bee clusters

[animal]

Umm ... should I be doing something here ?

They've been in this 5 frame box for less than a month after being poisoned... had no idea whether there was a queen or not...
stopped by the house to pick up some tools and saw this. (Saw a couple empty queen cells on the comb but none that were occupied when I put them in the box)  Clusters at the door and at the top.

Is this a sign of a queen or queens ready to go off and mate and come back ? They don't like their digs and about to leave ?
Should I be looking for queens and trying to capture one of these groups to put in another hive ?

Seen them cluster up at the door or on other spots, but not in 2 large distinct groups. Well, to me they look large; but I don't even know what "large" would actually be.

Sorry, me stoopid, dunno what to do , or if I should do anything.

[The15thMember]

First of all, don't panic, these are NOT large groups of bees, and tight clustering like this doesn't look like imminent swarm or absconding prep to me.  As you say, some bearding at the door is normal for hives in certain conditions (warm nights, rainy weather, crowded hive, etc.), but the clustering at the roofline there is a little odd.  What were those bees doing?  Were they moving around or just hanging onto each other?  If they were moving around, how would you describe their movement? 

Other related questions: Is this hive very full of bees?  Have you checked for brood lately?   

Pro tip: If you ever have a cluster of bees and you'd like them to move or disperse so you can see what they are clustering around, you can just gently sort of poke/pet/scoot them with either your finger or a stick, and they should move away enough for you to see what, if anything, they are on.  Do be aware if you try this with guard bees who are right at the entrance, they may become defensive. 

[animal]

Thanks much!
I poked the top group a lot and they mostly dispersed and some went over to the other group and crawled inside. the bottom group started going in, flying off in singles, etc.. going back to normal?

The lid is a little askew and there was a gap where they were clustered. Maybe from a cat fight I heard last night? The bees underneath were lined up side by side with their faces in the gap. Others were latched onto the lid with their butts up and other bees were hanging off them. .. not really moving around much (except crawling over each other)

The buzzing from inside the hive is louder and higher pitched than usual ... but I very rarely see/hear them in the middle of the day so I guess that's normal for a hot dry day?

Full? I started with 4 full frames of brood comb in the thing and put a half frame of honey comb in the last frame. All of the frames were completely covered with bees the last time I checked with more walking around inside that couldn't fit on comb.
That was at night ... Yeah I was that goofus doing stuff with them at night.. and also at least 2 weeks ago .. (mostly was just looking for dead ones in the bottom)

Was thinking that maybe I should put them in a full size hive this weekend?
If so, should it just be into a bottom section, or go ahead and put a honey super on top?

[iddee]

Always look inside before questioning. We need to know what it looks like. If all frames are covered in bees and there is brood present, then YES, move them into an 8 or 10 frame hive. Then report back here as to the condition of the 5 frames.

[Ben Framed]

Always look inside before questioning. We need to know what it looks like. If all frames are covered in bees and there is brood present, then YES, move them into an 8 or 10 frame hive. Then report back here as to the condition of the 5 frames.

 ✔️

[animal]

cool. thanks! 
sorry about jumping the gun on the questions.
will prepare to move them this weekend.

There have always been brood present on 4 frames, still the case. They have repaired breaks in those combs and attached them to the frames.
They have added quite a bit to the 5th comb(about 2/3 - 3/4 full ) and firmly attached it to the top of the frame. If they can crawl on it, they're pretty much covering it... not just combs ..  walls and ceiling too.

I'll get off my behind and wire some comb to frames.. I think I have enough left for 5 deep frames plus at least 5 shallow (maybe all 10 shallow)

[The15thMember]

Thanks much!
I poked the top group a lot and they mostly dispersed and some went over to the other group and crawled inside. the bottom group started going in, flying off in singles, etc.. going back to normal?

The lid is a little askew and there was a gap where they were clustered. Maybe from a cat fight I heard last night? The bees underneath were lined up side by side with their faces in the gap. Others were latched onto the lid with their butts up and other bees were hanging off them. .. not really moving around much (except crawling over each other)

Oh, so they are just using that gap as another entrance.  You had two clusters of bees at two entrances.

cool. thanks! 
sorry about jumping the gun on the questions.
will prepare to move them this weekend.

There have always been brood present on 4 frames, still the case. They have repaired breaks in those combs and attached them to the frames.
They have added quite a bit to the 5th comb(about 2/3 - 3/4 full ) and firmly attached it to the top of the frame. If they can crawl on it, they're pretty much covering it... not just combs ..  walls and ceiling too.

 
This sounds to me like a hive that is ready to be upgraded in space.  When you move them, take a close look at the brood frames and be sure you are seeing both open larvae and capped pupae, and if you can find them, eggs in cells or at least tiny little baby larvae that have just hatched.  That will assure you that you have a laying queen, even if you don't see her.  If they are building comb and their population has grown though, I'd feel pretty confident that you do. 

