Beginner Splitting Hives

[dave.j.michel]

Hi Everyone!

I started beekeeping last summer, with 2 hives.  One made it thru the winter very strong, the other did not.  A few weeks ago, I split my overwintered hive, via a walk away split.  The hive that didn't get the queen, made a bunch of queen cells, then a couple weeks later I checked and the queen cells were gone, with no eggs or larvae in the hive.  I added a frame with lots of eggs from the other hive, and a week and a bit later I have a single capped queen cell on that hive. 

I have 2 queen's on order, as I was planning to make 2 more colonies.  The queens will be ready later this week.  I'm now debating whether I should put one queen in my queenless hive, and just make one split, or whether I should roll the dice and make the 2 more splits and see if my queenless hive's queen hatches and mates successfully.  If the queenless hive fails to become queenright, am I ok to recombine one of my small splits back into if needed, or will they kill that queen?

Thanks for any help.

[Robo]

I would requeen and forget about rolling the die with walk away splits.   Looks good on paper until you get burned by it too many times.   Learn the OTS method for the future and let the strong colony with abundance of resources make you quality queen cells.   Emergency cells rarely advance your apiary, especially if you are in the north. 

[Ben Framed]

Welcome to beemaster! Sorry I missed this. How did this turn out for you?

Phillip

[Bob Wilson]

What is the "OTS" method Robo mentioned? I am drawing a blank on that acronym.

[beesnweeds]

"On The Spot" queen rearing started by Mel Disselkoen.

[NigelP]

   Emergency cells rarely advance your apiary, especially if you are in the north. 

If you work it out emergency cells are as no different to normal swarm queen cells. They appear shorter because they are started from the rib of your foundation, whereas swarm cells are started in queen cups that are on top of the foundations cells and therefore appear bigger. Both get plenty of royal jelly.assuming you have the right bees there to make it.

[beesnweeds]

   Emergency cells rarely advance your apiary, especially if you are in the north. 

If you work it out emergency cells are as no different to normal swarm queen cells. They appear shorter because they are started from the rib of your foundation, whereas swarm cells are started in queen cups that are on top of the foundations cells and therefore appear bigger. Both get plenty of royal jelly.assuming you have the right bees there to make it.

Agreed, I think emergency cells are sometimes associated with poor quality because in some emergency situations there isn't always the correct age larva.

[Ben Framed]

   Emergency cells rarely advance your apiary, especially if you are in the north. 

If you work it out emergency cells are as no different to normal swarm queen cells. They appear shorter because they are started from the rib of your foundation, whereas swarm cells are started in queen cups that are on top of the foundations cells and therefore appear bigger. Both get plenty of royal jelly.assuming you have the right bees there to make it.

Agreed, I think emergency cells are sometimes associated with poor quality because in some emergency situations there isn't always the correct age larva.

I have heard it discussed with ideas leaning both ways by some very knowledgeable beekeepers. It is interesting when good folks discuss varying opinions...

Phillip

[Bob Wilson]

I have read up on OTS queen rearing. If you discount all the side issues-- such as using the nucs for increasing the apiary or reassembling them for a super productive honey hive-- then it seems the only real issue is notching the larva cells. Unless all the eggs are on old, hard comb, I don't see why a beek just can't remove the old queen to simulate a swarm, and just let the old hive make their own queen cells by themselves. Then cull them as usual. Perhaps I am missing something. It sounds like an old idea, dressed up and resold as an expensive book.

[TheHoneyPump]

To the OP, and a x2 to Robo comment.

Until you are well established and have a clear program, Buy your queens.
Why?   Because experience says so. 
The details:  A hive made queenless will take close to a month to become queenrite and almost another month after that until the hive population actually starts to grow.  So that is 2 months of essentially nothing productive happening with that hive. All that is IF they do not go laying worker on you and IF are successful at raising a queen to full term and IF she survives the trials and tribulations of mating flights.
Not worth it. As a beginner just buy the queens and enjoy the process of making splits and seeing them progress right away. Save yourself and your bees from the 2 months of stress from going queenless.

