Hello from Northern Illinois

[moebees]

New to Beemaster.  I began beekeeping in 1974 with 2 packages and kept bees for a few years but then got busy with University, Graduate School and an academic career.  Started with bees again last year as I am retired.  I do not use chemicals and run 6 frame deep polystyrene hives.

[Robo]

6 frame deep polystyrene hives.

Lyson, Paradise? 

[moebees]

6 frame deep polystyrene hives.

Lyson, Paradise? 

Both.  Buy going forward I will only add Paradise.

[Robo]

Any issues with burr comb/ comb overdraw in the paradise hives?   I ended up adding a 3/4" board spacer on one side to get them to the correct spacing. I also don't like that the paradise has no bee space above the frames.  The Lyson nucs are so much lower quality that the Lyson 10 frame stuff.  As much as I wanted to like the paradise/superior and lyson,  I've gone back to the beemax line as my favorite.

[moebees]

Any issues with burr comb/ comb overdraw in the paradise hives?   I ended up adding a 3/4" board spacer on one side to get them to the correct spacing. I also don't like that the paradise has no bee space above the frames.  The Lyson nucs are so much lower quality that the Lyson 10 frame stuff.  As much as I wanted to like the paradise/superior and lyson,  I've gone back to the beemax line as my favorite.

I haven't had much trouble with burr comb on the sides of the Paradise which is where I assume you are talking about.  I had just one box last summer that they drew some on the walls.  I line all mine with wood strips to stimulate propolis production and I don't know if that makes a difference or not.  I use both foundationless and PF100.  My only issue is the burr comb between the plastic frames but my understanding is that is true in whatever box they are in. They just weld those frames together.
I am pretty happy with the Paradise.  My two issues with the Lyson are that the bottom box is attached to the bottom board and the boxes are short.  My wooden frames rub on the ends and some boxes I can hardly get them out.  I haven't tried the Beemax because I don't want to mess with 10 frame equipment and the Beemax nuc doesn't really work as a hive body as far as I can tell.  How do you like polystyrene in general?

[Robo]

I have been using polystyrene for about 10 years now and wouldn't use anything else.  I like the Beemax because it is fully compatible with the standard wooden Langsrtoths.  I still use wooden mediums for honey supers.  Although the Beemax nucs don't offer a stackable solution,  wooden boxes work fine on them. I have not found a better wintering solution for nucs than the Beemax.  I regularly overwinter 5 frames nucs here in the Northeast as well as single Beemax deeps and always have surplus in spring regardless of how cold the winter is.  Wooden Lang beekeepers need 2 deeps for winter and still need to feed in certain years.

You may be interested in work being done by Derek Mitchell in the UK on hive insulation -> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z

Here are some of my thoughts and initial results of my testing from last year -> https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php?topic=6688.msg84989#msg84989

And finally a talk I did last November on "Thermodynamics of Beekeeping" (you have to scroll down to find it) -> http://beeimprovement.com/audio-library/

[moebees]

Thanks for all the info.  I will take a look.  I love polystyrene too.  Fitting with woodenware isn't a concern of mine because I don't want to deal with the weight of 8 or 10 frames and I am also trying to follow the Seeley principle of smaller cavity sizes.  Nice to find another poly advocate.  There don't seem to be many of us out there. 

[BeeMaster2]

Welcome to Beemaster Moe.
Jim

[moebees]

You may be interested in work being done by Derek Mitchell in the UK on hive insulation -> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z

Here are some of my thoughts and initial results of my testing from last year -> https://worldwidebeekeeping.com/forum/index.php?topic=6688.msg84989#msg84989

And finally a talk I did last November on "Thermodynamics of Beekeeping" (you have to scroll down to find it) -> http://beeimprovement.com/audio-library/

I have been looking at some of the information you posted here and had a couple of questions.  Is the compatibility with wood boxes the only reason you prefer the beemax or are there any other reasons.  And you can really winter 5 frames without feeding?  Seems amazing. 

I like the idea that winter clustering may be an abnormality of putting bees in thin wood boxes and that it stresses them.  It certainly makes managing food stores difficult both for the bees and the beekeeper.   How does this fit with the notion of many beekeepers (I think Michael Palmer is one of them) that the bees need to be clustered or at least inactive to reduce food consumption? 

The link to the pdf of the constructive beekeeping in the worldwide beekeeping form doesn't work.   And is there anywhere to get full access to the Derek Mitchell paper. 

I'm happy to see someone is actually doing some studies.  I have always thought that hive bodies needed more insulation but I don't have the time or inclination to study it myself.
 