I'll get off my behind and wire some comb to frames.. I think I have enough left for 5 deep frames plus at least 5 shallow (maybe all 10 shallow)

If you genuinely mean a shallow (meaning a 5 7/8 in. box) I think you can add that straight away, if you'd prefer to just do all the wiring work and give it to them, provided you have nectar coming in (which I'd think you would where you live).  If you mean a medium (a 6 5/8 in. box, a standard super), I'd wait until they have the deep almost drawn out.   

[Ben Framed]

If they are packed wall to wall, including inside walls and top, I'm surprised they have not swarmed already.. (I can't remember whether or not you said the old queen is marked?) And; you have found two recent empty queen cells in this hive?

Phillip

[The15thMember]

And; you have found two recent empty queen cells in this hive?

(Saw a couple empty queen cells on the comb but none that were occupied when I put them in the box)

I am thinking that what he means by this, Phillip, is that he saw queen cups when he did the cutout, but none were charged with larvae.  You didn't see any full-sized queen cells at any point, did you animal?

[animal]

sorry, accidentally double posted trying to edit ..

[animal]

I am thinking that what he means by this, Phillip, is that he saw queen cups when he did the cutout, but none were charged with larvae.  You didn't see any full-sized queen cells at any point, did you animal?

Yes sir. That is exactly what I meant ... and no haven't seen any full queen cells. Only ones I saw were empty and at the time of cut-out.
They are no longer in there because I cut them away when I condensed the hive to the nuc.

No .. don't have a marked queen. I saw the queen a little too late and the vacuum got her. Then, I bumbled things with the collection box(for the vac) ..and released a bunch of them ... Set the hive I built near the cut-out hive and the bees were scavenging honey from the cut-out area, guiding the escapees into my hive, and all going into my hive at night. I was all cocky at that point ..saying the bees were my employees finishing up the clean-up ... and then, dipwad poisoned them...  I condensed them into the "nuc" pictured (that I had built as a trap). cut-out on May 4th. Poisoning was 7th or 8th (I think.)

I had originally just wired big pieces of brood comb (anything that actually had babies of some sort) to frames and those frames went into the 10 frame deep box in the same order as they had originally  been in the cut-out hive (the piece of comb closest to the entrance in the cut-out nest became the one closest to the entrance in my hive .. and so on .. preserved order, which way they faced, and top-bottom) When I condensed them, I saved as much brood comb as possible by cutting out empty comb on 4 frames and jigsawing in pieces from other frames that had baby-bees ... and it ended up with 4 completely filled frames of brood (except for about 3 square inches on one frame). On the #5 frame , I just wired in a piece of honeycomb.
so
Until I do the change-over to yet another hive ... and examine things closely with new knowledge you guys have given me ... I don't know the queen situation. .. but I have the testors paint and a plunger&screen thingie ready for that.(fingers crossed)

the gap.. only about 1/16" or less .. a little wad of propolis holding it up at the corner ... maybe it just confused them?

and yes, the shallow box is   5 7/8"

[FloridaGardener]

They will cluster at a gap in the hive so as to control temperature and humidity.

[Ben Framed]

Until I do the change-over to yet another hive ... and examine things closely with new knowledge you guys have given me ... I don't know the queen situation. .. but I have the testors paint and a plunger&screen thingie ready for that.(fingers crossed)

✔️

[JurassicApiary]

Just an opinion, but I would discourage the use of Testors little bottle of paints for marking.  They're oil based and technically considered toxic because of the solvents used in manufacturing the paint mixture.  Per Testors MSDS (varies by color/kit), chemicals contained in the paint that are classified as Hazardous Substances include: Mineral Spirits, Naphtha, Petroleum, Hydrotreated Distillates, Octane & Methyl Ethyl Ketoxime. And we're not talking about tiny fractions of the formulation (there's a reason that stuff sticks to plastic models so well!): It lists the formulation of the paints (e.g. Red) is about 30% Mineral Spirits, 15% Naptha and 15% Hydrytreated Distillates based on weight, plus other ingredients such as Octane and MEK (highly toxic stuff).  Further, the MSDS sheet indicates that "38% of the (remaining) mixture consists of ingredients unknown toxicity.

As you can imagine, it's probably not great for her health to smear this onto a queen.  I too love the thought of Testors and had considered them myself years ago until I did the research on the paint formulation.  It's great for models and plastics and projects (all those chemicals are why it works so well in those applications) but I just don't think it's in the best interest of their health to put it onto queens for marking purposes.

You may review the MSDS sheet here if you wish: https://tinyurl.com/testors

Best wishes with your bee clusters!   Matthew

[Ben Framed]

Thanks for posting this report Matthew..

Phillip