Imho, hope that helps.

[NigelP]

Agreed, I think emergency cells are sometimes associated with poor quality because in some emergency situations there isn't always the correct age larva.

Yes you do need to be sure the larvae are of the correct age. When I'm doing vertical splits or nucs I add in a frame/or patch of eggs only from one of my bought in breeder queens. Then I make sure only queen cells developing on that area are used.

[Ben Framed]

I have a question. In a walk away split situation as described in the OP. We know the bees will choose larva themselves which they wish to develop into queen cells. Do they, under normal circumstances, make the mistake of choosing larva that is too old? And if so will the bees tear these older queen cells down before allowed to hatch, leaving the right age larva/queen cells to hatch?

Or; if allowed to stay and remain intact, will they let these older inferior larva queen cells hatch? While allowing these to hatch earlier?  If they were older larva, wouldn't the older, first hatched queens, tear down the rest? Meaning the good or right aged larva/queen cells in waiting to hatch or emerge, if only a day or so different in age?  If so wouldn't this be certain to produce an inferior queen?

Phillip

[Oldbeavo]

Phillip
You are over thinking the situation and underestimating the ability of the bees.
If the queen isn't up to standard then they will supersede the queen pretty quick, and maybe without you even knowing.

[The15thMember]

Do they, under normal circumstances, make the mistake of choosing larva that is too old?

I think the root of all your questions is this one, Phillip, and I think the short answer to it is "no".  If the proper age larvae are available, the bees prefer them over larvae that are too old.  If this were not that case, then this domino effect of always having poor queens which you describe would be true, which it clearly isn't.  Many hives requeen themselves successfully, sometimes even without the beekeeper ever knowing, and they can do so by knowing which larvae out of all the thousands in the hive to select.   

[Ben Framed]

The15thMember
I think the root of all your questions is this one, Phillip, and I think the short answer to it is "no".  If the proper age larvae are available, the bees prefer them over larvae that are too old.  If this were not that case, then this domino effect of always having poor queens which you describe would be true, which it clearly isn't.  Many hives requeen themselves successfully, sometimes even without the beekeeper ever knowing, and they can do so by knowing which larvae out of all the thousands in the hive to select.

Thanks Member I think so too..

Phillip
You are over thinking the situation and underestimating the ability of the bees.
If the queen isn't up to standard then they will supersede the queen pretty quick, and maybe without you even knowing.

Thanks Oldbeavo, I agree If the queen isn't up to standard then they will supersede the queen pretty quick, and maybe without us even knowing it. In reading each post up to the post of my question there were good points made by all.  In the North time is more of a consideration than in many other places. HoneyPumps and Robos' point about long term vs short term placement of a mated queen, vs walkway split, time can be critical. (a vey good point by the way).

Then concentrating on Nigels' post concerning emergency cells and swarm cells, "If you work it out emergency cells are as no different to normal swarm queen cells." I was looking at all possibilities posted so far, and both Pro and Con.
If you and Member are correct, the bees will not make queens from over aged larva, then Nigel may very well be correct in his assesment.
 
Two day old larva or younger chosen by the bees, (the right age larva), 'should' be equally cared for in developing good queens in an emergency situation, just as in swarm cell situations? Making equally good queens? Unless as pointed out by beesnweeds there is not proper aged larva to choose from.  Thanks for y'alls  patience. 


Phillip

[beesnweeds]

I have read up on OTS queen rearing. If you discount all the side issues-- such as using the nucs for increasing the apiary or reassembling them for a super productive honey hive-- then it seems the only real issue is notching the larva cells. Unless all the eggs are on old, hard comb, I don't see why a beek just can't remove the old queen to simulate a swarm, and just let the old hive make their own queen cells by themselves. Then cull them as usual. Perhaps I am missing something. It sounds like an old idea, dressed up and resold as an expensive book.

