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Offline The15thMember

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Old ABJ Quotes
« on: October 15, 2022, 07:08:56 pm »
Someone a while ago posted a link to a website that has old editions of the American Bee Journal (and lots of other cool old stuff that is out of copyright) available to read for free.  I can't find the original post, but whoever it was, thanks again, because I've been having fun printing them out and reading them.  Here's the link again, for anyone who is interested.   https://www.survivorlibrary.com/index.php/8-category/13-library-bee%20journal%20(american)

I thought it might be fun to post any good quotes I find as I'm reading.  Some are funny, some are educational, some are just historically interesting.  This will be a sporadic thing, as I'm only allowed to print out one issue per cartridge of ink, but I figured it'd be a cool way to generate some discussion. 

American Bee Journal, Vol. 1, No. 1, Jan. 1861

Quote
In conducting this Journal, our aim will be to promote bee culture as a systematic practical pursuit, based on established principles and ascertained facts.  In furtherance of this object, while we invite and will give scope to full and free, yet temperate and courteous discussion, we shall unreservedly, as occasion may require, express our own views and convictions--striving to place before the reader, the information requisite for intelligent judgment, on any topic that may claim attention or deserve notice.

This first quote is from the introduction to the first issue, and I love the way it's phrased.  I've gathered from reading some of the articles that this is a time period when a lot of information about the lives of bees is just starting to be discovered.  There is a lot of hearsay, speculation, and old wives tales about bees that are passed around as factual, but are starting to be found untrue by some of the world's leading apiculturists, mainly through experiments with the newly available Italian bees.  Langstroth's moveable frame hive was patented almost 10 years ago, and through exposure to working the bees with this new technology, many are able to really interact with their bees for the first time in ways that skeps or "common hives" (hives with boxes but no frames) never afforded.  The journal in its first several issues is striving to set the facts as they are now known before the average beekeeper, systematically discussing many of the things we now take for granted that we know about honey bees. 

Quote
Who divides these workers thus into two distinct classes (foragers and house bees)?  Who orders this subdivision of their labors?  Who inspires one portion with home-keeping propensities, and directs their attention to domestic duties; and impels the others to roam abroad for supplies and provide stores for autumn and winter?  HE, who framed their bodies and infused their instincts.  Their actions are not the result of reflection and choice, but of those innate impulses with which THE CREATOR has endowed them.  What they do, they do unbidden, impelled thereto by an inborn industry actuated by different predilections, and assuming different tendencies at different stages of life, yet co-working, from first to last, for the common good.

I love the 1860s.  :happy:  I love how during this time period, you weren't practically required to be an atheist to be a scientist.  I also love this romantic period in literature, where all writing has an emotional flavor about it, even a subject like this.  Our scientific literature has become extremely sterile, and I love how alive and appreciative the tone is, and how it humanizes even the bees.  I like that I can sense the writer's love for bees through his writing.  It's a feeling that connects beekeepers around the world and through all time periods.     

I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2022, 09:01:19 am »
Thanks for that link, It will make for some good reading this winter.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2022, 06:20:28 pm »
Quote
This [Langstroth] hive, in its ordinary form, is of the most simple construction; and, together with the frames, may easily be made by any one accustomed to use carpenters' tools.  It can be made of any size or form which experience or experiment shows to be advantageous.  It is opened from above, and any frame may be removed or replaced at pleasure, so that the beekeeper has perfect control of the combs and the bees.  The mode of managing it and performing with it any operation required can be learned without difficulty.  Nor is there any conceivable advance or improvement in bee culture, to which it is not completely adapted.
 
It's rare for someone to predict a particular invention is the end all, fix all for a problem and for that prediction to turn out to be true.  Even today, 170 years later, the Langstroth hive is still the standard of beekeeping, and virtually unchanged from its original construction. 

Quote
There are three German adages with run thus:
1. Bees, sheep, and angle-rod, be sure,
Will make thee quickly rich--or poor!

2. Sheep, doves, and bees, (nought surer,)
Will make thee nor richer nor poorer!

3. Keep plenty of bees and sheep,
Then cozily lie down and sleep!

In the kingdom of Bavaria, over 200,000 hives of bees are kept, according to the official returns made to the government; and these, it is stated yield and average annual profit of 75 per cent. on investment.  In view of this result, a late German writer thanks there is rather more truth in the last of these adages than in the first two. 
I thought this was funny.  It seems beekeepers' constantly differing opinions also extend to the economics of beekeeping!  :cheesy:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

salvo

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2022, 06:31:35 pm »
Hi 15,

WOW! Excellent recommendation and link.

I know what you mean about *...holding something that you're reading*. I miss paper. Can you *Save* the PDF, or *Print to PDF*? or *Cute PDF*?  It might save both paper and ink.

I just saved the first volume to a folder in my desktop.

Sal

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2022, 06:41:56 pm »
Hi 15,

WOW! Excellent recommendation and link.

I know what you mean about *...holding something that you're reading*. I miss paper. Can you *Save* the PDF, or *Print to PDF*? or *Cute PDF*?  It might save both paper and ink.

I just saved the first volume to a folder in my desktop.

