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Online The15thMember

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Old ABJ Quotes
« on: October 15, 2022, 07:08:56 pm »
Someone a while ago posted a link to a website that has old editions of the American Bee Journal (and lots of other cool old stuff that is out of copyright) available to read for free.  I can't find the original post, but whoever it was, thanks again, because I've been having fun printing them out and reading them.  Here's the link again, for anyone who is interested.   https://www.survivorlibrary.com/index.php/8-category/13-library-bee%20journal%20(american)

I thought it might be fun to post any good quotes I find as I'm reading.  Some are funny, some are educational, some are just historically interesting.  This will be a sporadic thing, as I'm only allowed to print out one issue per cartridge of ink, but I figured it'd be a cool way to generate some discussion. 

American Bee Journal, Vol. 1, No. 1, Jan. 1861

Quote
In conducting this Journal, our aim will be to promote bee culture as a systematic practical pursuit, based on established principles and ascertained facts.  In furtherance of this object, while we invite and will give scope to full and free, yet temperate and courteous discussion, we shall unreservedly, as occasion may require, express our own views and convictions--striving to place before the reader, the information requisite for intelligent judgment, on any topic that may claim attention or deserve notice.

This first quote is from the introduction to the first issue, and I love the way it's phrased.  I've gathered from reading some of the articles that this is a time period when a lot of information about the lives of bees is just starting to be discovered.  There is a lot of hearsay, speculation, and old wives tales about bees that are passed around as factual, but are starting to be found untrue by some of the world's leading apiculturists, mainly through experiments with the newly available Italian bees.  Langstroth's moveable frame hive was patented almost 10 years ago, and through exposure to working the bees with this new technology, many are able to really interact with their bees for the first time in ways that skeps or "common hives" (hives with boxes but no frames) never afforded.  The journal in its first several issues is striving to set the facts as they are now known before the average beekeeper, systematically discussing many of the things we now take for granted that we know about honey bees. 

Quote
Who divides these workers thus into two distinct classes (foragers and house bees)?  Who orders this subdivision of their labors?  Who inspires one portion with home-keeping propensities, and directs their attention to domestic duties; and impels the others to roam abroad for supplies and provide stores for autumn and winter?  HE, who framed their bodies and infused their instincts.  Their actions are not the result of reflection and choice, but of those innate impulses with which THE CREATOR has endowed them.  What they do, they do unbidden, impelled thereto by an inborn industry actuated by different predilections, and assuming different tendencies at different stages of life, yet co-working, from first to last, for the common good.

I love the 1860s.  :happy:  I love how during this time period, you weren't practically required to be an atheist to be a scientist.  I also love this romantic period in literature, where all writing has an emotional flavor about it, even a subject like this.  Our scientific literature has become extremely sterile, and I love how alive and appreciative the tone is, and how it humanizes even the bees.  I like that I can sense the writer's love for bees through his writing.  It's a feeling that connects beekeepers around the world and through all time periods.     

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Offline Bill Murray

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2022, 09:01:19 am »
Thanks for that link, It will make for some good reading this winter.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2022, 06:20:28 pm »
Quote
This [Langstroth] hive, in its ordinary form, is of the most simple construction; and, together with the frames, may easily be made by any one accustomed to use carpenters' tools.  It can be made of any size or form which experience or experiment shows to be advantageous.  It is opened from above, and any frame may be removed or replaced at pleasure, so that the beekeeper has perfect control of the combs and the bees.  The mode of managing it and performing with it any operation required can be learned without difficulty.  Nor is there any conceivable advance or improvement in bee culture, to which it is not completely adapted.
 
It's rare for someone to predict a particular invention is the end all, fix all for a problem and for that prediction to turn out to be true.  Even today, 170 years later, the Langstroth hive is still the standard of beekeeping, and virtually unchanged from its original construction. 

Quote
There are three German adages with run thus:
1. Bees, sheep, and angle-rod, be sure,
Will make thee quickly rich--or poor!

2. Sheep, doves, and bees, (nought surer,)
Will make thee nor richer nor poorer!

3. Keep plenty of bees and sheep,
Then cozily lie down and sleep!

In the kingdom of Bavaria, over 200,000 hives of bees are kept, according to the official returns made to the government; and these, it is stated yield and average annual profit of 75 per cent. on investment.  In view of this result, a late German writer thanks there is rather more truth in the last of these adages than in the first two. 
I thought this was funny.  It seems beekeepers' constantly differing opinions also extend to the economics of beekeeping!  :cheesy:
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

salvo

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2022, 06:31:35 pm »
Hi 15,

WOW! Excellent recommendation and link.

