Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed  (Read 10844 times)

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2023, 10:58:55 am »
Would the new foragers have killed the queen?
No, but if the initial die off was caused by robbers it might have started again.
If I assessed a hive as looking good I don't mess with it.
Ok, thanks.  I've never done a position swap before, so I just wanted to be sure.  I haven't seen any robbing since I moved this colony into different equipment, and I have been keeping a close eye on them. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14088
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2023, 01:42:45 am »
Sorry you lost your queen Member..

Phillip

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20364
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2023, 07:25:02 am »
I have seen a queen balled by switching positions.  Usually she doesn't get killed though, but it wouldn't surprise me.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2023, 02:14:07 pm »
This colony made about 8 queen cells.  Obviously I don't need to reduce them to prevent swarming, as the colony is much too small.  I either heard or read somewhere recently about a technique where you take down the first capped queen cells and leave the uncapped ones, since the younger larvae are the last to cap, but are the most desirable for making a queens.  In this situation, would it be a good idea for me to remove the older QCs?  Or would it be better to just let the bees know best and leave all the cells?   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 20364
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2023, 03:37:23 pm »
I never remove queen cells.  The idea is that bees will start with too old of a larvae.  I don't believe that.  Neither did these beekeeping greats:

Jay Smith, from Better Queens
"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.
"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Quinby seems to agree:

"I want new comb for brood, as cells can be worked over out of that, better than from old and tough. New comb must be carefully handled. If none but old comb is to be had, cut the cells down to one fourth inch in depth. The knife must be sharp to leave it smooth and not tear it."--Moses Quinby
C.C. Miller's view of emergency queens
"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller
A study:

David C. Gilley, David R. Tarpy, Benjamin B. Land: Effect of queen quality on interactions between workers and dueling queens in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies

Selection of high-quality queens by the workers during queen development has been demonstrated by Hatch et al. (1999), who found that during emergency queen rearing (the process by which workers rear queens from worker larvae to replace a queen that has died unexpectedly) workers preferentially destroyed queen cells built from older worker larvae. Despite selective behavior by the workers during queen rearing, considerable variation in quality exists among newly emerged adult queens (Eckert 1934; Clarke 1989; Fischer and Maul 1991). This variation in quality among queens gives workers the opportunity to benefit by selecting high quality queens that are fully developed, when the decision will be most accurate.

https://bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm

My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2023, 03:48:50 pm »
I never remove queen cells.  The idea is that bees will start with too old of a larvae.  I don't believe that.  Neither did these beekeeping greats:

Jay Smith, from Better Queens
"It has been stated by a number of beekeepers who should know better (including myself) that the bees are in such a hurry to rear a queen that they choose larvae too old for best results. later observation has shown the fallacy of this statement and has convinced me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances.
"The inferior queens caused by using the emergency method is because the bees cannot tear down the tough cells in the old combs lined with cocoons. The result is that the bees fill the worker cells with bee milk floating the larvae out the opening of the cells, then they build a little queen cell pointing downward. The larvae cannot eat the bee milk back in the bottom of the cells with the result that they are not well fed. However, if the colony is strong in bees, are well fed and have new combs, they can rear the best of queens. And please note-- they will never make such a blunder as choosing larvae too old."--Jay Smith
Quinby seems to agree:

"I want new comb for brood, as cells can be worked over out of that, better than from old and tough. New comb must be carefully handled. If none but old comb is to be had, cut the cells down to one fourth inch in depth. The knife must be sharp to leave it smooth and not tear it."--Moses Quinby
C.C. Miller's view of emergency queens
"If it were true, as formerly believed, that queenless bees are in such haste to rear a queen that they will select a larva too old for the purpose, then it would hardly do to wait even nine days. A queen is matured in fifteen days from the time the egg is laid, and is fed throughout her larval lifetime on the same food that is given to a worker-larva during the first three days of its larval existence. So a worker-larva more than three days old, or more than six days from the laying of the egg would be too old for a good queen. If, now, the bees should select a larva more than three days old, the queen would emerge in less than nine days. I think no one has ever known this to occur. Bees do not prefer too old larvae. As a matter of fact bees do not use such poor judgment as to select larvae too old when larvae sufficiently young are present, as I have proven by direct experiment and many observations."--Fifty Years Among the Bees, C.C. Miller
A study:

