Queens Killing Queens- Who Kills Whom?

[sc-bee]

I have never witnessed a queen killing a queen but have seen workers ball a queen. You can read all kind of things on the web and I have read all kinds of things but my question(s) Who kills who in the honeybee queen world?

-Do just virgins kill? (This is what I have heard.)
-Will virgin queens kill mated queens or do the workers dispose of the mated queen?
-I know virgins kill virgins and tear down cells...
-Will mated queens kill each other?

[eltalia]

G'day S-B.
I have seen home video of queens crawling over capped queen
cells, purportedly stinging the cell.
I am yet to bee convinced that is the action happening.
Long been told by my mentor bees ball queens and tear down
queen cells/cups, I remain agnostic until the day I am shown different by
actual visual observation.
Queens have no say in anything colony related, even selective egg laying.

Let the games begin :-)

Cheers.

Bill

[sc-bee]

Long been told by my mentor bees ball queens and tear down
queen cells/cups,

Bill

Virgins will tear down/open queen cells

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syp58ZrJUSI

[eltalia]

Nope, no banana... sorry :-)
Heard/Seen plenty of that virgin (supposed) queen activity.

Think about the structured physical state of any newly emerged bee,
queens included, to get across this great divide so entrenched
in contemporary colony evolution conclusions.

Cheers.
Bill

[sc-bee]

Nope, no banana... sorry :-)
Heard/Seen plenty of that virgin (supposed) queen activity.

Think about the structured physical state of any newly emerged bee,
queens included, to get across this great divide so entrenched
in contemporary colony evolution conclusions.

Cheers.
Bill

Good I don't eat Bananas.... cause I have no idea where you coming from or going 

[eltalia]

"cause I have no idea where you coming from or going"

No worries, all good :-)

... next!

[follow]

Bill

[little john]

-Do just virgins kill?

  Yes.  As anyone who raises queens knows to their cost - first one out of her queen-cell kills the rest, providing they're able to gain access to them.  That's why we use roller-cages or similar.

-Will mated queens kill each other?

If they're unrelated, yes.  Or at least they'll try to.  That's why multi-queen hives MUST have separators (double-sided screen boards or similar) between them, so that the queens can never physically meet.  They will even try to kill each other through a single queen excluder - as will virgins.  Read the Appendix to Doolittle's 'Scientific Queen Rearing' for confirmation.
LJ

[Michael Bush]

Over the years I've observed a lot that is contradictory about queens and fighting.   Virgin queens are the ones who are out to kill other virgin queens.  They seldom seem to kill laying queens and laying queens never seem to kill virgin queens or any other queens for that matter.  Once they are laying and into that pattern they just keep laying.  I've seen too many mother/daughter hives to believe that virgins want to kill laying queens or that laying queens want to kill anyone.  But occasionally any queen might kill any queen.  It seems to me that in the end a supersedure or a mother/daughter end when the bees stop feeding the old queen, not when the new virgin kills her.

[eltalia]

"Over the years I've observed a lot that is contradictory about queens and fighting."

Now the thread is going places... reality over anecdotal spun from "I was told".
Having owned an OB[1] for better than 10years, and same being only managed by
buildup+swarm=supercede (of the whole colony) I am heavily persuaded to deny
what some repeat adnausem - Queens kill Queens.

I'd add more at this time but currently I am bogged down reading Doolittle, a rather
apt naming, methinks :-)
I reserve judgement only to say right now Doolittle is looking very much like a
an 1800's precursor bLog from the 2017 backyard BK.
Back to reading mode :-)

Cheers.

Bill

--
[1] A livingroom wall mounted hive around five fulldepth foundation sheets long and approx. 40mm deep. Entrance was central at 150X19mm. The viewing window was full hive length plexiglass, shuttered.

[little john]

I'd add more at this time but currently I am bogged down reading Doolittle, a rather
apt naming, methinks :-)
I reserve judgement only to say right now Doolittle is looking very much like a
an 1800's precursor bLog from the 2017 backyard BK.

It's easy to be a smart-arse with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight - but Doolittle (one of the really great names in beekeeping) was breaking new ground, and new ideas, forging new ways of working always present awkward and tough going.  It's very easy for others to then come along afterwards and simply copy what worked and to scoff at what didn't.

