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Author Topic: never a dull moment  (Read 1425 times)

Offline rgennaro

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never a dull moment
« on: June 24, 2021, 07:34:36 pm »
I was away for 2 weeks. I checked the hives before I left and everything looked good.

Today I inspected the hives and while the Saska hive looks great (lots of honey and brood), the Italian one look queen-less. The top box was basically filled with honey and the bottom box was basically empty. No eggs, no larva, capped brood. Nothing. Because I didn't see any eggs I suspect the hive has not gone LW yet. I suspect they swarmed.

I took a frame of capped brood from the other hive and put it in the queen-less hive. Two questions:

Question 1: is capped brood good enough to temporarily stop a hive from going LW or does one need to put open brood?

Question 2: when do I order a new queen? If they swarmed could it be that there is a virgin  or recently mated queen in there? I am OK with spending the money on the new queen, I just don't want to mess up the process in the hive.

Thank you

R

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Offline LawyerRick

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2021, 08:39:47 pm »
I've found that frames of mixed brood are best for preventing LWs & usually try to place 2 frames of mixed brood in the hive.  After a few hours, brood pheromone is spread by workers & permeates the hive atmosphere "discouraging" LWs.  I say "discouraging"  since sometimes in bee land, the girls don't do what they should do. Lol.  Last year, one of my top bars became queenless & I missed it for 4 weeks.  It turned LW so I put 2 frames of mixed brood in & waited.  No queen cells after 1 week then repeated the process but this time introduced a queen under a screen & it worked!  Overall these years my success rate for LWs is 50/50.  Personally, at this stage of my life, I don't even want to mess with LWs anymore & will probably just combine with a QR colony.  Good luck!!
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Offline .30WCF

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2021, 09:15:49 pm »
If you add some eggs you should find out if they have a virgin in the box. If they don?t draw out cells you probably have a queen that?s just starting to lay or about to lay.  If they start drawing out cells and they get torn down, let them do their thing and look for eggs. If they don?t get torn down, there is a queen in the works.
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2021, 11:34:37 pm »
Quote
No queen cells after 1 week then repeated the process but this time introduced a queen under a screen & it worked!

I agree that push in cages are an asset when a queen is introduced. I learned this from Richard Noel as taught to him by Michael Palmer. I haven't tried this in a laying worker hive. Fifty-percent success is impressive for a LW hive. It is good to know that the push in cage is again an aid, even in this circumstance. Personally I just shake them out as taught by HoneyPump. It is good to know this method is an option if a person has the time and patience.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline TheHoneyPump

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never a dull moment
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2021, 02:32:49 am »
Hey RG
Yeah, I advise folks locally of 10 days max between inspections if you ever want to see queen cells etc and if you want to have any chance at interventions.
At this point based on what you described, the steps to take to recover the hive are pretty much like 30 says;
Step 1:  add a frame (or more) of mixed brood. Ensure there are some eggs and very very young larvae.   Then wait 4 days.
Step 2: after 4 days go look for new queen cells being drawn off of that larvae.
- if there are queen cells:  order your new caged queen. Destroy cells every couple days until you get the new queen. Then introduce as per usual.  Push in cage is a high success method and quite rapid.
- if there are no queen cells:  do nothing more. There must be a VQ in progress. Leave them for 1 week and go look for eggs.  If no eggs later, she is lost or killed. Proceed with ordering the new cage queen at that point 
If at anytime it is not clear what is happening, Go back to step 1, adding a frame of young open and eggs to test again.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2021, 12:41:33 am by TheHoneyPump »
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2021, 03:42:07 am »
Food for thought. HoneyPump has given good advice answering your questions as asked. There are other options if you have any desire to add to your apiary. Now might be a time to consider, there may be as many as 8 or more queen cells formed with the method described. Instead of destroying these queen cells developed and described, you might consider placing one each of these cells in 2 frame mating nucs with a frame with honey and a frame of empty comb, along with a cup of (nurse) bees, (Young nurse bees). If only half of this hypothetical number of queens are successful in hatching and mating you will still be well on the road to 4 more hives. Of course these will need assistance and nurturing but nonetheless, you will be headed in an upward number of colonies.