Sal
I have it saved to my desktop too, just for easy access.  I just really prefer reading from something in my hands, not only because I just prefer it, but I also like to be able to highlight, make notes, take it with me outside, and just pull it off the shelf for easy reference.  I know I could probably figure out ways to do all that digitally, but I'd rather not.  :grin: 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

salvo

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2022, 09:52:28 pm »
An Oldie from 1869.

Does Bee-keeping Pay?

C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. 1869

 If you are in doubt upon that point, I suggest that you turn over the leaves of my record for 1869. It is the record of one much more truly a "novice" in these matters, than the experienced and enthusiastic correspondent who wears that name in the columns of the Bee Journal.

My stock in trade for the spring of 1869 consisted of two old box hives almost destitute of honey, with few bees in each; about fifty frames of empty combs from Langstroth hives; and any required amount of interest in the subject.

I began feeding syrup in March, using the inverted can with perforated screw top; fed plentifully till flowers came, using for each hive 5 lbs. 8 oz. of coffee sugar.

Between June 11th and 28th, each of these stocks threw off four good swarms, which were duly cared for in Langstroth hives, with a fair allowance of empty comb as a start in housekeeping.

From the two prime swarms I removed the honey boards a few days after hiving, placing one set of surplus boxes directly on the frames.

July 8th, I hived a large swarm that came to me. Instead of two, there were now eleven stocks.

The wet weather kept up a constant succession of clover blossoms; pastures and commons were white and sweet until late in September. But, "into each life some rain must fall," and just here came in my reverses.

Not looking for any further increase of stocks, I left home for a few weeks. During my absence one prime swarm threw off a large colony (Aug. 13), which not being properly cared for, deserted soon after hiving. On my return I found a third swarm infested by worms, and broke it up. (N. B. ?I plead guilty to carelessness in the use of old comb.) August 25, the same hive that had distinguished itself twelve days before, sent out a fair second swarm, which was secured, receiving the last of the old combs, and a full frame of brood and honey from the parent stock. That was the end of swarming.

I took something over 210 lbs. of surplus honey. 100 lbs came from the top of one prime swarm. Enough of this was sold at thirty cents per pound, to amount to fifty dollars. My eleven hives were all heavy, ready with some protection for out of door wintering.

Does bee-keeping pay ? Have I answered the question?

This result was obtained in an old fashioned way. Given, a season equally favorable, with all the "modern improvements,"?Italian bees, a "melextractor," etc., etc. and what might not be expected?

But my record fails to show what constituted really the largest share of the summer's profits. I did not know how to put it in figures. The still bright hours when, with shawl spread upon the grass, I was at home among my bees?those  ?singing masons building roofs of gold" ?loving them just as much when they paid friendly visits to my wrapper, my hands, or my hair, as As when they kept at a greater distance ; the health which came with those hours ? the delight afforded by a most fascinating branch of natural history?the new ideas, whose value the future must determine?all this is beyond the reach of arithmetic.

Success to the Journal, and may it number more and more women among its subscribers and constant readers !* C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. Aye, and allow us to add correspondents to the enumeration, for they always succeed admirably both as writers and apiarians. Ecce supra/ ?Ed.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2022, 12:09:27 am »
An Oldie from 1869.

Does Bee-keeping Pay?

C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. 1869

 If you are in doubt upon that point, I suggest that you turn over the leaves of my record for 1869. It is the record of one much more truly a "novice" in these matters, than the experienced and enthusiastic correspondent who wears that name in the columns of the Bee Journal.

My stock in trade for the spring of 1869 consisted of two old box hives almost destitute of honey, with few bees in each; about fifty frames of empty combs from Langstroth hives; and any required amount of interest in the subject.

I began feeding syrup in March, using the inverted can with perforated screw top; fed plentifully till flowers came, using for each hive 5 lbs. 8 oz. of coffee sugar.

Between June 11th and 28th, each of these stocks threw off four good swarms, which were duly cared for in Langstroth hives, with a fair allowance of empty comb as a start in housekeeping.

From the two prime swarms I removed the honey boards a few days after hiving, placing one set of surplus boxes directly on the frames.

July 8th, I hived a large swarm that came to me. Instead of two, there were now eleven stocks.

The wet weather kept up a constant succession of clover blossoms; pastures and commons were white and sweet until late in September. But, "into each life some rain must fall," and just here came in my reverses.

Not looking for any further increase of stocks, I left home for a few weeks. During my absence one prime swarm threw off a large colony (Aug. 13), which not being properly cared for, deserted soon after hiving. On my return I found a third swarm infested by worms, and broke it up. (N. B. ?I plead guilty to carelessness in the use of old comb.) August 25, the same hive that had distinguished itself twelve days before, sent out a fair second swarm, which was secured, receiving the last of the old combs, and a full frame of brood and honey from the parent stock. That was the end of swarming.

I took something over 210 lbs. of surplus honey. 100 lbs came from the top of one prime swarm. Enough of this was sold at thirty cents per pound, to amount to fifty dollars. My eleven hives were all heavy, ready with some protection for out of door wintering.

