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Author Topic: Thickness planer suggestions  (Read 8260 times)

Offline Fusion_power

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Thickness planer suggestions
« on: September 10, 2017, 04:47:58 am »
I have access to an older 12 inch wide Delta 22-540 type 2 portable planer that has been very roughly used.  The knives were badly gapped and dull.  I took them off, made a jig to hold them, and sharpened them with my belt sander.  From looking at them, they had been sharpened before by someone who did not know how to set the proper angle.  I got them back into decent condition and re-installed onto the planer using a homemade depth gauge.  I verified that cuts are at the proper depth and thickness is correct on each side of the board.  My problem is simple.  This planer has difficulty with knots probably because it is only 2 hp.  It also requires 2 passes per side to get the surface smooth and even.  I'd appreciate suggestions of an alternative to meet the following criteria.

1. Plane minimum 12.5 inches wide.
2. Must be able to cut smooth surfaces from rough cut cypress lumber in a single pass per side.
3. Autofeed is preferred, either via internal rollers like this delta planer or an external feed mechanism.
4. Price should be under $1000 if possible.

I would appreciate a good explanation of why you feel a machine is acceptable as well as how many other machines you have trialed.  Experience counts!!!
47 years beekeeping, running about 20 colonies in square Dadant hives.

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2017, 07:35:50 am »
Fusion,
Before trying to buy a new planer, I recommend you buy a new set of blades. I am pretty sure that I could not set a really sharp edge with a sander. I have a tool designed for sharpening my plainer blades and even with that it is difficult to get a good sharp blade.
I have a Ryobi planer and my buddy has an old Powermate that was given to him by a good friends widow. We use the powermate is a 5 HP motor to chunk away bid pieces of wood and the Ryobi
 Is a - HP motor to do a good finish. If we put a new set of blades on the Powermte it probably would do a smoother job.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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Offline divemaster1963

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2017, 09:04:23 am »
I have a old mikita 12 inch planer. yes as jim said get new blades. it will go thru the knots easer. don't add any outside feed tothe planer. it can only cut so deep at the feed speed it ws designed for. I just take more passes with small depthed of cut to not bog it down. why are you wanting 12.5 inch wide? most are only 12 wide. If you want wider cuts you will need to upgrade to the newer models but there is a big price jump from 12 inch two 13 inch. if you want more you will need to go for the comercial grade units that cut 18 inch wide but be ready for sticker shock.
you may want to check out the ecintric cutting heads avialable for 12 inch planers. they have 24-48 carbite cutters and cut smoother and cleaner. they are avilable for almost all models they have a upfront cost but will last longer.


john

Offline Acebird

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2017, 09:24:43 am »
You can't sharpen blades with a belt sander.  The sharpened edge heats up and tempers the edge so the first cut you make it just rolls over or wears instantly.  Even if you had access to a surface grinder it needs to be a "wet one", full bath coolant on the blade while grinding.  The angle is critical.  Too sharp and the edge won't last long, too shallow and the back side of the blade will hit first.
If your threshold is a grand you can't afford a planer that will surface a rough sawn board in one pass.  Keep in mind that rough sawn lumber usually has dirt or sand embedded in the surface and knocks the heck out of tool steel.  An idea situation would be to have a heavy machine take the first cut with carbide blades and a second machine do the finish cut.  The question is how many board ft do you plan on doing?

I will also add that the smoothest cut will happen if you get your blades perfectly set.  A few thousands of a inch makes a difference.
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Offline gww

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2017, 11:07:23 am »
I use a foley-belsaw with a five horse.  I get lots of sniping and have to admit that I have no othe experiance with any other planer.  I do know that in the book it does mention the dryness of the wood making a differrance and the depth of cut.  I could not make funiture with what I get.  I did put some blades from a craftsman plainer on it and they are a bit thinner and were used.  So I can not mention good for smoothness though I will eventually get new blades and try it.  I also rush my wood and it is only air dried and sometimes only for a few months and it should be a few years.  The thing is a monster though and for just thickness planeing for building hives I love it.

