Why not try small cell?

[Fox Creek]

  I'm new to beekeeping and I would like to share some thoughts.  The first beekeeping book I read was "The Backyard Beekeeper." I found this to be very informative and decided to try my hand. I ordered four hives from Mann Lake. I contacted Olivarez's Bees in Orland Ca. and reserved four packages.
  While waiting for April to arrive I read "The Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping". Not knowing anything about beekeeping I decided to send for the pf100 and pf120 small cell frames from Mann Lake.
  I started my beekeeping using small cell and no chemicals. My Carniolan bees had no problem building comb on the small cell and the foundationless frames I inserted between built comb frames.
  As of now I have never seen a mite. My hives seems to be doing very well going into winter.
  I have also bought and read, "The Practical Beekeeper" by Michael Bush. I have to say, I'm a believer in natural, no chemical, small cell beekeeping.
  I do not understand why one would resist using the small cell.   
   

[Jim134]

IMHO
http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/documents/m08138.pdf


     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Fox Creek]

Thank you Jim. I read this report awhile back. The debate rages on! As a new beekeeper I decided it would harm nothing to go small cell. So far so good. I guess I will find out. 

[Michael Bush]

After a decade of no Varroa issues at all, I won't go back to large cell...

[BjornBee]

 I'm new to beekeeping and I would like to share some thoughts.  The first beekeeping book I read was "The Backyard Beekeeper." I found this to be very informative and decided to try my hand. I ordered four hives from Mann Lake. I contacted Olivarez's Bees in Orland Ca. and reserved four packages.
  While waiting for April to arrive I read "The Idiot's Guide to Beekeeping". Not knowing anything about beekeeping I decided to send for the pf100 and pf120 small cell frames from Mann Lake.
  I started my beekeeping using small cell and no chemicals. My Carniolan bees had no problem building comb on the small cell and the foundationless frames I inserted between built comb frames.
  As of now I have never seen a mite. My hives seems to be doing very well going into winter.
  I have also bought and read, "The Practical Beekeeper" by Michael Bush. I have to say, I'm a believer in natural, no chemical, small cell beekeeping.
  I do not understand why one would resist using the small cell.  
  

You are gold to those that promote small cell.

Had bees not even one year, and you are a believer in small cell. Great job!

As there are always the next wave of beekeeper coming on board and taking this same position, yes you are right, the battle rages on.

I know many beekeepers who once thought the same way as you. I suggest, before being an advocate for small cell and claiming to be a believer, a bit more time may be required. Even the hardest of die-hard small cell supporters say that regression and getting to the correct genetics, is a several year process. Of course no need for that promotion any more when the new smallcell crowd claims smallcell success with less than a year of beekeeping experience.

Give it some time.  ;) You state you have never seen a mite yet claim smallcell is a success after one summer. I'm surprised even smallcell folks can stand by and seemingly say nothing about that.

Your bees were probably treated prior to getting them. And it is common to have first year hives with little or no mite problems. It hardly can be translated into claiming smallcell success.

Good luck.

[VolunteerK9]

For a little light reading:

http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/personnel/documents/Berry1109.pdf

I've got SC hives, but they had to be treated for mites with all the rest for the past two years.

[D Semple]

I believe the biggest part of success is having a plan and executing that plan.

If you are a beginning beekeeper, you better follow somebodies else plan and not pick and choose the parts you do and don't like till you know what you are doing and can decide for yourself.

If you choose to be treatment free, by all means follow their plan exactly.


To many spoons in the pot ruins the soup regards

Don

[Kathyp]

i agree with above.  my two biggest problems with small cell and "natural", is that 1. small cell foundation tends to be more expensive.  certainly more than my foundationless costs...which is far more natural. (+ i'm cheap!)  and 2. the natural thing tends to be a religion with some people. 

it's right up there with the natural childbirth craze...which didn't last long for a reason  :evil:

no harm in trying a thing, but do it with open eyes.  if you go small cell and think you are not going to have a mite problem, you will probably be disappointed.  if you do it and you are willing to deal with mites, you'll probably be ok.