David C. Gilley, David R. Tarpy, Benjamin B. Land: Effect of queen quality on interactions between workers and dueling queens in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies

Selection of high-quality queens by the workers during queen development has been demonstrated by Hatch et al. (1999), who found that during emergency queen rearing (the process by which workers rear queens from worker larvae to replace a queen that has died unexpectedly) workers preferentially destroyed queen cells built from older worker larvae. Despite selective behavior by the workers during queen rearing, considerable variation in quality exists among newly emerged adult queens (Eckert 1934; Clarke 1989; Fischer and Maul 1991). This variation in quality among queens gives workers the opportunity to benefit by selecting high quality queens that are fully developed, when the decision will be most accurate.

https://bushfarms.com/beesemergencyqueens.htm
Great!  Less work for me!  :happy:  David Tarpy is actually my state extension apiarist. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14088
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2023, 10:31:34 pm »
This might not be related but you might want to check it out anyway Member.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=19859.msg150715#msg150715

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2023, 01:51:24 pm »
As I mentioned on my swarm thread, I had another hive swarm this morning.  She's one of my favorite queens, and since I'm out of bottom boards, I decided to just combine the swarm with this small, struggling hive.  I put the swarm above them, with my double-screen board in between.  Tomorrow I'll remove the queen cells from the bottom box, give them a few days to get used to each other, and then remove the board.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2023, 06:44:27 pm »
I removed the Snelgrove board today, and I did a quick check for brood in the top section with the queen, and dang it all if there wasn't any!  And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week.  :angry:  I couldn't find the queen either, although I'd seen her when I hived the swarm.  It was pretty chilly and windy today, and the bees were clustery on the frames, so I could have missed her.  Either something happened to her since I saw her last, or this isn't the queen I think it is, and instead she's a virgin who isn't laying yet.  I gave them a frame of eggs from their neighbors so they can make more QCs if they need to.     
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 21284
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2023, 07:00:36 pm »
Quote
And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week. 

Some years ago I got some very good advice (for me) and that was never to remove queen cells.  Let the bees work it out.  I know there are different opinions on this, but bees seem good at making selections and fixing things if we let them. 

The downside might be that a swarmy hive will go with virgin queens, sometimes multiple virgin queens.  My feeling is that a swarmy hive is going to keep swarming no matter what I do. 
The people the people are the rightful masters of both congresses and courts not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it.

Abraham  Lincoln
Speech in Kansas, December 1859

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2023, 08:35:36 pm »
Quote
And I just took down all the QCs in the bottom box last week. 

Some years ago I got some very good advice (for me) and that was never to remove queen cells.  Let the bees work it out.  I know there are different opinions on this, but bees seem good at making selections and fixing things if we let them. 

The downside might be that a swarmy hive will go with virgin queens, sometimes multiple virgin queens.  My feeling is that a swarmy hive is going to keep swarming no matter what I do. 

I've heard that advice before, and while I don't personally abide by it (I leave two queen cells in a hive making a queen usually), I understand it has its benefits.  But in my case, I was combining a queenright swarm with a colony that had capped queen cells.  I had to destroy either the queen or the cells, otherwise the bees would have fought each other. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Ben Framed

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 14088
  • Mississippi Zone 7
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2023, 09:51:37 pm »
- "It was pretty chilly and windy today, and the bees were clustery on the frames, so I could have missed her." 

Yes, Possible

- "Either something happened to her since I saw her last, or this isn't the queen I think it is, and instead she's a virgin who isn't laying yet." 

Another legitimate possibly.
What color is she? Is she a Carmel colored queen, or a tiger striped queen which blends in well with the workers? If the latter, she will be more easily looked over or missed.

