US is a unique country.  We have 11 of the 13 climates possible in the world.  The winter in FL is not the same as the winter in ME that is what I mean by seasonal word.
It was a long post and I think I understood most of what you said.  You described a condition that was one of my concerns for the parrot box, running out of honey.  I made a comparison to my winter vs. Paul's winter because temperature does matter.  If the temperature is warm enough the beekeeper can feed.  He can induce brood rearing even in a dearth.  That is the difference between my latitude and Paul's.  Rain, wind and dearth affects foraging.  It does not affect the ability to feed or the ability to raise brood.
It is my assumption that Paul wanted these bees to survive.  I think his goal was to get a jump on things and have them established in a Lang hive.  He went ahead and made that first move.  IMO because he made that first move he is forced to try and make that happen.  Had he not done that he could have waited until spring and then tried to transfer them to the Lang.  And I would have said good plan.  That is what we tell newbies that find feral bees in the fall.  Because at my latitude you cannot successfully transfer bees in the fall to a bare bones Lang.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2018, 04:37:36 pm »
"Because at my latitude you cannot successfully transfer bees in the fall to a bare bones Lang"

Nor in any other location where the flying condition falls below 12/15 celcius for much of the
day every day, Brian. None of Aussie is experiencing that now nor indeed for maybe another 6 weeks
at least.
But I have done with Paul's scenario, this response is in relation to my preceding post, one
 addressing your question on Aussie weather seasons.
Please don't have me regret not starting a new topic on it, for sure there is one already in
the archives.

"If the temperature is warm enough the beekeeper can feed.  He can induce brood rearing even in a dearth. "

And right there is the core problem I see USA - and other NH climes - b'keeps creating in
feeding colonies going into winter and breaking out of it.
Such practice finds analogy in building the equivalant of a "strawman", seems to serve a
 purpose, looks good, but has no endurance in sustaining the brood created. And as read,
can cause colony collapse.

Rule (?)... where there is a dearth, brood rearing must slow and egg laying cease.
Hard lesson for some to learn, but the bees will tell you there is the Facts of the matter.

Maybe a new topic in the general forum if you wish to argue this, Brian?

Bill

Offline Acebird

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2018, 09:37:25 pm »
No point in arguing Bill.  You make rules for bees and that just gets me chuckling.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline eltalia

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Re: Relocation of a Wild Hive in a Parrot Box, and Guard Bees.
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2018, 11:01:28 am »
No point in arguing Bill.  You make rules for bees and that just gets me chuckling.

I quote bee rules Brian, not mine.
The day that understanding of the organism happens in many a NH
apiary the losses will fall well below 37% each April.

Till then keep right on chuckling, as you kill bees year in year out.

Bill

 

anything