Does bee-keeping pay ? Have I answered the question?

This result was obtained in an old fashioned way. Given, a season equally favorable, with all the "modern improvements,"?Italian bees, a "melextractor," etc., etc. and what might not be expected?

But my record fails to show what constituted really the largest share of the summer's profits. I did not know how to put it in figures. The still bright hours when, with shawl spread upon the grass, I was at home among my bees?those  ?singing masons building roofs of gold" ?loving them just as much when they paid friendly visits to my wrapper, my hands, or my hair, as As when they kept at a greater distance ; the health which came with those hours ? the delight afforded by a most fascinating branch of natural history?the new ideas, whose value the future must determine?all this is beyond the reach of arithmetic.

Success to the Journal, and may it number more and more women among its subscribers and constant readers !* C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. Aye, and allow us to add correspondents to the enumeration, for they always succeed admirably both as writers and apiarians. Ecce supra/ ?Ed.

:happy:  I love this!  This is exactly what I'm talking about!
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2022, 08:02:17 am »
From Doolittle's Scientific Queen Rearing;

At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable "Yankee questions" - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?

In nothing more than in Queen-Rearing, can we see the handiwork of Him who designed that we should be climbing up to the Celestial City, rather than groveling here with a "muck-rake" in our hands (as in "Pilgrim's Progress"), trying to rake in the pennies, to the neglect of that which is higher and more noble. There is something in working for better Queens which is elevating, and will lead one out of self, if we will only study it along the many lines of improvement which it suggests. I do not believe that all of life should be spent in looking after the "almighty dollar;" nor do I think that our first parents bustled out every morning, with the expression seen on so many beekeepers' faces, which seem to say, "Time is Money" The question, it seems to me, in regard to our pursuit in life, should not be altogether, "How much money is there in it?" but, "Shall we enjoy a little bit of Paradise this side of Jordan. However, being aware, of the general indifference to Paradise on either side of Jordan, I will state that I have made Queen-Rearing pay in dollars and cents, having secured on an average about $500 per year therefrom, for the past five years; and that all may do as well, I proceed at once to describe the ground over which I have traveled, and tell how it is done.

https://bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Offline The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2022, 06:52:16 pm »
From Doolittle's Scientific Queen Rearing;

At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable "Yankee questions" - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?

In nothing more than in Queen-Rearing, can we see the handiwork of Him who designed that we should be climbing up to the Celestial City, rather than groveling here with a "muck-rake" in our hands (as in "Pilgrim's Progress"), trying to rake in the pennies, to the neglect of that which is higher and more noble. There is something in working for better Queens which is elevating, and will lead one out of self, if we will only study it along the many lines of improvement which it suggests. I do not believe that all of life should be spent in looking after the "almighty dollar;" nor do I think that our first parents bustled out every morning, with the expression seen on so many beekeepers' faces, which seem to say, "Time is Money" The question, it seems to me, in regard to our pursuit in life, should not be altogether, "How much money is there in it?" but, "Shall we enjoy a little bit of Paradise this side of Jordan. However, being aware, of the general indifference to Paradise on either side of Jordan, I will state that I have made Queen-Rearing pay in dollars and cents, having secured on an average about $500 per year therefrom, for the past five years; and that all may do as well, I proceed at once to describe the ground over which I have traveled, and tell how it is done.

https://bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm
Ha!  I particularly love this line.   :happy:

These next quotes are from an article about Italian bees by Rev. George Kleine.
Quote
It is nothing more than a differently colored variety of our well-known common apis mellifica
I find this alternate scientific name for European honey bees during this time period sometimes.  My guess is that there was a motion to change the species name from mellifera, "honey-carrying" in Latin, to the more accurate mellifica, "honey-making".  Even Linnaeus realized his mistake in naming honey bees Apis mellifera, but it was apparently too late to change it by the time he realized the error.  The attempted correction from this time period apparently didn't stick.   

Quote
Dzierzon also gives it as the only reliable criterion of the genuineness of a queen, that her royal daughters, fecundated by an Italian drone, produce Italian workers exclusively.
Based on this and several similar quotes from this issue, it seems that at this time, apiarians thought that queens only mated with a single drone during her mating flight. 

This last quote is from an advertisement at the end of the journal.
Quote
We have stated elsewhere, that a copy of the "Bee Journal," a copy of the "Farmer and Gardener," and a copy of either the "Year Book of the Farm and Garden" or of "Both Sides of the Grape Question" will be send for "One Dollar and Fifty Cents."
What are both sides of the grape question?  For that matter, what is the question?  :cheesy:
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2022, 07:43:29 am »
The "grape" question I believe was whether bees would pierce the grape to get the juice.  A.I. Root did some experiments in this regard I think.  Isaac Hopkins refers to them in his Australasian Bee Manual.  Short version, Root put some bees in a box with some intact grapes where the only recourse the bees had to stave off starvation would be to suck the juice out of the grapes.  They did not.  They starved and the grapes were untouched.  Root's contention was that if you saw bees working grapes with the skins damaged it was because the yellow jackets or the birds had first pierced the skin.