If you do buy new blades and it fixes your planer smoothness.  I hope you give an update here cause that might get me off the fence on getting some for myself.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 11:43:00 am »
If the blades don't break and the head can hold them tight enough you should be good.  You can always just use a back up spacer behind the blade and it shouldn't make any difference at all.  The back up spacer does not need to be tool steel.  They should be flat though.
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Offline gww

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 01:13:16 pm »
Ace
if your answer is to me, I have did enough wood through the belsaw with the thinner blades to do 3 cedar shest and maby 15 hives some of which I still have to build (got about 9 done).  I still have the original blades which may have done a bit smoother job but one had a little chip that left a little groove.  I have dreams of touching up the edge on the blades but have a hard time getting motivated when I am still getting good enough for my needs.  Have you ever heard the word procrastination? :embarassed:
Cheers
gww

Offline divemaster1963

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 02:55:28 pm »
Ace
if your answer is to me, I have did enough wood through the belsaw with the thinner blades to do 3 cedar shest and maby 15 hives some of which I still have to build (got about 9 done).  I still have the original blades which may have done a bit smoother job but one had a little chip that left a little groove.  I have dreams of touching up the edge on the blades but have a hard time getting motivated when I am still getting good enough for my needs.  Have you ever heard the word procrastination? :embarassed:
Cheers
gww


you mustt be describing me. :cheesy:
mine have a few nicks also in my blades. bees have not complained yet tho. when i'm doing furniture I'm just have to lightly sand anyhow before finishing.  so it's not a problem.

john

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 04:00:33 pm »
If your blades have a few nicks, you can, on some planers, shift the blades a little bit so that the notches are not in line and the boards will come out a lot smother. This does not work with planers like Ryobi that have alignment tabs that lock the blades in just one place. I have done this on my joiners.
Jim
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Offline gww

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2017, 04:42:48 pm »
Thanks for the advice, I will keep it in mind if I ever have to put the origionals back on.  It would take very little to doll the blades up.  I thought about just buying a new set but thought I would ride it out with the ones I am using just to see how often I might have to buy new if I decide I care enough.  I want good but am such a cheepy and also wonder when I am going to be tired of cutting my own boards.  Someday my log pile is going to be gone and I will have to try and get more trees and I am thinking I might be done then.  I have mostly junk logs left now.  I do have a bunch of band mill blades and so am ready to do more but even if you cut your own lumber, if you build something it still cost money.  I built a 50 by 21 pole barn and it cost twelve hundred with not counting the wood in it.  I have about 20 hives built and maby enough wood drying for ten more and I don't know how far I want to take the hobby.  I want to keep busy but don't want another job.  It is fun though.  My daughter keeps sending me funiture things that can be built but I am so sloppy that I don't like doing too nice of stuff cause I don't feel good at it.

I can not believe how much wood it takes to build anything.  I really like the foley belsaw cause it seems like a monster that does not burn out the motor if you make a small mistake.  That is what happened with the cheap craftsman planer.  As a side note, I was reading about complaints on the grizzly planer on a sawmill site that the rollers that pull the board through leave marks on the board.  They say there are you tube vidios that show this.
Cheers
gww

Offline Acebird

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 05:28:08 pm »
I was reading about complaints on the grizzly planer on a sawmill site that the rollers that pull the board through leave marks on the board.

Sounds like they are running it backwards.  The feed roll should be pushing the stock through and then the cut cleans any marks the feed rollers make.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Fusion_power

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2017, 06:51:12 pm »
When I said "I have access", that means I don't own the Delta 540 planer.  I'd like to get a planer of my own that can do the job with a lot less hassle.  The problem is that the boards are uneven thickness along the length.  They were cut on a bandsaw type sawmill which combined with a few large knots in some of the wood makes me have to run at least 2 passes through the planer to get a smooth surface.  This planer binds the wood if the board thickness varies by more than 1/16 of an inch along the length so it may cut great on one end and then bind before the other end gets through.  So there are two problems, underpowered at 2 hp and the design binds on thickness variations.