Ive never tried the whole OTS plan.  Its more than just queen rearing it's also about swarm control, mite control, nuc production, and honey production.  I dont know how well it works.  The idea behind notching the comb is because some older brood frames have layers of cocoons in the cells making it hard for the bees to produce the long shape queen cell.  As NigelP says the queen cells appear to be shorter if the cell is drawn without notching.  I have tried notching a frame in a queen less hive and the bees did make queen cells.

[BurleyBee]

In my short beekeeping experience, I?ve had little success with purchased queens and walk away splits.  For me, learning how to get properly graft and raise your own produces far better queens and far better success rates.  But that?s just me.

[Oldbeavo]

You have to decide when increasing hive numbers whether you are making honey or making bees. It is hard to do both at once in a big way.
You can split a hive by just putting half of it in another box, very quick, one of the boxes will have a queen, the other will make one, so long as each box has some eggs.
One hive with the queen goes on as normal while the other has a 6-7 week lag to start getting more bees. Neither is going to produce much honey for a while but you have doubled your hive numbers. Best done in early Spring when resources are at their peak.
If you take HP's line to add a queen you have to know which one has the queen and add your caged queen to the other. Commercially very sound as the $35 for the queen is soon paid for in 6-7 weeks of honey.

We have had good success with walkaway splits by putting 2 frames of open brood above the QX, then next day take the lid of for a while and more bees will come up from the hive, good shake of bees plus brood frames and then take the nuc to a new location so you don't lose field bees. I think shifting the nuc so as you keep all the bees is the clue to our success.

[Ben Framed]

You have to decide when increasing hive numbers whether you are making honey or making bees. It is hard to do both at once in a big way.
You can split a hive by just putting half of it in another box, very quick, one of the boxes will have a queen, the other will make one, so long as each box has some eggs.
One hive with the queen goes on as normal while the other has a 6-7 week lag to start getting more bees. Neither is going to produce much honey for a while but you have doubled your hive numbers. Best done in early Spring when resources are at their peak.
If you take HP's line to add a queen you have to know which one has the queen and add your caged queen to the other. Commercially very sound as the $35 for the queen is soon paid for in 6-7 weeks of honey.

We have had good success with walkaway splits by putting 2 frames of open brood above the QX, then next day take the lid of for a while and more bees will come up from the hive, good shake of bees plus brood frames and then take the nuc to a new location so you don't lose field bees. I think shifting the nuc so as you keep all the bees is the clue to our success.

> You have to decide when increasing hive numbers whether you are making honey or making bees.

Good points and well taken. When making bees is the choice decided upon, and hives chosen for such, (in my opinion), the use of a double screen dividing board is an added plus. Insuring little to nothing lost, when used properly. We have discussed the advantages of the double screen dividing board recently. This can be utilized in Spring through late Summer.

[Ben Framed]

I have read up on OTS queen rearing. If you discount all the side issues-- such as using the nucs for increasing the apiary or reassembling them for a super productive honey hive-- then it seems the only real issue is notching the larva cells. Unless all the eggs are on old, hard comb, I don't see why a beek just can't remove the old queen to simulate a swarm, and just let the old hive make their own queen cells by themselves. Then cull them as usual. Perhaps I am missing something. It sounds like an old idea, dressed up and resold as an expensive book.

Bob I don't see why that won't work... 'Removing the queen to generate emergency cells'...
However OTS does sound neat. 'Maybe' the difference is' the queen does not have to be removed and the bees will be stimulated into thinking they need to produce superseder cells? (from the notches only?) Instead of having 'emergency queen cells' all over the place when the queen is removed.
So the question; Could it be with the OTS the only new Queen Cells will be found where the notches have been made on 'the frame' and 'accepted as superseder cells' by the hive? 

Phillip