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Author Topic: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells  (Read 11137 times)

Online The15thMember

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2022, 01:40:19 pm »
I have worked many "Africanized" hives that were quite workable.  I have seen F1 hybrids between European and Africanized that were vicious and unworkable.  I think bringing in European stock is a bigger risk than keeping the Africanized stock.  If they are hot, requeen.  But local stock will avoid those vicious F1 hybrids.
Wait, I'm not understanding something.  The original Africanized bees were a cross between A. m. scutellata, the East African lowland honey bee, and A. m. ligustica, the Italian honey bee, or A. m. iberiensis, the Iberian honey bee.  How could you possible create an F1 hybrid without there being any pure colonies of scutellata?
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2022, 10:52:32 am »
Any line of bees, however mixed up in the past, eventually establishes an equilibrium.  You can get hybrid vigor with one line of Italians crossed with another line of Italians.  This in fact has been done purposefully in the past with Italians and was called "Starlines".  It's claim to fame was that they found two lines of Italians that when crossed did not bring out aggression (which is the norm in honey bees).  Eventually though it became too hard to maintain the two strains for which this worked and it was abandoned.  The same was done with Caucasians but eventually that was too hard to maintain and they found a strain of Carniolans that they crossed back but again it eventually failed in the long run.  AHB has become it's own "race" at this point.  We really only have that name, AHB, to describe this result.  They are not scuttellata, of course, but a cross.  But if you cross it with any other line of bees you get an F1 cross at the first hybridization.  No one has been able to breed out the scutellata.  The AHB have too many mechanisms to maximize this.  The queens emerge early, and kill any other queens in the hive  The drones fly out early and fly longer, mostly due to cell size since smaller drones can fly longer.  So far trying to insert EHB back into the mix just results in vicious F1 hybrids which then regress back to scutellata traits due the the above and other mechanisms that give those genes mating advantages.  Add in that they make more drones, they swarm and abscond at the drop of a hat and 200 or more years of beekeepers breeding for reproductive disadvantage (less drones, less swarming) and you have a recipe for the scutellata to always come to the top.
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Offline Bill Murray

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2022, 11:39:04 am »
Quote
I have often fixed a hot hive simply by offing the queen and letting them raise a new one.  So I don't agree.
[/b]

This is my standard practice also. I have to agree with Michael on this.


Online The15thMember

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2022, 11:42:07 am »
Any line of bees, however mixed up in the past, eventually establishes an equilibrium.  You can get hybrid vigor with one line of Italians crossed with another line of Italians.  This in fact has been done purposefully in the past with Italians and was called "Starlines".  It's claim to fame was that they found two lines of Italians that when crossed did not bring out aggression (which is the norm in honey bees).  Eventually though it became too hard to maintain the two strains for which this worked and it was abandoned.  The same was done with Caucasians but eventually that was too hard to maintain and they found a strain of Carniolans that they crossed back but again it eventually failed in the long run.  AHB has become it's own "race" at this point.  We really only have that name, AHB, to describe this result.  They are not scuttellata, of course, but a cross.  But if you cross it with any other line of bees you get an F1 cross at the first hybridization.  No one has been able to breed out the scutellata.  The AHB have too many mechanisms to maximize this.  The queens emerge early, and kill any other queens in the hive  The drones fly out early and fly longer, mostly due to cell size since smaller drones can fly longer.  So far trying to insert EHB back into the mix just results in vicious F1 hybrids which then regress back to scutellata traits due the the above and other mechanisms that give those genes mating advantages.  Add in that they make more drones, they swarm and abscond at the drop of a hat and 200 or more years of beekeepers breeding for reproductive disadvantage (less drones, less swarming) and you have a recipe for the scutellata to always come to the top.
I understand.  Thanks for the explanation. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline van from Arkansas

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2022, 10:26:44 pm »
Hello everyone, been a while since my last visit to this forum.

Genetics is a very complex field.  The gentleness of the puerto rican AHB informs me the original DNA primers used to identify africian honey bees has error.  A long story that is beyond this thread.

There may be many, 20 plus(who knows) genes that contribute to aggressive bee behavior.  Also, some genes affect the expression of another gene, thus thousands of combinations are possible for aggressive behavior.  The reason I  use 20 is because that is how many genes control human eye color at my last study.  Just trying to make a point here.

Now consider some well meaning Brazilian/aftician geneticist decades ago discovered a conserved region of DNA unique to the AHB and thus a primer of DNA is born to identify (distinguish) AHB from Italian,  etc.  How do we know this primer is actually linked to aggressive behavior?   Answer is we don't know for sure.  So easy to understand a gentle AHB on an isolated island.  You got the original primer wrong, Buddy, nice try though.

The DNA primer to identify aggressive behavior would be a great help here to truly identify AHB, but remember we still do not know the all the genes involved.

Ok, my hand is going numb, lol, from decades of radiation damage caused by sequencing DNA and identifying conserved regions of DNA used for phenotyping,  So I have to stop texting,,, more later.