I know what you mean about *...holding something that you're reading*. I miss paper. Can you *Save* the PDF, or *Print to PDF*? or *Cute PDF*?  It might save both paper and ink.

I just saved the first volume to a folder in my desktop.

Sal

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2022, 06:41:56 pm »
Hi 15,

WOW! Excellent recommendation and link.

I know what you mean about *...holding something that you're reading*. I miss paper. Can you *Save* the PDF, or *Print to PDF*? or *Cute PDF*?  It might save both paper and ink.

I just saved the first volume to a folder in my desktop.

Sal
I have it saved to my desktop too, just for easy access.  I just really prefer reading from something in my hands, not only because I just prefer it, but I also like to be able to highlight, make notes, take it with me outside, and just pull it off the shelf for easy reference.  I know I could probably figure out ways to do all that digitally, but I'd rather not.  :grin: 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

salvo

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2022, 09:52:28 pm »
An Oldie from 1869.

Does Bee-keeping Pay?

C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. 1869

 If you are in doubt upon that point, I suggest that you turn over the leaves of my record for 1869. It is the record of one much more truly a "novice" in these matters, than the experienced and enthusiastic correspondent who wears that name in the columns of the Bee Journal.

My stock in trade for the spring of 1869 consisted of two old box hives almost destitute of honey, with few bees in each; about fifty frames of empty combs from Langstroth hives; and any required amount of interest in the subject.

I began feeding syrup in March, using the inverted can with perforated screw top; fed plentifully till flowers came, using for each hive 5 lbs. 8 oz. of coffee sugar.

Between June 11th and 28th, each of these stocks threw off four good swarms, which were duly cared for in Langstroth hives, with a fair allowance of empty comb as a start in housekeeping.

From the two prime swarms I removed the honey boards a few days after hiving, placing one set of surplus boxes directly on the frames.

July 8th, I hived a large swarm that came to me. Instead of two, there were now eleven stocks.

The wet weather kept up a constant succession of clover blossoms; pastures and commons were white and sweet until late in September. But, "into each life some rain must fall," and just here came in my reverses.

Not looking for any further increase of stocks, I left home for a few weeks. During my absence one prime swarm threw off a large colony (Aug. 13), which not being properly cared for, deserted soon after hiving. On my return I found a third swarm infested by worms, and broke it up. (N. B. ?I plead guilty to carelessness in the use of old comb.) August 25, the same hive that had distinguished itself twelve days before, sent out a fair second swarm, which was secured, receiving the last of the old combs, and a full frame of brood and honey from the parent stock. That was the end of swarming.

I took something over 210 lbs. of surplus honey. 100 lbs came from the top of one prime swarm. Enough of this was sold at thirty cents per pound, to amount to fifty dollars. My eleven hives were all heavy, ready with some protection for out of door wintering.

Does bee-keeping pay ? Have I answered the question?

This result was obtained in an old fashioned way. Given, a season equally favorable, with all the "modern improvements,"?Italian bees, a "melextractor," etc., etc. and what might not be expected?

But my record fails to show what constituted really the largest share of the summer's profits. I did not know how to put it in figures. The still bright hours when, with shawl spread upon the grass, I was at home among my bees?those  ?singing masons building roofs of gold" ?loving them just as much when they paid friendly visits to my wrapper, my hands, or my hair, as As when they kept at a greater distance ; the health which came with those hours ? the delight afforded by a most fascinating branch of natural history?the new ideas, whose value the future must determine?all this is beyond the reach of arithmetic.

Success to the Journal, and may it number more and more women among its subscribers and constant readers !* C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. Aye, and allow us to add correspondents to the enumeration, for they always succeed admirably both as writers and apiarians. Ecce supra/ ?Ed.

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2022, 12:09:27 am »
An Oldie from 1869.

Does Bee-keeping Pay?

C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. 1869

 If you are in doubt upon that point, I suggest that you turn over the leaves of my record for 1869. It is the record of one much more truly a "novice" in these matters, than the experienced and enthusiastic correspondent who wears that name in the columns of the Bee Journal.

My stock in trade for the spring of 1869 consisted of two old box hives almost destitute of honey, with few bees in each; about fifty frames of empty combs from Langstroth hives; and any required amount of interest in the subject.

I began feeding syrup in March, using the inverted can with perforated screw top; fed plentifully till flowers came, using for each hive 5 lbs. 8 oz. of coffee sugar.