- "I gave them a frame of eggs from their neighbors so they can make more QCs if they need to."     

Good idea Reagan. If the queen is not there, as you know, you will have Queen Cells soon. 
Your thoughts on this are sound in my opinion.

Phillip

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2023, 11:15:52 pm »
What color is she? Is she a Carmel colored queen, or a tiger striped queen which blends in well with the workers? If the latter, she will be more easily looked over or missed.
She is a darker queen, although if she is the mated queen I suspect, she isn't typically difficult to spot.  She's very calm and generally doesn't run when I pull the frame she is on.  Ironically her name is Snow White, only because her mother's name was Ravenna (if someone gets that obscure reference, I'll be shocked).  Ravenna was the tamest queen I have ever had; I saw her lay eggs on the frame in my hands multiple times.  I have 5 queens that are descended from her.         
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 21284
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2023, 11:20:42 pm »
She was Italian?   :wink:
The people the people are the rightful masters of both congresses and courts not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it.

Abraham  Lincoln
Speech in Kansas, December 1859

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2023, 12:15:56 am »
She was Italian?   :wink:
:cheesy:  Good guess, but no.  I actually have no idea if she was Italian, although she wasn't colored like an Italian.  She and her colony usurped one of my hives, so I don't know anything about her breeding or where she came from.  I was happy to have her though, she was a far better queen than the one her bees killed.  And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White??  :grin:   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Kathyp

  • Global Moderator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 21284
  • Gender: Female
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2023, 12:23:36 am »
Quote
And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White

You name your queens so...IDK?  And this   :grin:

https://justonesuitcase.com/2014/02/21/snow-white-and-the-seven-dwarfs-in-italy/
The people the people are the rightful masters of both congresses and courts not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert it.

Abraham  Lincoln
Speech in Kansas, December 1859

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2023, 12:41:34 am »
Quote
And why, if she was named after a city in Italy, would I be compelled to name her daughter Snow White

You name your queens so...IDK?  And this   :grin:

https://justonesuitcase.com/2014/02/21/snow-white-and-the-seven-dwarfs-in-italy/
Fascinating.  It is not quite that obscure!  :grin:  If you want another hint, her other daughter is named Freya.
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Occam

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2023, 11:52:59 pm »
Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity

Online The15thMember

  • Global Moderator
  • Galactic Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 5270
  • Gender: Female
  • Traveler of the Multiverse, Seeker of Knowledge
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2023, 12:04:47 am »
Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly
DING-DING-DING!  WE HAVE A WINNER!!  You have just won . . . A NEW CAR!!!  :cheesy:

Bravo!  We had just watched that movie when one of my hives was usurped, so I decided to name the usurper queen after the evil queen, even though the movie wasn't that great.  But then it turned out she became my favorite queen, so the joke was on me!  :cheesy:  Plus now I'm stuck with a line of queens named after Disney princesses, because where else could I go from Snow White!  :shocked: :grin:  Her other daughter Freya is named after Queen Ravenna's sister in the even worse sequel The Huntsman: Winter's War.   
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.
https://maranathahomestead.weebly.com/

Offline Occam

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Gender: Male
Re: Sudden Huge Die-Off; Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2023, 12:11:33 am »
Snow White and the Huntsman, I believe it was 2011? 2012? Around there I'm pretty sure. Charlize Theron played her if I remember correctly
DING-DING-DING!  WE HAVE A WINNER!!  You have just won . . . A NEW CAR!!!  :cheesy:

Bravo!  We had just watched that movie when one of my hives was usurped, so I decided to name the usurper queen after the evil queen, even though the movie wasn't that great.  But then it turned out she became my favorite queen, so the joke was on me!  :cheesy:  Plus now I'm stuck with a line of queens named after Disney princesses, because where else could I go from Snow White!  :shocked: :grin:  Her other daughter Freya is named after Queen Ravenna's sister in the even worse sequel The Huntsman: Winter's War.

I didn't bother with the sequel  couldn't make myself watch it
Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity