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Author Topic: 50/50 Split  (Read 2767 times)

Offline billdean

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50/50 Split
« on: June 16, 2018, 02:15:06 pm »
I had a huge hive this year that just got to big, 8 medium boxes high, 6 to 8 frames of bees in each box. I did an inspection today and found 3 queen cells. I did a 50/50 split on the hive and kept them side by side. I added 2 supers to each new hive. I am not sure were the queen ended up but the queenless hive I would like to combine a double box nuc with it so I don't have to wait for them to make a queen. Doing a newspaper combine I am not sure where to put the nuc. If I put it as the very bottom box on the queenless hive will the returning forager kill the new queen. How would I introduce a fairly big nuc to a big queenless hive and at what point should I do it.

Offline Beeboy01

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2018, 05:11:12 pm »
I would use two or three pieces of newspaper between the boxes with the queen right nuc on the top. Put two or three slices in the newspaper so the bees have an edge to start chewing on while they clean out the paper. If the bottom box needs a queen the bees will accept her right away.

Offline Acebird

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2018, 06:41:12 pm »
I would like to combine a double box nuc with it
What do you mean by double box nuc?
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Offline Acebird

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2018, 06:44:57 pm »
In the case of a swarm situation I would not put either half of the split at the original location.  You want to know for sure which half the queen is in before you combine.  I would also think about dividing that half again when the foragers find the queen side.
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Offline beepro

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2018, 07:23:14 pm »
In my 5 deep nuc hive, I saw 5 cap QCs on last night's inspection.  They're in the upper 4th box.   Instead of making a split like you did and juggling through to
see which one has a laying queen in it, I just put plastic QE between these boxes.   The most top honey super has the frame with 2 QCs and underneath it
has a QE follow by 2 boxes underneath that have 3 QCs with a QE under it and then the bottom box with a mated laying queen.   

Now I just wait one week to see which box has a virgin in it.  Usually when the bees sense the queen's smell they will tear down the cap QCs.   I want to see
if this is doable to get some queens too.  And the cap QCs are rather large almost 1.5" long.   Yippeee!!!!

Offline billdean

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2018, 08:19:49 pm »
I would like to combine a double box nuc with it
What do you mean by double box nuc?

2 5 frame nuc's stacked on top of each other. About 7 or 8 frames of bees

Offline billdean

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2018, 08:55:54 pm »
In the case of a swarm situation I would not put either half of the split at the original location.  You want to know for sure which half the queen is in before you combine.  I would also think about dividing that half again when the foragers find the queen side.

This is the split today. The one on the right was split off from the one on the left. I would not introduce the queen until I find out for sure which side the queen is on. The hive on the left is the original hive in the original spot. I was going to reverse the hives in 3 or 4 days. Have I screw up again?



Offline billdean

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2018, 09:01:37 pm »
In my 5 deep nuc hive, I saw 5 cap QCs on last night's inspection.  They're in the upper 4th box.   Instead of making a split like you did and juggling through to
see which one has a laying queen in it, I just put plastic QE between these boxes.   The most top honey super has the frame with 2 QCs and underneath it
has a QE follow by 2 boxes underneath that have 3 QCs with a QE under it and then the bottom box with a mated laying queen.   

Now I just wait one week to see which box has a virgin in it.  Usually when the bees sense the queen's smell they will tear down the cap QCs.   I want to see
if this is doable to get some queens too.  And the cap QCs are rather large almost 1.5" long.   Yippeee!!!!

How do the drones get out with all those QE?

Offline cao

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2018, 01:02:58 am »
I had a huge hive this year that just got to big, 8 medium boxes high, 6 to 8 frames of bees in each box. I did an inspection today and found 3 queen cells. I did a 50/50 split on the hive and kept them side by side. I added 2 supers to each new hive. I am not sure were the queen ended up but the queenless hive I would like to combine a double box nuc with it so I don't have to wait for them to make a queen. Doing a newspaper combine I am not sure where to put the nuc. If I put it as the very bottom box on the queenless hive will the returning forager kill the new queen. How would I introduce a fairly big nuc to a big queenless hive and at what point should I do it.
When doing a 50/50 split I usually add a little more bees to the split because the foragers will return to the original hive location.  What stage were the queen cells at? open with or w/o larva? capped?  If capped then you could have a laying queen in about 2 weeks.  IMO that's not long to wait.  If you are going to do a newspaper combine I would put it on top as Beeboy01 said.  I would also make sure that they are "queenless".  By that I mean that they have no queen or queen cells or eggs young enough for them to make a queen.  Until then they might not accept they queen from the nuc. 

This is the split today. The one on the right was split off from the one on the left. I would not introduce the queen until I find out for sure which side the queen is on. The hive on the left is the original hive in the original spot. I was going to reverse the hives in 3 or 4 days. Have I screw up again?
Looks like the queen is probably in the left hive or there were a lot of foragers that came home after you made the split or both.  In your situation I would consider splitting again.  It looks like there is enough bees to do it.  If you want to even out the foragers on a split like this you need to put each half an even distance from the original hive location.  If you could move the hive on the left over one spot to the left, the returning foragers will have to decide which hive to go into.

Offline Barhopper

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2018, 08:04:14 am »
When you figure out where your queen is I?d make sure the one that?s going to be raising the queen is in the original location. I believe that a stronger hive will raise a better queen. Good luck!