Between June 11th and 28th, each of these stocks threw off four good swarms, which were duly cared for in Langstroth hives, with a fair allowance of empty comb as a start in housekeeping.

From the two prime swarms I removed the honey boards a few days after hiving, placing one set of surplus boxes directly on the frames.

July 8th, I hived a large swarm that came to me. Instead of two, there were now eleven stocks.

The wet weather kept up a constant succession of clover blossoms; pastures and commons were white and sweet until late in September. But, "into each life some rain must fall," and just here came in my reverses.

Not looking for any further increase of stocks, I left home for a few weeks. During my absence one prime swarm threw off a large colony (Aug. 13), which not being properly cared for, deserted soon after hiving. On my return I found a third swarm infested by worms, and broke it up. (N. B. ?I plead guilty to carelessness in the use of old comb.) August 25, the same hive that had distinguished itself twelve days before, sent out a fair second swarm, which was secured, receiving the last of the old combs, and a full frame of brood and honey from the parent stock. That was the end of swarming.

I took something over 210 lbs. of surplus honey. 100 lbs came from the top of one prime swarm. Enough of this was sold at thirty cents per pound, to amount to fifty dollars. My eleven hives were all heavy, ready with some protection for out of door wintering.

Does bee-keeping pay ? Have I answered the question?

This result was obtained in an old fashioned way. Given, a season equally favorable, with all the "modern improvements,"?Italian bees, a "melextractor," etc., etc. and what might not be expected?

But my record fails to show what constituted really the largest share of the summer's profits. I did not know how to put it in figures. The still bright hours when, with shawl spread upon the grass, I was at home among my bees?those  ?singing masons building roofs of gold" ?loving them just as much when they paid friendly visits to my wrapper, my hands, or my hair, as As when they kept at a greater distance ; the health which came with those hours ? the delight afforded by a most fascinating branch of natural history?the new ideas, whose value the future must determine?all this is beyond the reach of arithmetic.

Success to the Journal, and may it number more and more women among its subscribers and constant readers !* C. S. Rogers. Elmwood, III. Aye, and allow us to add correspondents to the enumeration, for they always succeed admirably both as writers and apiarians. Ecce supra/ ?Ed.

:happy:  I love this!  This is exactly what I'm talking about!
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2022, 08:02:17 am »
From Doolittle's Scientific Queen Rearing;

At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable "Yankee questions" - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?

In nothing more than in Queen-Rearing, can we see the handiwork of Him who designed that we should be climbing up to the Celestial City, rather than groveling here with a "muck-rake" in our hands (as in "Pilgrim's Progress"), trying to rake in the pennies, to the neglect of that which is higher and more noble. There is something in working for better Queens which is elevating, and will lead one out of self, if we will only study it along the many lines of improvement which it suggests. I do not believe that all of life should be spent in looking after the "almighty dollar;" nor do I think that our first parents bustled out every morning, with the expression seen on so many beekeepers' faces, which seem to say, "Time is Money" The question, it seems to me, in regard to our pursuit in life, should not be altogether, "How much money is there in it?" but, "Shall we enjoy a little bit of Paradise this side of Jordan. However, being aware, of the general indifference to Paradise on either side of Jordan, I will state that I have made Queen-Rearing pay in dollars and cents, having secured on an average about $500 per year therefrom, for the past five years; and that all may do as well, I proceed at once to describe the ground over which I have traveled, and tell how it is done.

https://bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Online The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2022, 06:52:16 pm »
From Doolittle's Scientific Queen Rearing;

At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable "Yankee questions" - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?

In nothing more than in Queen-Rearing, can we see the handiwork of Him who designed that we should be climbing up to the Celestial City, rather than groveling here with a "muck-rake" in our hands (as in "Pilgrim's Progress"), trying to rake in the pennies, to the neglect of that which is higher and more noble. There is something in working for better Queens which is elevating, and will lead one out of self, if we will only study it along the many lines of improvement which it suggests. I do not believe that all of life should be spent in looking after the "almighty dollar;" nor do I think that our first parents bustled out every morning, with the expression seen on so many beekeepers' faces, which seem to say, "Time is Money" The question, it seems to me, in regard to our pursuit in life, should not be altogether, "How much money is there in it?" but, "Shall we enjoy a little bit of Paradise this side of Jordan. However, being aware, of the general indifference to Paradise on either side of Jordan, I will state that I have made Queen-Rearing pay in dollars and cents, having secured on an average about $500 per year therefrom, for the past five years; and that all may do as well, I proceed at once to describe the ground over which I have traveled, and tell how it is done.