I am better equipped than most to sharpen things.  Please presume that I was able to sharpen the blades to sharpness that would shave without burning the steel or removing the temper.  I used a diamond stone to set the edge and get the sharpness I wanted.  I also made a custom jig from wood that allowed me to set the proper angle.  It took 20 minutes per blade to remove enough metal to get rid of the gaps and produce a nice clean flat sharp edge.  I already have a trip planned tomorrow during which I will pick up new blades.  I have to travel a minimum of 60 miles to get to a store that sells them.  If I have to go that route, I will run the wood first pass with the old blades and then put the new blades on for the final smooth cut.

Re setting the blades to ensure thickness across the board is consistent, I used a fine file to make a tool out of soft stainless steel to adjust height.  It is simple to put the blade in and tighten the screws just enough to hold it in place, then use the tool to press the blade down into the slot to the proper depth.  Tighten the screws evenly across the roller and the blade will be even enough to satisfy the most demanding furniture maker.

I stood by the sawmill as the trees were cut and I loaded the wood in the truck unstacking it from the rail cart.  Very little sand or dirt will be on this wood.  That does not mean it is totally clean.  It is a lot cleaner than most rough cut lumber.  I paid 80 cents a board foot which is "dirt cheap" for good quality cypress.  As for why I want a 12.5 inch minimum width planer, it is because I am building Dadant hive bodies that are 11 5/8 inches deep.  I have to purchase lumber 12.5 inches wide to allow for shrinkage while drying.  Even though most of it shrinks below 12 inches, there are a few boards that are a bit wider.  I prefer to get a planer that can handle the extra width without having to run the lumber through a saw first to get it down to 12 inches wide.

I dried this lumber in my greenhouse.  Summer temperatures get up above 120 degrees if I close the door and open only a small vent.  I've had it in the greenhouse four months now.  This wood is under 8% moisture.


If you want to read a bit, google "best thickness planer under $1000"
47 years beekeeping, running about 20 colonies in square Dadant hives.

Offline gww

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2017, 07:32:59 pm »
Fusion
I find that I have to run my boards through min 4 times to get to 3/4 inch.  Some times more cause I get some bowing that I flatten.  I am starting with boards that are about 1/16 under an inch which is thinner then most cut but I don't need both sides of the board perfect when I am planing to thickness.  It takes me probly 3 hours to plane maby 20 boards not counting clean up.  It is still better when building with them cause I used to just build with rough boards but you need more math to make the boxes come out right on inside measurements.  I also get some funk when drying and a little wave some of the time when cutting on the mill.  The planing flattens some of that out to where it is uasable but I still get quite a bit of waste.  I cut my first pine the other day and as long as when it dries the knotts don't want to fall out, I have a feeling I am really going to like pine but I don't have access to many logs and cedar would not grow big enough to get wide enough boards for the type of hives you make.

I have built hives out of about every kind of wood that you can find in MO.  The bees don't seem to mind.

The planing is hard but once the boards are done, it sure makes building nice.  I do not think any of the planers are going to help you in making fewer passes cause I think most of them only take so much off at a time.  I just have worked out a process where I am four turns above the 3/4 inch board I want and I run it through and then make one turn, flip and run through.  Many times the first run will only touch the board in one or two small spots but it is worth it to stay away from getting in a bind. It is just not that quick.

My saw mill is home made and maby I get a little more wave and inconsistancies then a bought mill and cause I am sloppy and good enough is good enough but I bet it is close to the bought mills.

The foley belsaw cuts 12.5 inches and I have had to use the table saw to get some of the boards to fit.  If you buy and price is simular, wider is better.  Also for me, I want a motor that is not intigrated into the machine.  I have burned out a table saw and a jointer motor and a planer motor.  At least on the jointer that was belt driven, I could come up with a motor that would work compared to the other two that the motor had to fit.

Lastly, Big motor good.
Cheers
gww

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2017, 08:13:04 pm »
I was reading about complaints on the grizzly planer on a sawmill site that the rollers that pull the board through leave marks on the board.