This will not hinder your plan to order a queen. Go ahead and do so at the proper time. That will give you a hypothetical number of 5 if this one is saved, and you may consider, if the bought mated queen fails, you still have the four mated laying queens in reserve. As I said food for thought.
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2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2021, 11:49:14 am »
Thanks everybody as usual.

The bees were getting angry yesterday so I only inspected the top box of the Saska hive where I only found capped brood. I'll go back today and see if I can find eggs (if I don't it will be a whole new problem!) and proceed according to the plan.

BenF: as a hobbyist my hands are full with 2 hives. I am quite happy as it is ... adding another one would be a burden. I do have swarm traps out ... if I catch one great, but going through the trouble of nurturing another one ...

THP: every 10 days huh? I was under the impression that every 2 weeks was ok ...
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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never a dull moment
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2021, 01:22:15 pm »
If they are in the mood, there can be capped queen cells in as few as 4 days from when you put the lid back on and walk away.  Leading up to day 10 to 12 from last inspection when an emerging rogue virgin(s) can occur. (And a swarm just prior to that if they are so inclined)
During high time, build-up / swarming season, stay less than 10d.  8 is ideal and gives time to plan and react to what is found. At other periods of the year, the inspection interval may lax to be up to a month or more.
Ultimately it would come down to ones style of beekeeping.  Whether want to be in tune and in control of the hive; or minimalist and out of control.
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2021, 07:24:57 pm »
update: I moved another frame into the trouble hive today, this time with open brood (I am pretty sure I saw eggs and tiny larvae). BUT the trouble hive does have some brood: very little and very spotty but there were some open larvae. More interestingly there was a queen cell with an egg in it, positioned in the middle of the frame. I am now even more confused.
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2021, 12:32:41 am »
For the first day or so a new queen getting established will lay all over the place, including in cups. That may be what you are seeing.  If so, congratulations!  Now you just need to keep an eye on it as the nest gets filled out. That includes destroying that egg in the cup.
The other cause of what you are seeing could be beginnings of the laying worker situation. Yes a LW may lay in a cup. If so, condolences!
Your new frame of eggs and young larvae added will tell you which situation it is in 4-5 days.  Per step 1 step 2 above. 
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline rgennaro

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2021, 07:12:04 pm »
it looks like it's a congratulations situation. I went in today (5 days after putting a frame of eggs and young larvae) and didn't see any queen cells and most importantly much better organized brood in the frames. Definitely a queen in there though I didn't see her. Brood pattern is stll not perfect but maybe she needs time. My main concern now is that the hive is getting honey-bound. There isn't a lot of space to lay, many of the frames are full with honey. Today the bees were mean: it was hot, humid and a storm was approaching. Tomorrow I will put a deep super and move all the honey filled frames in there and put more empty frames in the brood chamber.

When to inspect again? 10 days?

thank you all
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Offline TheHoneyPump

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never a dull moment
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2021, 09:40:28 pm »
Congrats!   On the track of recovery. 
Next look is LESS than 10 days.  8 days interval is ideal.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 11:31:13 pm by TheHoneyPump »
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When the lid goes back on, the bees will spend the next 3 days undoing most of what the beekeeper just did to them.

Offline FloridaGardener

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Re: never a dull moment
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2021, 10:35:12 pm »
I agree, for other reasons.  Because I had business obligations, then it was rainy... and then a week went by... 
I went to an outyard today, only 20 days since last inspection.  A strong 10-frame hive was completely covered in wax moth fuzz & larvae.  Colony had absconded, and looks like some of the hive was robbed while the larvae were hatching.  The whole box went into the freezer.  (*sigh*)

It's actually difficult to find time to do semi-thorough inspections on every hive, before the heat of the day. But I'm going to do "peek" inspections more often. The bees' sound & smell will help to tell me if there's something wrong, even if I don't get all the way down the top supers to the brood nest.
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