P.S. I listened to the talk on beeimprovement and have to say we are in total agreement about people thinking moisture killed their bees when the moisture came after the fact.  Just wish I could have seen the graphics you were showing to the audience.  But thanks again for the information. You have turned me on to some sites I didn't know about before too.  Can't wait to listen to Kirk Webster's presentation on beeimprovement.

[moebees]

Welcome to Beemaster Moe.
Jim

Thanks Jim.  Glad to be here.

[Robo]

I have been looking at some of the information you posted here and had a couple of questions.  Is the compatibility with wood boxes the only reason you prefer the beemax or are there any other reasons.  And you can really winter 5 frames without feeding?  Seems amazing. 

I wouldn't say it is the only reason, though a big reason.  I think the cost plays a part as well as the bee space.  I have zero issues with burr comb and the removable frame rests make cleaning easier. Don't know if I can articulate all the reasons, but they just work the best for me.   As for nucs, the beemax provides the best insulation,  my experiments show over 80F delta to ambient while the Lyson is a little over half of that.  I haven't had a chance to test the paradise yet,  but I don't think they will come anywhere close either.   Yes,  I can overwinter 5 frame nucs without feeding.

I like the idea that winter clustering may be an abnormality of putting bees in thin wood boxes and that it stresses them.  It certainly makes managing food stores difficult both for the bees and the beekeeper.   How does this fit with the notion of many beekeepers (I think Michael Palmer is one of them) that the bees need to be clustered or at least inactive to reduce food consumption?

I can't speak for particular individuals,  but I believe a good portion of "theories" are based upon justifying one's methods.  A lot of theories seem to have promise based upon what we want the outcome to be.  Screen bottom boards is a great example.  Sounds so good that varroa fall through and can't get back into the hive, right?  This all predicates on fall off rate of mites being significant,  which I have yet to find anyone providing proof of.  Yet millions of people have, at one time, bought into screened bottom boards as beneficial for varroa control.  Fortunately, many folks are going back to solid bottoms.

It would make sense if honeybee hibernated when they went into cluster, but they don't.   To me it simply comes down to honey is used to create heat.  If the bees can retain the heat in the hive,  they burn less honey keeping warm.  Bees don't eat just to eat and do not get fat like we humans who will sit around and eat more calories than we burn.   The simplest analogy is your home.  The better it is insulated the less heating oil you will burn.  Honey is the fuel used to keep them warm.

We need to start understanding what feral bees do, not what beekeepers have been doing for the last century. 

The link to the pdf of the constructive beekeeping in the worldwide beekeeping form doesn't work.   And is there anywhere to get full access to the Derek Mitchell paper. 

I'm happy to see someone is actually doing some studies.  I have always thought that hive bodies needed more insulation but I don't have the time or inclination to study it myself.

I fixed the link to constructive beekeeping -> https://beevac.com/photos/albums/userpics/10001/Ed_Clark_-_Constructive_Beekeeping.pdf
Mitchell PDF -> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=forums&srcid=MTQ1OTYwMzIwNzQ2NzIzNDE4MDcBMDc3NDA4MjkyOTA0MTMzNTYzMDUBUjE0WWxzVU9BZ0FKATAuMS4xAQF2Mg&authuser=0

[Acebird]

To me it simply comes down to honey is used to create heat.  If the bees can retain the heat in the hive,  they burn less honey keeping warm.  Bees don't eat just to eat and do not get fat like we humans who will sit around and eat more calories than we burn.   The simplest analogy is your home.  The better it is insulated the less heating oil you will burn.

The thermodynamics of a beehive is quite different then your home.  The air space in your home is considerably warmer then that of a beehive.  The percent of air infiltration is also much lower in your home (I hope) then that of a bee hive or you would be paying a fortune in fuel.

However I do agree in the case of a 5 frame nuc the hive insulation is important.  The nuc does not have the bee mass that a full size hive has.  The nuc still has to maintain the same core temperature but does not have as many bees to use for insulation.  So anything you can do to the hive in a way of insulating is beneficial.

[Robo]

The thermodynamics of a beehive is quite different then your home. 

That is very true for Langstroth hives in which cooler conditions are forced on the bees.   However my home (and beehives) are much closer to a natural tree cavity that feral bees inhabit. 

If I 'force' warmer conditions on the bees they consume far less honey over winter and build brood up much quicker in the spring.

[moebees]

We need to start understanding what feral bees do, not what beekeepers have been doing for the last century.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! 

 

[Acebird]

If I 'force' warmer conditions on the bees they consume far less honey over winter and build brood up much quicker in the spring.

I would have to see the numbers to make a fair comparison.  I suspect the low consumption has more to do with bee mass of the hive then insulation.  Keeping in mind that a full size hive does not consume a lot of honey when it is cold.  It consumes far more when it is raising brood.  It would take some serious research to determine what honey got consumed for heat and what honey got consumed for growth.