If there was any other question concerning grapes it was whether or not bees were required or even advantageous to getting a crop.  The conclusion was that they were not.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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salvo

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2022, 09:07:33 am »
Hi 15,


It appears to me that it was the title of a book written in 1860

https://archive.org/details/bothsidesofgrape00span/page/n7/mode/2up

I didn't actually see the question though. I'm sure it's in there somewhere. When you find it, please let us all know. :happy:

Sal




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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2022, 09:33:02 am »
Quote
Based on this and several similar quotes from this issue, it seems that at this time, apiarians thought that queens only mated with a single drone during her mating flight. 

I have a question that I think is a fair question concerning this old thinking or thinking of 'that time'. We know the male reproductive parts are detached from the drones body as they mate 'inflight'. Meaning these parts are still attached to the newly mated queen. How long before this part is released from the newly mated queen? During flight? If so, how do we know?
I have seen queens return from their mating flights with this part still intact, (or in place if you will), connected to the queen, left by the mated 'drone' (drone singular).  Doesn't this drone part need to first be removed by nurse or worker bees 'before' she can mate again?
If the old thinking is not correct, and queens mate with multiple drones during a 'single' mating flight, how can another drone mate with her in the 'same' mating flight with this part 'in the way'? Isn't this the very reason why a newly mated queen returns, to be freed of the drone part? Thus allowing her to once again resumes mating, making multiple mating flights until nature decides she is sufficiently mated?

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2022, 09:49:03 am »
The "grape" question I believe was whether bees would pierce the grape to get the juice.  A.I. Root did some experiments in this regard I think.  Isaac Hopkins refers to them in his Australasian Bee Manual.  Short version, Root put some bees in a box with some intact grapes where the only recourse the bees had to stave off starvation would be to suck the juice out of the grapes.  They did not.  They starved and the grapes were untouched.  Root's contention was that if you saw bees working grapes with the skins damaged it was because the yellow jackets or the birds had first pierced the skin.

If there was any other question concerning grapes it was whether or not bees were required or even advantageous to getting a crop.  The conclusion was that they were not.

This makes sense to me as I do not think bees have 'pinchers' or pinchers sufficient to make a hole in the grape skin?

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2022, 11:34:36 am »
Hi 15,


It appears to me that it was the title of a book written in 1860

https://archive.org/details/bothsidesofgrape00span/page/n7/mode/2up

I didn't actually see the question though. I'm sure it's in there somewhere. When you find it, please let us all know. :happy:

Sal
Hey, that's it!  That's awesome, Sal!  After reading the introduction, I think we are just taking it too literally.  I think that the book simply has two different essays by two different authors expounding on their methods for growing grapes, along with an essay from a third author about classification and varieties of grapes.  It's not so much answering a particular question, as just presenting the reader with two different philosophies. 

The "grape" question I believe was whether bees would pierce the grape to get the juice.  A.I. Root did some experiments in this regard I think.  Isaac Hopkins refers to them in his Australasian Bee Manual.  Short version, Root put some bees in a box with some intact grapes where the only recourse the bees had to stave off starvation would be to suck the juice out of the grapes.  They did not.  They starved and the grapes were untouched.  Root's contention was that if you saw bees working grapes with the skins damaged it was because the yellow jackets or the birds had first pierced the skin.

If there was any other question concerning grapes it was whether or not bees were required or even advantageous to getting a crop.  The conclusion was that they were not.

I've seen evidence to support this.  I have a blueberry farm almost right next door to my house, and late in the summer there are often bees down there sucking out the juice from bruised fruit.  I've seen honey bees, and bumbles too, examine a blueberry for holes, and if there aren't any, fly off and try another. 

Quote
Based on this and several similar quotes from this issue, it seems that at this time, apiarians thought that queens only mated with a single drone during her mating flight. 

I have a question that I think is a fair question concerning this old thinking or thinking of 'that time'. We know the male reproductive parts are detached from the drones body as they mate 'inflight'. Meaning these parts are still attached to the newly mated queen. How long before this part is released from the newly mated queen? During flight? If so, how do we know?
I have seen queens return from their mating flights with this part still intact, (or in place if you will), connected to the queen, left by the mated 'drone' (drone singular).  Doesn't this drone part need to first be removed by nurse or worker bees 'before' she can mate again?
If the old thinking is not correct, and queens mate with multiple drones during a 'single' mating flight, how can another drone mate with her in the 'same' mating flight with this part 'in the way'? Isn't this the very reason why a newly mated queen returns, to be freed of the drone part? Thus allowing her to once again resumes mating, making multiple mating flights until nature decides she is sufficiently mated?

Phillip
Here is what Mark Winston has to say on the subject (I had to edit out some of the graphic biological words, since our filter won't allow them): "The bulb of the endophallus and/or coagulating mucus are left behind in the queen, and this plug is called a 'mating sign'.  It . . . does not prevent subsequent copulations as drones . . . can push it aside.  A queen returning from a successful mating flight generally is carrying the mating sign of the last drone to mate with her, and the workers which greet her lick the sign with their tongues and eventually remove it with their mandibles."
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2022, 12:41:53 pm »
Quote
It . . . does not prevent subsequent copulations as drones . . . can push it aside.  A queen returning from a successful mating flight generally is carrying the mating sign of the last drone to mate with her, and the workers which greet her lick the sign with their tongues and eventually remove it with their mandibles."