https://bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm
https://bushfarms.com/beesoldbooks.htm
Ha!  I particularly love this line.   :happy:

These next quotes are from an article about Italian bees by Rev. George Kleine.
Quote
It is nothing more than a differently colored variety of our well-known common apis mellifica
I find this alternate scientific name for European honey bees during this time period sometimes.  My guess is that there was a motion to change the species name from mellifera, "honey-carrying" in Latin, to the more accurate mellifica, "honey-making".  Even Linnaeus realized his mistake in naming honey bees Apis mellifera, but it was apparently too late to change it by the time he realized the error.  The attempted correction from this time period apparently didn't stick.   

Quote
Dzierzon also gives it as the only reliable criterion of the genuineness of a queen, that her royal daughters, fecundated by an Italian drone, produce Italian workers exclusively.
Based on this and several similar quotes from this issue, it seems that at this time, apiarians thought that queens only mated with a single drone during her mating flight. 

This last quote is from an advertisement at the end of the journal.
Quote
We have stated elsewhere, that a copy of the "Bee Journal," a copy of the "Farmer and Gardener," and a copy of either the "Year Book of the Farm and Garden" or of "Both Sides of the Grape Question" will be send for "One Dollar and Fifty Cents."
What are both sides of the grape question?  For that matter, what is the question?  :cheesy:
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Online Michael Bush

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2022, 07:43:29 am »
The "grape" question I believe was whether bees would pierce the grape to get the juice.  A.I. Root did some experiments in this regard I think.  Isaac Hopkins refers to them in his Australasian Bee Manual.  Short version, Root put some bees in a box with some intact grapes where the only recourse the bees had to stave off starvation would be to suck the juice out of the grapes.  They did not.  They starved and the grapes were untouched.  Root's contention was that if you saw bees working grapes with the skins damaged it was because the yellow jackets or the birds had first pierced the skin.

If there was any other question concerning grapes it was whether or not bees were required or even advantageous to getting a crop.  The conclusion was that they were not.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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salvo

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2022, 09:07:33 am »
Hi 15,


It appears to me that it was the title of a book written in 1860

https://archive.org/details/bothsidesofgrape00span/page/n7/mode/2up

I didn't actually see the question though. I'm sure it's in there somewhere. When you find it, please let us all know. :happy:

Sal




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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2022, 09:33:02 am »
Quote
Based on this and several similar quotes from this issue, it seems that at this time, apiarians thought that queens only mated with a single drone during her mating flight. 

I have a question that I think is a fair question concerning this old thinking or thinking of 'that time'. We know the male reproductive parts are detached from the drones body as they mate 'inflight'. Meaning these parts are still attached to the newly mated queen. How long before this part is released from the newly mated queen? During flight? If so, how do we know?
I have seen queens return from their mating flights with this part still intact, (or in place if you will), connected to the queen, left by the mated 'drone' (drone singular).  Doesn't this drone part need to first be removed by nurse or worker bees 'before' she can mate again?
If the old thinking is not correct, and queens mate with multiple drones during a 'single' mating flight, how can another drone mate with her in the 'same' mating flight with this part 'in the way'? Isn't this the very reason why a newly mated queen returns, to be freed of the drone part? Thus allowing her to once again resumes mating, making multiple mating flights until nature decides she is sufficiently mated?

Phillip
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online Ben Framed

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2022, 09:49:03 am »
The "grape" question I believe was whether bees would pierce the grape to get the juice.  A.I. Root did some experiments in this regard I think.  Isaac Hopkins refers to them in his Australasian Bee Manual.  Short version, Root put some bees in a box with some intact grapes where the only recourse the bees had to stave off starvation would be to suck the juice out of the grapes.  They did not.  They starved and the grapes were untouched.  Root's contention was that if you saw bees working grapes with the skins damaged it was because the yellow jackets or the birds had first pierced the skin.

If there was any other question concerning grapes it was whether or not bees were required or even advantageous to getting a crop.  The conclusion was that they were not.

This makes sense to me as I do not think bees have 'pinchers' or pinchers sufficient to make a hole in the grape skin?