After a little thought along the line of what had caused the failure this season, when no failure had occured before, it began to dawn upon me that in my former Experiments I had contracted the lower hive down to eight frames ...

In this latter case the brood came directly, under that part of the queen-excluder running, under the apartment partitioned off with the perforated-zinc division-board, so that when the young queen ran down on the zinc, she and the old queen could get their heads together and try to kill one another, which resulted in the bees worrying the young queen when she was old enough to be recognized as a queen, the same as bees always try to worry virgin queens in the queen nursery after they are two or more days old, as they always do when such nursery is hung in a hive having a laying queen. When younger than this, the bees do not seem to notice them in either place, nor does the young queen try to get below.

In this case it is indeed the bees which kill one of the queens in order to restore harmony - but that's only because one queen cannot kill the other through a QX.

If you want to play at 'Doubting Thomas' - then simply put a dozen ripe queen cells into an incubator and see what happens.  No prizes for guessing the outcome - you'll be left with just the one virgin queen alive ... and there are no bees other than virgins involved in that carnage.

LJ

[eltalia]

I say again...

"I am heavily persuaded to deny
what some repeat adnausem - Queens kill Queens."

It is not possible to control/direct your read, LJ... however as clarification be very sure
no head at this desk is being a "smart-arse" , nor "play at 'Doubting Thomas'". 
The topic - not of my invention - is a legit question and one of a few such
misnomers (?) I would welcome proved, as would the OP no doubt
in sincerity.
I seriously doubt the majority in these forums would wade through the language
Doolittle uses, I am, and whilst I thank you for the quote you are now relying on I am sure
I will find more in context.

As an observation on your reliance I would point out that nowhere in the English language
 does "getting their heads together" translate to murderous intent. Or....?
Likewise I am not certain Doolittle's use of "worrying" / "worry" in the extract you chose is
how today modern English would describe herding, or indeed  an attempt to ball a queen.

The experiment offered is not topical in respect of "Queens Killing Queens- Who Kills Whom?"
as it merely repeats an outcome we all know, or should know.


Cheers.

Bill

[little john]

The experiment offered is not topical in respect of "Queens Killing Queens- Who Kills Whom?"
as it merely repeats an outcome we all know, or should know.

How can it not be topical ?  It's the nearest you're going to get to a controlled experiment - precisely because there are no other bees in the equation - only virgin queens.  Therefore it must be virgins doing the killing - there's no-one else there.

Whether that example can be extrapolated across to a colony in which there are also worker bees is - I would suggest - entirely academic.  Are there any grounds for suspecting otherwise ?  If so, those with doubt must put forward some evidence to support that doubt, not the other way around. Occam's Razor, etc.

I have been working on a beekeeping technique for some years now with very mixed results.  Sometimes it worked well (presumably by chance), sometimes it didn't from day 1.  Rather annoyingly, sometimes it appeared to work, but failed later-on.  By 'decoding' Doolittle (from the conversational-style of writing adopted by many experimental beekeepers of his day), I was able to make an adjustment to the equipment to prevent the killing of multiple queens, and now the equipment works perfectly. So - the problem has been finally solved using the existing "queens kill queens" rationale.  With my beekeeper's hat on (rather than my scientist's), do I really need to search for an alternative explanation ?

I think Isaac Newton put it rather well when he said, "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances." 

LJ

[eltalia]

"How can it not be topical ?"

Lacks relevance LJ... in respect of the thread topic, recognising this quote
sets the form of the question;
"Who kills who in the honeybee queen world?".
Applying Occam(R) the experiment pointed to is more of "survival of the fittest" as there are
 no other influencing factors as implied by the OP's question.
And Mr. Newton?
Issac would use the subjective to explain a shortcut to acceptance in using "appearances", this
methodology is at the core of assumptions.
When widely accepted - as it is/was seen too hard or laborious to prove - we are asked questions
such as the OP poses. The "but why" of an enquiring mind.
Here are two captures of a video where the narrator describes what he was told he would see and
so did see, an assumption the information passed on was true/proven. An Issacism... if you like :-)

http://tinypic.com/r/2u8xwfn/9
http://tinypic.com/r/24zj6ab/9
In fact what he did see was a queen, maybe a virgin, who knows, attacking a newly born worker.
Yet it is there on the record (youtube.com) as  "Virgin queen killing other queens".

https://m.you tube.com/watch?v=6iW5FxyPVYQ

..rip it, freeze frame, and check the jpegs.