Blessing to all.
I have been around bees a long time, since birth.  I am a hobbyist so my answers often reflect this fact.  I concentrate on genetics, raise my own queens by wet graft, nicot, with natural or II breeding.  I do not sell queens, I will give queens  for free but no shipping.

Online The15thMember

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2022, 10:37:12 pm »
Hello everyone, been a while since my last visit to this forum.

Genetics is a very complex field.  The gentleness of the puerto rican AHB informs me the original DNA primers used to identify africian honey bees has error.  A long story that is beyond this thread.

There may be many, 20 plus(who knows) genes that contribute to aggressive bee behavior.  Also, some genes affect the expression of another gene, thus thousands of combinations are possible for aggressive behavior.  The reason I  use 20 is because that is how many genes control human eye color at my last study.  Just trying to make a point here.

Now consider some well meaning Brazilian/aftician geneticist decades ago discovered a conserved region of DNA unique to the AHB and thus a primer of DNA is born to identify (distinguish) AHB from Italian,  etc.  How do we know this primer is actually linked to aggressive behavior?   Answer is we don't know for sure.  So easy to understand a gentle AHB on an isolated island.  You got the original primer wrong, Buddy, nice try though.

The DNA primer to identify aggressive behavior would be a great help here to truly identify AHB, but remember we still do not know the all the genes involved.

Ok, my hand is going numb, lol, from decades of radiation damage caused by sequencing DNA and identifying conserved regions of DNA used for phenotyping,  So I have to stop texting,,, more later.

Blessing to all.
Thank you very much for the information, Mr. Van.  It's always good to hear your opinion on topics of this nature. 
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led.  And through the air, I am she that walks unseen.

Offline Bill Murray

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2022, 10:57:46 pm »
Thank you Van. I hope this discussion can continue. Its important in the long term in my opinion.

Offline Ben Framed

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2022, 03:39:44 am »
Thank you very much for the information, Mr. Van.  It's always good to hear your opinion on topics of this nature. 

Thank you Van. I hope this discussion can continue. Its important in the long term in my opinion.


I wish to thank you also Mr Van! As per Bills wish I am continuing the discussion lol. Im not sure that I completely understood your answer.. As The15thMember I highly regard your opinion as well as the opinions of Mr Bush and TheHoneyPump in most cases. In this case I had placed my confidence in TheHoneyPumps recommendation which I quoted in reply 8. In my opinion his recommendation is supported by the clear guidelines made by the University of Florida on such matters, for beekeepers in the State of Florida in locations effected by The Africanized Honey Bee, namely those recommendations posted in reply 12. (which includes the location of the Original Poster); After all if we can't trust the U of F, perhaps it may be time for me to give up!  lol  :shocked:  :grin:


Phillip


« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 04:13:52 am by Ben Framed »
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14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2022, 06:41:37 am »
>There may be many, 20 plus(who knows) genes that contribute to aggressive bee behavior.

Plus several viruses that contribute to aggression in bees...

Just from observation I have to say that I think some of these are their sense of smell (noticing an alarm), some of these are their reaction to a failing queen (loos of queen pheromones).  I know of no other way to explain why requeening a hot hive often calms them down within a week.  The bees from the previous queen will still be there for a good six weeks minimum and NONE of the new queen's workers have emerged yet.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
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Offline Ben Framed

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Re: requeening many queen right hives using queen cells
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2022, 09:37:33 am »
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I know of no other way to explain why requeening a hot hive often calms them down within a week. 

Mr Bush, no one is disputing or has disputed your method of calming a 'hot hive' nor your suggestion by re-queening in effort to calm that hive down. What has and is being questioned and still seeking to be understood, (at least by me), is your dispute or (non agreement if you will), as to the proper method of re-queening hives in 'mostly Africanized areas' of Florida. The original posters concern followed by the recommendation of TheHoneyPump, backed by The University of Florida. Not only re-queening a hot hive as you suggest but taking it a step further, re-queening with 'European Stock' in "mostly Africanized locations" of Florida, in this case.
 
You stated your reasons for not agreeing with TheHoneyPump. In fairness to TheHoneyPump and the U of F, I attempted to state my reasons for agreeing with each as laid out by the guidelines by the U of F in my reply 12.
 
What is the correct answer? Who is correct? You or the U of F, or even TheHoneyPump for that matter?  lol  I confess I do not know as I wish to agree with each of you but to do so is clearly impossible. So where does it leave me in my understanding as I have attempted to reiterate?
 
As I stated to Mr Van I will repeat to you; If we can't trust the recommendations in reply 12 by U of F, of re-queening in 'mostly africanized locations', with known European Stock, perhaps it may be time for me to give up!  lol  :shocked:  :grin:

Phillip




« Last Edit: July 19, 2022, 10:32:41 am by Ben Framed »
2 Chronicles 7:14
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

anything