Thank you Reagan for your answer. Is this the extent of Marks' explanation? Mark may be correct; Then again he may not. lol He has left room for more questions.  😊
Let us reason further.
I have seen pictures of mating drones and queens in flight. Never have I seen a picture of a drone mating with a pushed aside 'plug' in place. (Not saying such picture evidence does not exist). If Mark is accurate in this, what happens to the plug which was pushed aside? Will it remain? In theory it should.... Because if the second drone is successful in mating he will become unattached as well, not only leaving the first plug in place, but leaving a second plug as well.  Is there a picture of a multiple plugs on a returning queen in existence? I have never seen such a picture; Nor have I personally witnessed two 'plugs' on a returning queen in one flight.
 
I am not disputing Mark but I am questioning his explanation. I am not convinced as of yet. Isn't that one of the beauties of Beemaster Forums? A place where we can discuss and ask such questions. Thank you Reagan for your patience with my questions.

Phillip
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2022, 03:10:33 pm »
Quote
It . . . does not prevent subsequent copulations as drones . . . can push it aside.  A queen returning from a successful mating flight generally is carrying the mating sign of the last drone to mate with her, and the workers which greet her lick the sign with their tongues and eventually remove it with their mandibles."

Thank you Reagan for your answer. Is this the extent of Marks' explanation? Mark may be correct; Then again he may not. lol He has left room for more questions.  😊
Let us reason further.
I have seen pictures of mating drones and queens in flight. Never have I seen a picture of a drone mating with a pushed aside 'plug' in place. (Not saying such picture evidence does not exist). If Mark is accurate in this, what happens to the plug which was pushed aside? Will it remain? In theory it should.... Because if the second drone is successful in mating he will become unattached as well, not only leaving the first plug in place, but leaving a second plug as well.  Is there a picture of a multiple plugs on a returning queen in existence? I have never seen such a picture; Nor have I personally witnessed two 'plugs' on a returning queen in one flight.
 
I am not disputing Mark but I am questioning his explanation. I am not convinced as of yet. Isn't that one of the beauties of Beemaster Forums? A place where we can discuss and ask such questions. Thank you Reagan for your patience with my questions.

Phillip
I think Mr. Winston's choice of words there may be poor.  I see many other articles describing it as the next drone removing the previous drone's mating sign, not merely pushing it aside.  I'd assume both pushing aside and removal probably occur, as the drones are obviously trying to get the job done as quickly as possible, by whatever means possible.  Winston lists three sources for that bit of information in his bibliography, but unfortunately, two of the three papers are not in English, and the third one is not available online that I could find.  But if I just search articles about honey bees mating, I get a lot of references like this one, https://www.thoughtco.com/sexual-suicide-by-honey-bees-1968100 , which contains this quote:
Quote
The next drone removes the previous drone's endophallus and inserts his, mates, and then dies as well. 
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2022, 05:35:57 pm »
Each drone removes the previous mating sign. I?m pretty sure the 2 spikes are used to remove the previous drones sex parts. They are also used to hold it in place. Once inserted, the pressure is increased until the it pops and the drone drops to the ground and dies. There have been reports of many dead bees, drones, in parking lots when the it was used as a drone congregation area (DCA). The usual DCA locations are an open area with a high wall of trees or a building.
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2022, 05:59:21 pm »
Thanks to you both. Good stuff! 

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2022, 06:53:33 pm »
Hi Folks,

I've seen videos and stills of several endo-- still in the queen's cloaca:
https://youtu.be/zbzhzVb73kU

https://youtu.be/GqkBGuvPbVA

A few years ago, I spoke at a *non-beekeeper* seminar, for entertainment purposes. That little *talk* went over well, so I use it regularly. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. This is an excerpt:

Eighteen days after the egg destined to become The Queen was first laid, this Virgin Queen emerges from her cell. Her very first job is generally to kill any other potential challengers; an ?Old Queen?, any new Virgin Queens or any Virgin Queens still in their cells. There can be only one Queen Bee in any hive. Our beautiful, strong Virgin Queen, now with her followers, rips open any other queen cells and stings the occupant to death. Her loyal subjects continue to rip down the queen cell and haul the unborn carcass out of the hive. Should another Queen be walking around inside the hive, our Queen hunts her down and they fight to the death of one of them.  This demonstrates to her subjects her suitability to be ?Their Queen?. She now becomes aware of her uncontrollable urges to mate. Where are the men?

About three to five days after emerging, on a sunny day with low wind, the new Virgin Queen will take her ?Nuptial Flight?. She?s on the make. She will find a ?drone congregation area?, a ?DCA? ? a place high in the air, where male (drone) bees from many hives just hang out waiting for Virgins to fly by (sounds familiar). Over possibly several days she will mate with as many as 20 drones in mid-air, gathering as much genetic material as she will need for her entire life (up to six million sperm!).