Sounds like they are running it backwards.  The feed roll should be pushing the stock through and then the cut cleans any marks the feed rollers make.
Brian,
A lot/most plainers have an in feed roller and an out feed roller.
If the rollers are making marks, they probably need to be cleaned. They can get things imbedded in the rubber or sap can mess them up.
Jim
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2017, 08:19:25 pm »
I have burned out a table saw and a jointer motor and a planer motor.

If you have a joiner you should be using it first.  This makes the board flat and straight not the planer.  The planer makes the board constant thickness.
If I was building furniture I would take three passes with the joiner.  Join one side, flip the board over and join the other side, then flip the board over and join the first side again.  Now pass it through the planer on the second side.  No point in doing any of this unless the board is 12 - 15 percent moisture.  That takes 6 months of stick drying for soft wood or 12 months of stick drying for hard wood.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline Acebird

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2017, 08:25:15 pm »

Brian,
A lot/most plainers have an in feed roller and an out feed roller.
The outfeed roller should not be knurled or grooved it should be flat.  It doesn't really have any pulling force.  It is there mostly to keep the board from bouncing on the bed which happens when the blades are dull.
Let me add there shouldn't be that much pressure on the outfeed.
Brian Cardinal
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Offline divemaster1963

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2017, 08:54:56 pm »
I have burned out a table saw and a jointer motor and a planer motor.

If you have a joiner you should be using it first.  This makes the board flat and straight not the planer.  The planer makes the board constant thickness.
If I was building furniture I would take three passes with the joiner.  Join one side, flip the board over and join the other side, then flip the board over and join the first side again.  Now pass it through the planer on the second side.  No point in doing any of this unless the board is 12 - 15 percent moisture.  That takes 6 months of stick drying for soft wood or 12 months of stick drying for hard wood.

not down here in Ga. I'v dryed pine in 2.5 weeks in air. depennds on heat and humidity

Offline gww

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2017, 09:14:29 pm »
Ace
Here might be what I was referring to, maby not.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,94886.msg1466087.html#msg1466087
I have read all the wood drying things and sometimes it depends on the time of year when you cut but still is a long time.

I sticker and let set untill something makes me use the boards and I am sure I am not mister consistancy but believe I get close enough for my kind of projects.  I have been cutting all my boxes a 1/16 over six and five eigths for a safty margine and the bees don't act like I have hurt thier bee space too bad.
Cheers
gww
Ps
My jointer is only 6 inch and so does not work easily for bee hives.  I did use it on some boards like you say for a swing set.  I will say that for a two inch wide board, the table saw makes it about as smooth as could be ask for if you feed steady.  It is much quicker for me on that size also.

Ps Ps The jointer is great for making my blanks that I cut into side bars for my frames.

Offline divemaster1963

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2017, 09:34:16 pm »
 I have had two of these. lost one in the shop. makes it easy checking moisture content. cheap two with a coupon.

john

https://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67143.html

Offline gww

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Re: Thickness planer suggestions
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2017, 10:10:45 pm »
divemaster
Myself, if I ever made cabnets or inside furnature, I would have no choice but to try harder.  What I find is that I only have so much space to sticker my wood and it took a lot of wood to make that space.  Kinda a circle of use wood so you can cut more wood.   I cut untill my space is full and then start using it.  I do fine once I start using it, if I have to take some from a couple of stacks, it is hard to make myself restack so more wood will fit.  So I use down then try and fill it again and then try and let it sit as long as I can and start the process over.  It is working fine for buildings and bee hives.  I did make 4 cedar chest and a king sized bed head board but only made the head board cause my daughter wanted the rustic look.  I must have hit the boards ok on the head board because unlike the decks I have built with green lumber the boards in the head board seem to have equalized cause they are not shrinking.  I was thinking when I built it I might have to add little strips and make it look sorta like board and batton.

You were at one time going to get a mill cause it is your fault that I built my mill.  I saw you post that you were getting one for xmas and I was running out of free boards that I could scrounge up to build bee hives and so cause of you I built my saw mill.

I don't know if I should thank you or curse you. :grin:
Cheers
gww