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Online The15thMember

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2022, 11:34:36 am »
Hi 15,


It appears to me that it was the title of a book written in 1860

https://archive.org/details/bothsidesofgrape00span/page/n7/mode/2up

I didn't actually see the question though. I'm sure it's in there somewhere. When you find it, please let us all know. :happy:

Sal
Hey, that's it!  That's awesome, Sal!  After reading the introduction, I think we are just taking it too literally.  I think that the book simply has two different essays by two different authors expounding on their methods for growing grapes, along with an essay from a third author about classification and varieties of grapes.  It's not so much answering a particular question, as just presenting the reader with two different philosophies. 

The "grape" question I believe was whether bees would pierce the grape to get the juice.  A.I. Root did some experiments in this regard I think.  Isaac Hopkins refers to them in his Australasian Bee Manual.  Short version, Root put some bees in a box with some intact grapes where the only recourse the bees had to stave off starvation would be to suck the juice out of the grapes.  They did not.  They starved and the grapes were untouched.  Root's contention was that if you saw bees working grapes with the skins damaged it was because the yellow jackets or the birds had first pierced the skin.

If there was any other question concerning grapes it was whether or not bees were required or even advantageous to getting a crop.  The conclusion was that they were not.

I've seen evidence to support this.  I have a blueberry farm almost right next door to my house, and late in the summer there are often bees down there sucking out the juice from bruised fruit.  I've seen honey bees, and bumbles too, examine a blueberry for holes, and if there aren't any, fly off and try another. 

Quote
Based on this and several similar quotes from this issue, it seems that at this time, apiarians thought that queens only mated with a single drone during her mating flight. 

I have a question that I think is a fair question concerning this old thinking or thinking of 'that time'. We know the male reproductive parts are detached from the drones body as they mate 'inflight'. Meaning these parts are still attached to the newly mated queen. How long before this part is released from the newly mated queen? During flight? If so, how do we know?
I have seen queens return from their mating flights with this part still intact, (or in place if you will), connected to the queen, left by the mated 'drone' (drone singular).  Doesn't this drone part need to first be removed by nurse or worker bees 'before' she can mate again?
If the old thinking is not correct, and queens mate with multiple drones during a 'single' mating flight, how can another drone mate with her in the 'same' mating flight with this part 'in the way'? Isn't this the very reason why a newly mated queen returns, to be freed of the drone part? Thus allowing her to once again resumes mating, making multiple mating flights until nature decides she is sufficiently mated?

Phillip
Here is what Mark Winston has to say on the subject (I had to edit out some of the graphic biological words, since our filter won't allow them): "The bulb of the endophallus and/or coagulating mucus are left behind in the queen, and this plug is called a 'mating sign'.  It . . . does not prevent subsequent copulations as drones . . . can push it aside.  A queen returning from a successful mating flight generally is carrying the mating sign of the last drone to mate with her, and the workers which greet her lick the sign with their tongues and eventually remove it with their mandibles."
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Online Ben Framed

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2022, 12:41:53 pm »
Quote
It . . . does not prevent subsequent copulations as drones . . . can push it aside.  A queen returning from a successful mating flight generally is carrying the mating sign of the last drone to mate with her, and the workers which greet her lick the sign with their tongues and eventually remove it with their mandibles."

Thank you Reagan for your answer. Is this the extent of Marks' explanation? Mark may be correct; Then again he may not. lol He has left room for more questions.  😊
Let us reason further.
I have seen pictures of mating drones and queens in flight. Never have I seen a picture of a drone mating with a pushed aside 'plug' in place. (Not saying such picture evidence does not exist). If Mark is accurate in this, what happens to the plug which was pushed aside? Will it remain? In theory it should.... Because if the second drone is successful in mating he will become unattached as well, not only leaving the first plug in place, but leaving a second plug as well.  Is there a picture of a multiple plugs on a returning queen in existence? I have never seen such a picture; Nor have I personally witnessed two 'plugs' on a returning queen in one flight.
 
I am not disputing Mark but I am questioning his explanation. I am not convinced as of yet. Isn't that one of the beauties of Beemaster Forums? A place where we can discuss and ask such questions. Thank you Reagan for your patience with my questions.

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2022, 03:10:33 pm »
Quote
It . . . does not prevent subsequent copulations as drones . . . can push it aside.  A queen returning from a successful mating flight generally is carrying the mating sign of the last drone to mate with her, and the workers which greet her lick the sign with their tongues and eventually remove it with their mandibles."