Cheers.

Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

"The experiment offered is not topical in respect of "Queens Killing Queens- Who Kills Whom?"
as it merely repeats an outcome we all know, or should know."

Does this text not represent the bias, non objective view that Mr. LJ and others are accused of.  Yes the proposed incubator assay by LJ is revelant to queen killing.  No person knows the exact outcome, "we all know." There are many outcomes such as mortal wounded single survivor dies, therefore all queens expire, we don't even know if the queens hatch until LJ's assay is employed.

Finally consider the bias of to whom this text is directed to, I did not say to whom, another bias, no banana for that one.  Just read, look, consider, question, ponder, and but accept the data.  The data is the data.  Good post LJ and Mr. Bush, noted author, speaker and fellow beek.

[eltalia]

"the data is the data"

Yet there is no data, at least not above that which some derive
from the reading of questionable ancient ramblings and that new
age record YouToob provides, conveniently so, in an age where
WYSIWYG applies, in error, mostly. One example just posted.

Cheers.


Bill

[little john]

... the reading of questionable ancient ramblings ...

That sort of put-down comment is precisely why I said earlier, "It's easy to be a smart-arse with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight ... ".

Those "ancient ramblings" of which you are so dismissive contain the ground-breaking ideas and observations of people who wrote in the style of their day, and who's names are now etched forever within the history of beekeeping.  Have you any idea of how difficult it must have been to start off with almost zero knowledge and painstakingly tease away at one of the Natural World's greatest mysteries, until it gradually began to reveal just a handful of it's secrets ?

I'm not suggesting that you show reverence exactly towards the work of these guys, but just a little appreciation for their efforts might not be such a bad idea - to prevent your posts coming across as being those of an uncouth wiseacre.

Perhaps you would care to confide in us just one original contribution to the craft of beekeeping that you yourself have made, in order that we may compare this with the inconsequential ramblings of Doolittle, Langstroth, Dzierzon, Huber, and all the rest ...

LJ

[Acebird]

first one out of her queen-cell kills the rest,

Nothing like a good cat fight!  I suspect it is the crowd that cheers them on like in most cases.

[Robo]

OK folks,  let me remind you of our forum by-laws.

RULE 2) BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.


Some of the discussion here is getting marginal and I don't want to have to lock this thread.   It is OK to agree to disagree without raising the level to be confrontational.   A lot of it has to due with the choice of wording used,  so please think before posting.

[eltalia]

Thanks Robo.

:thumbs_up:

Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Yes Sir.  Thanks for the friendly reminder.

[sc-bee]

OK folks,  let me remind you of our forum by-laws.

RULE 2) BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.


Some of the discussion here is getting marginal and I don't want to have to lock this thread.   It is OK to agree to disagree without raising the level to be confrontational.   A lot of it has to due with the choice of wording used,  so please think before posting.

Geeze Robo when I saw your name ....I thought you were going to tell me your thoughts on the original post    I have just sit back and listened because bananas give me gas and I have dealt with enough smart arse the last few weeks at work.....

So any thoughts on the question, "Who kills whom",  not already expressed? So far, what I think I have gathered from the useful part of this thread is (1) All queens can/will kill at times (2) Usually however it, is a virgin involved...

[eltalia]

(edit)
So any thoughts on the question, "Who kills whom",  not already expressed? So far, what I think I have gathered from the useful part of this thread is (1) All queens can/will kill at times (2) Usually however it, is a virgin involved...

Question, SB.
Are you going somewhere else with the original question, or am I guilty
of reading more into this statement (below) then the above now brings into focus.
"I have never witnessed a queen killing a queen but have seen workers ball a queen. "

There is little doubt queens kill, that video I took apart clearly shows a queen
killing.... regardless of the erroneous assumption made by the BK
building the footage. However workers kill also.
I read your question as which, where, when, in respect of both workers and queen (s)
in any stable colony.
I have that wrong?
As you now address only queens, and as a nonspecific outcome in colony direction, I can
only agree with your conclusion as it has long been known it is rare for a laying queen, or
aged/inefficient queen to kill anything. The workers simply denying her that privilege.
A virgin queen on the other hand is a colony's future and so is maybe not so controlled.