A drone can only mate once! After the copulation the Queen rips off the drone?s endophallus (his dooey), tosses his dying body to the ground below, and makes way for the next drone. This can happen up to twenty times, until she?s satisfied! This is serious stuff! Oh! She keeps all those dooies!

As this is all going on, back at the hive, her subject bees are Nasonoving, raising their abdomens and fanning their wings. This is done to blow a plume of pheromone out into the air to guide their beautiful Queen home after? you know what. They?re cheering her on.
Well, the now Fertile Queen comes home, a little tired, but glowing, and demonstrates her success by showing all those dooies to her loyal subjects. The girls are very impressed. Long Live the Queen!

This thread is a bit disjointed, so I guess this is ok.

I'll dig up some old quotes.

Sal


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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2022, 07:42:42 pm »
This thread is a bit disjointed, so I guess this is ok.

I'll dig up some old quotes.

Sal
No, it's more than okay!  That's the point of this thread.  I don't want it to only be "Everyone post all your old bee quotes here".  If other people want to contribute to it that way, that is fine, but the point was for the discussion to spiral off from the quotes.   
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2022, 07:28:53 am »
A few corrections:

>Eighteen days after the egg destined to become The Queen was first laid, this Virgin Queen emerges from her cell.

Generally 16 days, in hot weather 15 days.  In cold weather maybe 17 days... not 18 days.

>Her very first job is generally to kill any other potential challengers; an ?Old Queen?, any new Virgin Queens or any Virgin Queens still in their cells. There can be only one Queen Bee in any hive. Our beautiful, strong Virgin Queen, now with her followers, rips open any other queen cells and stings the occupant to death. Her loyal subjects continue to rip down the queen cell and haul the unborn carcass out of the hive. Should another Queen be walking around inside the hive, our Queen hunts her down and they fight to the death of one of them.  This demonstrates to her subjects her suitability to be ?Their Queen?.

She usually doesn't go after the old mated queen, just the virgins.  The old queen often is still there months later.

>About three to five days after emerging

Well, somewhere between 3 and 21 days... but usually about 3 to 5.

> on a sunny day with low wind, the new Virgin Queen will take her ?Nuptial Flight?. She?s on the make. She will find a ?drone congregation area?, a ?DCA? ? a place high in the air, where male (drone) bees from many hives just hang out waiting for Virgins to fly by (sounds familiar). Over possibly several days she will mate with as many as 20 drones in mid-air, gathering as much genetic material as she will need for her entire life (up to six million sperm!).

The latest numbers I've heard say up to 40...

>A drone can only mate once! After the copulation the Queen rips off the drone?s endophallus (his dooey), tosses his dying body to the ground below

I wouldn't say she tosses it, but he falls to the ground for sure...

>, and makes way for the next drone. This can happen up to twenty times, until she?s satisfied! This is serious stuff! Oh! She keeps all those dooies!

No, she doesn't keep them any, actually.  She doesn't remove them, but the next drone pulls the last one out and then loses his.  When she gets back the workers remove the last one.

>As this is all going on, back at the hive, her subject bees are Nasonoving, raising their abdomens and fanning their wings. This is done to blow a plume of pheromone out into the air to guide their beautiful Queen home after? you know what. They?re cheering her on.

Maybe they are cheering her on.  Yes they are guiding her back.

>Well, the now Fertile Queen comes home, a little tired, but glowing, and demonstrates her success by showing all those dooies to her loyal subjects. The girls are very impressed. Long Live the Queen!

The last one, yes.  The rest of the "dooies", no.
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2022, 07:01:52 pm »
Thank you Michael.

Next time I speak in front of ad valorum tax professionals I will hand out your eratta sheet. They'll really appreciate your *factual corrections*.  :wink:

It's sorta like PBS vs The Comedy Channel. Alan Dershowitz v F. Lee Bailey.  :smile:

Sal


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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2022, 06:15:27 pm »
ABJ, Vol. 1, No. 2, Feb. 1861

The first article in this edition deals with dispelling the idea that bees other than the queen lay drone eggs.  I found it interesting in this article that the bees that supposedly were the "drone-mothers" are described as "a glossy-soot color, sometimes even coal black" and that these bees had somehow "lost their hair".  The article didn't draw any single conclusion as to the cause of these bees looking like this, since the purpose of the article was simply to prove that these bees are normal workers, and not pseudo-queens who lay only drone eggs, although the author did offer several potential explanations including inordinately humid conditions and robbers who'd been attacked in other hives.  We have modern evidence to indicate that such bees are sick, and some of the author's evidence supports such a conclusion, but I found it interesting that such bees were seen long before varroa, since we often associate these shiny black bees with viruses.  Obviously varroa transmit viruses which results in sick bees, so the link is not surprising, but I think sometimes we forget that there were sick bees before varroa, even if the viruses didn't cause colonies to collapse like they do with varroa today. 
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2022, 06:59:48 am »
>The first article in this edition deals with dispelling the idea that bees other than the queen lay drone eggs.

https://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm#multiple

Well, actually bees other than the queen DO lay drone eggs.  Certainly not ALL the drone eggs, but they lay ONLY drone eggs.  A queenright hive has about 50 or so laying workers in it who lay nothing but drone eggs...