Thank you Reagan for your answer. Is this the extent of Marks' explanation? Mark may be correct; Then again he may not. lol He has left room for more questions.  😊
Let us reason further.
I have seen pictures of mating drones and queens in flight. Never have I seen a picture of a drone mating with a pushed aside 'plug' in place. (Not saying such picture evidence does not exist). If Mark is accurate in this, what happens to the plug which was pushed aside? Will it remain? In theory it should.... Because if the second drone is successful in mating he will become unattached as well, not only leaving the first plug in place, but leaving a second plug as well.  Is there a picture of a multiple plugs on a returning queen in existence? I have never seen such a picture; Nor have I personally witnessed two 'plugs' on a returning queen in one flight.
 
I am not disputing Mark but I am questioning his explanation. I am not convinced as of yet. Isn't that one of the beauties of Beemaster Forums? A place where we can discuss and ask such questions. Thank you Reagan for your patience with my questions.

Phillip
I think Mr. Winston's choice of words there may be poor.  I see many other articles describing it as the next drone removing the previous drone's mating sign, not merely pushing it aside.  I'd assume both pushing aside and removal probably occur, as the drones are obviously trying to get the job done as quickly as possible, by whatever means possible.  Winston lists three sources for that bit of information in his bibliography, but unfortunately, two of the three papers are not in English, and the third one is not available online that I could find.  But if I just search articles about honey bees mating, I get a lot of references like this one, https://www.thoughtco.com/sexual-suicide-by-honey-bees-1968100 , which contains this quote:
Quote
The next drone removes the previous drone's endophallus and inserts his, mates, and then dies as well. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2022, 05:35:57 pm »
Each drone removes the previous mating sign. I?m pretty sure the 2 spikes are used to remove the previous drones sex parts. They are also used to hold it in place. Once inserted, the pressure is increased until the it pops and the drone drops to the ground and dies. There have been reports of many dead bees, drones, in parking lots when the it was used as a drone congregation area (DCA). The usual DCA locations are an open area with a high wall of trees or a building.
Jim Altmiller
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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2022, 05:59:21 pm »
Thanks to you both. Good stuff! 

Phillip
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2022, 06:53:33 pm »
Hi Folks,

I've seen videos and stills of several endo-- still in the queen's cloaca:
https://youtu.be/zbzhzVb73kU

https://youtu.be/GqkBGuvPbVA

A few years ago, I spoke at a *non-beekeeper* seminar, for entertainment purposes. That little *talk* went over well, so I use it regularly. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. This is an excerpt:

Eighteen days after the egg destined to become The Queen was first laid, this Virgin Queen emerges from her cell. Her very first job is generally to kill any other potential challengers; an ?Old Queen?, any new Virgin Queens or any Virgin Queens still in their cells. There can be only one Queen Bee in any hive. Our beautiful, strong Virgin Queen, now with her followers, rips open any other queen cells and stings the occupant to death. Her loyal subjects continue to rip down the queen cell and haul the unborn carcass out of the hive. Should another Queen be walking around inside the hive, our Queen hunts her down and they fight to the death of one of them.  This demonstrates to her subjects her suitability to be ?Their Queen?. She now becomes aware of her uncontrollable urges to mate. Where are the men?

About three to five days after emerging, on a sunny day with low wind, the new Virgin Queen will take her ?Nuptial Flight?. She?s on the make. She will find a ?drone congregation area?, a ?DCA? ? a place high in the air, where male (drone) bees from many hives just hang out waiting for Virgins to fly by (sounds familiar). Over possibly several days she will mate with as many as 20 drones in mid-air, gathering as much genetic material as she will need for her entire life (up to six million sperm!).

A drone can only mate once! After the copulation the Queen rips off the drone?s endophallus (his dooey), tosses his dying body to the ground below, and makes way for the next drone. This can happen up to twenty times, until she?s satisfied! This is serious stuff! Oh! She keeps all those dooies!

As this is all going on, back at the hive, her subject bees are Nasonoving, raising their abdomens and fanning their wings. This is done to blow a plume of pheromone out into the air to guide their beautiful Queen home after? you know what. They?re cheering her on.
Well, the now Fertile Queen comes home, a little tired, but glowing, and demonstrates her success by showing all those dooies to her loyal subjects. The girls are very impressed. Long Live the Queen!

This thread is a bit disjointed, so I guess this is ok.

I'll dig up some old quotes.

Sal


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Re: Old ABJ Quotes
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2022, 07:42:42 pm »
This thread is a bit disjointed, so I guess this is ok.

I'll dig up some old quotes.

Sal
No, it's more than okay!  That's the point of this thread.  I don't want it to only be "Everyone post all your old bee quotes here".  If other people want to contribute to it that way, that is fine, but the point was for the discussion to spiral off from the quotes.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.