To address the recommended reading from LJ... I thank LJ for the insight
and shall address the body of work in a new topic elsewhere.
Being close to completing a read I lean towards my original comment being justified. I trust
those who have read the work would contribute to that new topic.

Cheers.

Bill

[sc-bee]

I thought it was just a simple straight forward question... maybe I complicated it by asking several questions?

I have read ..... only virgin queens do any killing of other queens and I was wondering if this were true or if indeed a mated queen would ever kill any other queen. I think MB and LJ gave a pretty good descriptions. And no I have never seen any queen killing anything/ anywhere. I have seen workers ball a queen.

Somewhere, what I thought was a simple question went Bananas, I think about reply 3 

"Think about the structured physical state of any newly emerged bee,
queens included, to get across this great divide so entrenched
in contemporary colony evolution conclusions. "
Seriously???

I am no newbee and sometimes a straight forward answer without trying to impress..... is impressive 

Cheers
SC



.

[Acebird]

then simply put a dozen ripe queen cells into an incubator and see what happens.  No prizes for guessing the outcome - you'll be left with just the one virgin queen alive ... and there are no bees other than virgins involved in that carnage.

Off topic ...  What is the trick that breeders use to prevent this from happening?  It is my understanding that a virgin can kill another still in its cell.

[Michael Bush]

> So far, what I think I have gathered from the useful part of this thread is (1) All queens can/will kill at times (2) Usually however it, is a virgin involved...

That's a good start.  I think also usually the virgin is killing a virgin and not a virgin killing a laying queen.  Workers also can kill a queen, but usually do not.  Usually they ball her but don't kill her.  Sometimes they ball her long enough to kill her.

What I have observed:

Virgin queens running from one another.
Virgin queens killing virgin queens.
Virgin queens killing queen cells.
Workers killing queen cells.
Workers killing laying queens.
Workers killing virgin queens.
Two laying queens laying side by side on the same comb.

What I have never seen, but may or may not happen:
Laying queen attacking a laying queen.
Laying queen attacking a virgin queen.
Laying queen attacking queen cells.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

"Two laying queens laying side by side on the same comb."

Mr. Bush, How did you determine both queens were laying queens and not mated mother, virgin daughter?

[herbhome]

This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, guys!
 If I may, the question that hops up in my mind is this. If the laying queen is not likely to attack the virgin queen, why do queenright hive queen rearing schemes call for an excluder?
 Perhaps it is from an overabundance of caution or is it simply to keep her footprint pheromone out of the cell building area?

[Michael Bush]

Neither was a virgin as they were both caught in the act of laying.   I'm reasonably certain they were mother and daughter, though I can't know that for sure.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

"This is a very interesting thread. Thanks, guys!
 If I may, the question that hops up in my mind is this. If the laying queen is not likely to attack the virgin queen, why do queenright hive queen rearing schemes call for an excluder?
 Perhaps it is from an overabundance of caution or is it simply to keep her footprint pheromone out of the cell building area?"

I use an excluder to prevent a queen from destroying queen cells. Queen in bottom deep, queen cells in upper chamber separated from laying queen by excluder.  Blessings

[BeeMaster2]

As far as I can determine, to put this in a brief statement:
Virgin queens , if allowed by the bees, will kill every queen cell and every virgin queen in the hive.
Once the queen is mated, then the bees, mostly the older ones, will kill any queen that attempts to move into a hive. They will do this by balling the queen and then tear the wings and legs off.
I have found that if a swarm tries to move into another hive then some of the bees of each hive will protect their queen by balling it to keep the opposing bees from killing their queen and the strongest hive will eventually kill the opposing queen. Within 3 days the winning queen will start laying.

Jim

[Michael Bush]

> If I may, the question that hops up in my mind is this. If the laying queen is not likely to attack the virgin queen, why do queenright hive queen rearing schemes call for an excluder?

The nurse bees will likely tear down the cells if they think they don't need them for any reason.  Especially if they haven't pupated yet.  You need the cells in a position where they are unlikely to tear them down.  Putting the cells far enough away from the queens pheromones is the point.

[eltalia]

What Michael said, and also to restrict the newest queen from leaving the box.
Though some run top AND bottom entrances -- an error of management in my view.

Cheers.

Bill

[herbhome]

Thanks Michael and Bill,

That makes a lot of sense.