[deknow]

You are gold to those that promote small cell.

gold?  how does that work?  most of us that "promote small cell" are simply sharing what is working for us.  I'm not sure why that is a problem, or how we are supposed to profit from that...where does the gold come from?

Had bees not even one year, and you are a believer in small cell. Great job!

Generally, people have opinions about things before they try them...are new beekeepers required to have have no opinion about beekeeping?  The poster is hardly claiming expertise and experience...I'm not sure why it's worth jumping down someone's throat for sharing.

...Even the hardest of die-hard small cell supporters say that regression and getting to the correct genetics, is a several year process.

...it would be hard to read our book and Michael's book (as the poster claims to have done) and not realize that.  It's also worth noting that the poster used cheap pf-100 series frames to start his packages on and to regress at the same time.  What did it cost? (not much more than any cheap plastic frame or wooden frame with foundation).  What is the downside? (perhaps harder to spin honey out of smaller cells....anything else?).

The poster isn't any more enthusiastic than any first year beekeeper who is excited about the things they are doing...should we chastise every new beekeeper who talks about how excited they are and tell them they don't know enough yet to share their excitement about being a beekeeper?  Why not?

Of course no need for that promotion any more when the new smallcell crowd claims smallcell success with less than a year of beekeeping experience.

...guess you must be looking for an argument, seeing as the poster didn't claim success.  The poster claimed that the bees built out the PF frames and foundationless frames well.

Your bees were probably treated prior to getting them. And it is common to have first year hives with little or no mite problems. It hardly can be translated into claiming smallcell success.

....and it hasn't been.

deknow

[deknow]

sorry...duplicate post...operator error

[deknow]

For a little light reading:

http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/personnel/documents/Berry1109.pdf

.....light reading if you just read the abstract and the conclusions.  It's difficult to determine what such a study disproves, given that no one who "promotes small cell" would expect any positive results from the protocol used.

For instance, I could claim that I can drive safely on the highway at 55mph.  I would also claim that good visibility is important.

Someone could challenge my claim that I can drive safely on the highway at 55mph....they could ignore my claim that good visibility is important, and they could ignore all the other aspects of my driving habits.  They could then claim that it is impossible to drive safely at 55mph, and "prove it" by crashing the car driving in reverse, with a television on, while they are deep frying mozzarella sticks on the dashboard.

As Bjorn points out, not all claims should be given equal weight.  No one with experience and/or credibility has claimed that no matter what else your practices are, that using small cell comb will help you with mites.  Why would researchers not design a more useful experiment that would actually test the claims made by the most experienced and credible "promoters of small cell"...the claims that motivate the investigations in the first place?

deknow

[BjornBee]

You can break it down word for word if you like. I guess you don't understand that when a kid hits a clutch basket time and time again, and you say something like "That kid is MONEY!" is has nothing to with actual currency. But I guess if I need to explain that one, you missed the "gold comment also.

I question anyone who says they are a true believer of anything after less than a year and is willing to question why anyone else would resist it.

I'm not jumping down anyone's throat. But I do question anyone (you) willing to take a stand on someone questioning success when not one winter or full year has been completed.

I'm reminding the casual reader of this forum that success, and the promotion of anything, in such a short period of time, is questionable.

I'm not upset. I would expect nothing less from a person who promotes smallcell. And I understand that some beekeepers debunks research accomplished on a longer time frame than the OP. I know you did it through the backdoor approach, but planting the seed that enough research has not been done is questionable, especially after you seemingly back up a first time person who "Is a Believer" after such a short period of time.

I remember years ago when I first reported my less than success with smallcell. It was because I didn't do it for three years as I was told. It was for all kinds of reasons. And that is the way it goes. There is always excuses for those saying anything bad about smallcell, but when a person touts success of not finding one mite after a few months of smallcell use, and claims to be a "believer" while questioning why anyone would resists smallcell, is given a free pass.

Shame for even suggesting that this is a good idea. It should send red flags to anyone even listening to those that promote smallcell on such poor criteria.