See page 9 of "The Wisdom of the Hive"

"Although worker honey bees cannot mate, they do possess ovaries and can produce viable eggs; hence they do have the potential to have male offspring (in bees and other Hymenoptera, fertilized eggs produce females while unfertilized eggs produce males). It is now clear, however, that this potential is exceedingly rarely realized as long as a colony contains a queen (in queenless colonies, workers eventually lay large numbers of male eggs; see the review in Page and Erickson 1988). One supporting piece of evidence comes from studies of worker ovary development in queenright colonies, which have consistently revealed extremely low levels of development. All studies to date report far fewer than 1 % of workers have ovaries developed sufficiently to lay eggs (reviewed in Ratnieks 1993; see also Visscher 1995a). For example, Ratnieks dissected 10,634 worker bees from 21 colonies and found that only 7 had moderately developed egg (half the size of a completed egg) and that just one had a fully developed egg in her body."

If you do the math, in a normal booming queenright hive of 100,000 bees that's 70 laying workers. In a laying worker hive it's much higher.

So while some of the ideas (hairless bees being the ones laying nothing but drones) may or may not be true, there are bees in the hive that are not the queen who lay nothing but drones...

Interestingly, Huber writes about the hairless black bees (published in 1814) and assumes they are from somewhere else.  Actually they were probably either robbers from another hive who have had their hair pulled by the guard bees, or bees suffering from a virus.  Either way, Huber observes that they are not allowed in the hive by the guard bees.
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2022, 11:24:38 am »
>The first article in this edition deals with dispelling the idea that bees other than the queen lay drone eggs.

https://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm#multiple

Well, actually bees other than the queen DO lay drone eggs.  Certainly not ALL the drone eggs, but they lay ONLY drone eggs.  A queenright hive has about 50 or so laying workers in it who lay nothing but drone eggs...

See page 9 of "The Wisdom of the Hive"

"Although worker honey bees cannot mate, they do possess ovaries and can produce viable eggs; hence they do have the potential to have male offspring (in bees and other Hymenoptera, fertilized eggs produce females while unfertilized eggs produce males). It is now clear, however, that this potential is exceedingly rarely realized as long as a colony contains a queen (in queenless colonies, workers eventually lay large numbers of male eggs; see the review in Page and Erickson 1988). One supporting piece of evidence comes from studies of worker ovary development in queenright colonies, which have consistently revealed extremely low levels of development. All studies to date report far fewer than 1 % of workers have ovaries developed sufficiently to lay eggs (reviewed in Ratnieks 1993; see also Visscher 1995a). For example, Ratnieks dissected 10,634 worker bees from 21 colonies and found that only 7 had moderately developed egg (half the size of a completed egg) and that just one had a fully developed egg in her body."

If you do the math, in a normal booming queenright hive of 100,000 bees that's 70 laying workers. In a laying worker hive it's much higher.

So while some of the ideas (hairless bees being the ones laying nothing but drones) may or may not be true, there are bees in the hive that are not the queen who lay nothing but drones...

Interestingly, Huber writes about the hairless black bees (published in 1814) and assumes they are from somewhere else.  Actually they were probably either robbers from another hive who have had their hair pulled by the guard bees, or bees suffering from a virus.  Either way, Huber observes that they are not allowed in the hive by the guard bees.
Sorry, poor phraseology on my part.  What I should have said was, "dispelling the idea that the queen does not lay drone eggs".  That's interesting information from Seeley and Huber though.  I wonder how often those worker-laid drone eggs actually grow to full term adults. 
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2022, 06:45:35 am »
> I wonder how often those worker-laid drone eggs actually grow to full term adults.

A good test would be how often do you find drone comb above the excluder.  Not often.  But then the egg police might be more likely to remove them if they aren't in the brood nest proper.
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2022, 12:37:37 pm »
Quote
The Origin and Nature of Honey Dew  In the annual report, for 1855-6, of the Royal Agricultural and Industrial School, of Landau, in the Palatinate, Mr. Th. Gumbel communicates the following results of the investigations made by him respecting the origin and nature of honey dew.
This was a doozy of an article.  As the author has enumerated his points, I'm going to quote them one by one and leave my blow-by-blow reactions underneath each.  Buckle up!  :grin:

Quote
1. Honey dew always makes its appearance when particular species of plants have developed their blossoms.
Okay.  Not true of pine honey, but whatever.

Quote
2. The ripe pollen-dust falls not only on the stigma of the blossom, but is generally in large part scattered on the leaves and other succulent portions of the plant, as well as on those of neighboring plants.
A bit of a broad generalization, but not untrue for many plants.

Quote
3. If the pollen-dust thus scattered becomes exposed to dew, it will rapidly produce a carposma.  This term designates a peculiar vegetation of the pollen-grains, in consequence whereof, from a portion of them, which were already contained in various forms and sizes in the anthers, a gummy-granular substances exudes.  Others produce so-called pollen-tubes; and others again generate within themselves, mature and extrude, still more diminutive grains.  What the original pollen-grains thus undergo in this three-told manna, is in turn undergone by the young brood also.  The ultimate result is a mixt mass of pollen-grains and successive generations of brood cells, which finally decompose and disappear as cellules resembling yeast cells or mould sporules. 
What????  Could this make any less sense?  :grin:  This guy is German, so maybe the translation is partially at fault for making this so terribly wordy. 