Offline Acebird

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2018, 09:27:58 am »
Have I screw up again?
You made more work for yourself.  You didn't need two empty boxes on each hive to start.  I would still separate the hives from the original position by 10 ft to make sure the foragers are going to the queen right side.  That only needs to be for a day or two.
Lets talk hypothetical, if you did as I said you would have two hives 5 boxes high.  The next day or two you would see where most of the bees went.  The less populated hive gets the box you put on taken off.
Decision time...
If you want more hives you divide the populous hive again.  If you don't want more hives you take another box off the populous hive and put it on the other.  Then you will have to observe again because you could have transferred the queen.
My choice would be to split again and then start combining to the least populous hive.  There is likely to be queen cells that you could use to start nucs or do away with.  I would lean toward making the nucs in case one of these hives ends up queenless.  You can always shake them out.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:38:33 am by Acebird »
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Offline billdean

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2018, 10:29:15 am »
What I ended up doing yesterday was I gather up 4 frames of brood in different stages from different hives, shook the bees off them. I put a QE on the box to the left with all the bees and set this made up box of brood on top and left it there all night. This morning I slid all the hives to the right, the only way I could go. I took the made up box of brood full of bees and set it in the place of the original hive. I watched the bee for about 1 hour. It seemed to have really confused them but now there are bees coming in and out of all the hives. Hopefully they will equalize some what and all will be good. I still have to figure out which one of the hives does not have a queen and ether combine a nuc with it or let the hive re queen their self. I have 4 nucs ready to go. How had could it be? In 4 or 5 days it should be obvious durning an inspection of both hives.

Offline Acebird

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2018, 11:37:37 am »
In 4 or 5 days it should be obvious durning an inspection of both hives.
Yes, but a lot of work.  If the original 8 box hive was not just boxes stacked up 3 or 4 of them had to be full of honey.  Ugh.  When you do a divide of a hive that large the bees can get pissy for a short period.  Having a larger gap between the divided hives is also less intimidating.  Good luck on this.  I got my fingers crossed that things will work out for the good.
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Offline billdean

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2018, 01:24:54 pm »
In 4 or 5 days it should be obvious durning an inspection of both hives.
Yes, but a lot of work.  If the original 8 box hive was not just boxes stacked up 3 or 4 of them had to be full of honey.  Ugh.  When you do a divide of a hive that large the bees can get pissy for a short period.  Having a larger gap between the divided hives is also less intimidating.  Good luck on this.  I got my fingers crossed that things will work out for the good.

Thanks ace......It is and was a lot of work. I was surprised on how mild this hive was even though it was so big. Now, going back into the queen less hive may be a different story. I understand what you are saying about the larger divide. This was the biggest hive I have ever had. It started as a package last year, came though the winter great and grew like crazy. It was hard to try and keep ahead of that queen. I kept adding more and more comb to that hive trying to keep her laying. Even put in a couple of frames with no foundation in the brood nest to keep her from swarming. She hasn't swarmed yet. Hopefully she keeps laying and I get a few daughter queens off her.

Offline billdean

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2018, 01:36:36 pm »
I had a huge hive this year that just got to big, 8 medium boxes high, 6 to 8 frames of bees in each box. I did an inspection today and found 3 queen cells. I did a 50/50 split on the hive and kept them side by side. I added 2 supers to each new hive. I am not sure were the queen ended up but the queenless hive I would like to combine a double box nuc with it so I don't have to wait for them to make a queen. Doing a newspaper combine I am not sure where to put the nuc. If I put it as the very bottom box on the queenless hive will the returning forager kill the new queen. How would I introduce a fairly big nuc to a big queenless hive and at what point should I do it.
When doing a 50/50 split I usually add a little more bees to the split because the foragers will return to the original hive location.  What stage were the queen cells at? open with or w/o larva? capped?  If capped then you could have a laying queen in about 2 weeks.  IMO that's not long to wait.  If you are going to do a newspaper combine I would put it on top as Beeboy01 said.  I would also make sure that they are "queenless".  By that I mean that they have no queen or queen cells or eggs young enough for them to make a queen.  Until then they might not accept they queen from the nuc. 

This is the split today. The one on the right was split off from the one on the left. I would not introduce the queen until I find out for sure which side the queen is on. The hive on the left is the original hive in the original spot. I was going to reverse the hives in 3 or 4 days. Have I screw up again?
Looks like the queen is probably in the left hive or there were a lot of foragers that came home after you made the split or both.  In your situation I would consider splitting again.  It looks like there is enough bees to do it.  If you want to even out the foragers on a split like this you need to put each half an even distance from the original hive location.  If you could move the hive on the left over one spot to the left, the returning foragers will have to decide which hive to go into.

The queen cells were capped if in fact thats what they were. They were on the very bottom of the frame and when I separated the boxes looking for QC they tore apart. They were way to big for drones but I really can't say for sure what they were but at first I thought they were capped QC. They were capped and there was larva in them.

Offline Acebird

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Re: 50/50 Split
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 09:41:06 am »
came though the winter great and grew like crazy.
Let this stick in your mind because this is my experience.  A overwintered colony that does this is a double divide minimum in my book.  Do the second two or three weeks later.  Eight boxes high is no fun.  What is crazy is the first queen less side might net you more honey if it doesn't loose all its foragers.
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