[Fox Creek]

   Well, I was happy to see I had some responce to my post. Some were helpful and some had advise. Mr. Six Stars ripped into my post like a monkey on a cupcake! At first I thought, "Oh what a fool I am!" Then I realized maybe the poster was a little harsh. Maybe He misrepresented my post. I could hear ax grinding.
    I'm new to beekeeping and made this clear. I have read many beekeeping books. This only means I have knowledge, not experience. I chose to follow the advise given in "The Idiots Guide and Practical Beekeeper." Why? It only made sense. If you start with large cell, you invite the pitfalls I read about. So, as my post stated, Why not try small cell ! What does it harm? The bees built comb just fine. Did I just get lucky? Maybe. As for the mites, I stated, "as of yet", not Never will!
    By the way. If your going to quote me, be accurate and complete. I did not claim success. You quoted me, "the debate rages on!", then ignored the rest of the paragraph where I stated, " So far so good, I guess I will find out!"    

[Sunnyboy2]

As I understand the small cell theory, advocates believe it may help with mites because 1) leads to smaller bees which are harder for mites to stay attached, 2) less room for mite to reproduce in cell.  Any other beliefs on why small cell may help with mite problem?  (Or have I missed the point already?)
As I read the first post, I did not take it as claim of proof about small cell defeating mite. I did take it as antidote to ask the more experienced beeks, "do some of you see a Benifit to using more traditional, larger size cell foundation?"  Do some out there see a down side to small cell?

The post was far from a new beek presuming to teach you experienced folk a thing or to, it was an thread to be taught, to gather opinions about the pros and cons of different cell size.  "Why not small cell"

For me, that is a great question.  I have learned a great deal reading conversations on this site, some going back years. 

So I echo the question, why not small cell?  What are pros and cons?  Why might traditional cell be better.

PS.  We can't be thin skinned.  I personally think a bit of sarcasm can add needed passion to the debate.  But we also need to be sure to not discourage discussion.

[Sunnyboy2]

Also.

Great articals, thanks for posting.

[Jim134]

Do not most of the mites reproduce in cell drone cells :roll:
How small are the drone cells in a small cell hive ??? in millimeters ???




    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

[Bee Curious]

Welcome to the world of passionate beekeepers, Fox Creek.   Don't take anything too personally--we all have our strong opinions here, but there's a wealth of knowledge and experience to learn from. Keep enjoying your bees and keep your ears open for information.

[bbrowncods]

If genetics is one of the keys that will eventually allow the bee to overcome the V mite, then wouldn't it be ironic if its natural cell size is one of the traits that it uses to do so?
But please don't let my experience overly influence anyone.

[Kathyp]

one thing about foundation of any kind is that the bees need to make drones.  some years, they make LOTS of drones.  one of the reasons i like foundationless (besides the being cheap thing) is that they can use whatever space they want for drone cells.  it does seem to cut down on burr comb which i think i nice.

i know this isn't really related to the small cell question....but just an observation that if you really want to do something natural, there is nothing natural about any kind of foundation.

to the question "why not small cell?", there is no reason not to do it.  do what you want, and keep what you like.  i only warn that research does not back the small cell reduces mites thing, and if you think that it will, you will most likely be disappointed.  if you think that it will reduce your mite load and you do not pay attention, you may well lose your bees.

[Vance G]

I bought the mann lake plastic 4.9 mm frames and put nucs on them that were very clean of mites.  I kept looking as they moved off the 5.4  and in the second year having been on the 4.9 mm frames, I found a whopping number of mites.  That is not a scientific study, it is my observation.  I treated with apiguard to knock it down.  This does not make me angry at 4.9 which I got cheaper than I could put together a wood frame with any foundation.  The bees after being habituated to them draw them as well as any foundation and I have tried several over the years.  It costs me nothing to have tried the small cell if I decide later there are no benefits culturally.  They are good servicable frames so I can't understand the vitriol.  Eat some prunes out there for God sakes!  It will change your outlook.