Quote
4. If this carposma be brought under influences more than simply propitious to its development, a luxuriant growth is superinduced; and the cellules, instead of undergoing decomposition are converted into so-called mycelium filaments, and are then capable of originating fungous organisms
:cheesy:  I think this guy needs to be introduced to the KISS method.  So if you have pollen grains appearing to decompose and then grow something that looks like a fungus, I wonder what could be happening?  Could it be that it's just decomposing and growing a fungus?  :shocked:  No, that's not unnecessarily complicated enough to be correct.  :wink: :grin:

Quote
5. When the carposma has been formed in a globule of dew, it fixes and retains by its vegetative power, the humid atmospheric depositions; and we have the phenomenon of honey dew in the proper sense of the word, as a clammy substance dropping from leaf to leaf.
 
Hahaha!  :cheesy:  I'm just dying of laughter by this point!  This sounds like the scientific discoveries made by Laputa in Gulliver's Travels!  It's nothing but huge words and sentences making something very simple very complicated.

Quote
6. Honey dew as found on the leaves of plants, is precisely similar to the nectar of flowers, which, as in the cup-shaped sepals of the Linden, does not exist already when the blossom expands, but is produced only after the pollen-dust has fallen into them and been changed to carposma.
Uh-huh.  Sure.  :wink: :cheesy:

Quote
7. In the honey gathered by the bees, the carposma producing it--that is, the pollen-grains of the species of plants from which it was gathered--may readily be traced.
Which doesn't require any of this himming and hawing with "carposmas". 

Quote
8. Honey dew proper is not the product of apides, which have commonly bee supposed to secrete and extrude it as a saccharine matter, covering therewith the foliage of the plants and trees.
:shocked: Oh no!  He makes this blanket claim, and then doesn't even back it up.  He just states it as fact without any proof! 

This article continues in a similar manner for 17 points, during which the author continually maintains that the more obvious and simpler answer CANNOT be the right one, because his experiment supposedly PROVES it.  It's funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same.  I can think of some modern scientific publications who are slave to the same fallacies.  :grin:

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2022, 07:15:35 am »
I think he's just trying to make people accept honey dew, which is less likely if they think it's aphid poop...

« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 09:06:28 am by Ben Framed »
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2022, 09:07:05 am »
I think he's just trying to make people accept honey dew, which is less likely if they think it's aphid poop...

Maybe so?  :grin: 
People might more readily accept 'honey dew 'honey' if they examine, and can 'accept' honey itself, which is made from 'regurgitated' bee nectar! - WHAT?  :shocked: lol
 
From Live Science:
"When a honeybee returns to the hive, it passes the nectar to another bee by 'regurgitating' the liquid into the other bee's mouth. This regurgitation process is repeated until the 'partially digested' nectar is 'finally' deposited into a honeycomb."




Food for thought:
Some; may knock certain bee 'products' made by the bees themselves, until they try them,,  lol.. While others may praise certain bee products when they do try them.
See the topic:
"Cotton Honey, A Taste Of Texas"
<<on: June 01, 2020, 06:42:31 pm >>

What is the old saying about bees? "The Bees know best!" lol
Does this include the product made from Honey Dew which is widely know and accepted by the description of 'honey dew 'honey'
Do bees really know best? Some may argue, 'honey dew is not honey' because its not made from nectar as such.
Yet the 'bees' process this sweet 'product of nature' in the same manner they process honey made from nectar.

Thought the definition of 'honey' and 'honey dew 'honey' may be written otherwise, do the bees care what books say on this subject of honey dew? lol..

Phillip

PS
What is milk? What is cheese? What are eggs? Whoops, other subjects! lol.... 
:wink: (all in fun).....

« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 09:47:22 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2022, 11:25:33 am »
I think he's just trying to make people accept honey dew, which is less likely if they think it's aphid poop...

Maybe so?  :grin: 
People might more readily accept 'honey dew 'honey' if they examine, and can 'accept' honey itself, which is made from 'regurgitated' bee nectar! - WHAT?  :shocked: lol
 
From Live Science:
"When a honeybee returns to the hive, it passes the nectar to another bee by 'regurgitating' the liquid into the other bee's mouth. This regurgitation process is repeated until the 'partially digested' nectar is 'finally' deposited into a honeycomb."

:cheesy: So true!  This article from Honey Bee Suite comes to mind. https://www.honeybeesuite.com/is-honey-made-from-bee-vomit-sure-why-not/

PS
What is milk? What is cheese? What are eggs? Whoops, other subjects! lol.... 
:wink: (all in fun).....
Cheese is a loaf of milk.  :wink:  :cheesy:
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2022, 11:38:05 am »

Quote
The15thMember
Cheese is a loaf of milk.  :wink:  :cheesy:

 :grin: :cheesy: :wink:  Yep!!!
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

anything