F150 Lightning gets the thumbs down by one owner.

[Acebird]

The people who suffer most when gas prices are high are poor people.

And that wouldn't happen if we were not beholding to oil companies.  Gas guzzlers put a high demand on gas.  If you drive one YOU are hurting poor people.

[animal]

If your widget cannot support taxation you don't even have a market.  Taxes are applied to profit.  Nothing is being suppressed.

Wow ACE !
You not only managed to miss the point ... indirect "costs" of regulation which aren't tax collections, but waste introduced into the system ... by either increased costs without benefit to any party (unless you count lawyers ..I don't .. seem more like a parasitic draw to me),
or limiting the growth of the market.

but you also flat out lied ... Some taxes are applied to a profit. The example I gave was a type of ad valorum tax, not an income tax. It's applied "on the value of" the item just like the Latin words say. There are many taxes which are not levied as a percentage of income.

While you are entertaining at times, I'm starting to worry about whether you're ok.

[Acebird]

You are not telling the whole story.  There is something fishy about your excise tax because they apply to something consumable like alcohol or cigarettes not a fishing lure.  Both of these items are very profitable and can support all the taxes applied.  The taxes do not harm the market one I ota.  Neither do all the gas taxes.  Regardless of what the price of gasoline is we americans will consume more then what we can produce.
Our country needs to grab all the tax money it can from gasoline and use that money to support other forms of energy that we can produce ourselves.

[animal]

Of course I'm not telling the whole story, I'm telling you what I remember. ... without going into a long dissertation about excise taxes, how many there are, the intricate details of the BS I faced with them, and why you often cannot set up shop on a shoestring because of excise taxes and other government regulation. Most of the system is designed to front-load the cost of going into business which keeps new little guys from starting up .. thereby protecting the big guys from competition.
The fat cats say the little guys can't get into the market because they're under capitalized ... when often, the only reason the little guy is under capitalized is because of artificial costs caused by regulation.
You obviously have no clue as to what items are subject to federal excise taxes, much less state and sometimes local ones... or you're lying.  Funny thing is, I don't care. So no, I'm not telling the whole story, but I'm not lying.
Believe what you want. I'm gonna go make some money and, in the process, see how many of your beloved taxes I can avoid.

... notice I said avoid, not evade ... big difference

to be honest, I started to waste time going into detail... then I realized nothing I said would have mattered so I opted for troll vs, troll instead. have a good one ! 

[Kathyp]

Neither do all the gas taxes.  Regardless of what the price of gasoline is we americans will consume more then what we can produce.
Our country needs to grab all the tax money it can from gasoline and use that money to support other forms of energy that we can produce ourselves.

That's untrue (surprise!)  We can produce far more than we do, but regulations are restrictive when it comes to building new refineries and we have to put up with the eco-nuts that cost court money and slow things down. 
Before Biden, we were producing more oil than we were using and in spite of the lack of refining capacity, fuel prices were much lower.  Oil is an international market, so if we produce excess the price is pushed down. 

You are advocating for confiscation and redistribution.  Unfortunately, that redistribution is to industries that repeatedly take that money and then fail.  For those few that don't fail, they can't exist without subsidies and they are not cost effective.  They are also not clean and they are not efficient.

It all is a good example of economic Fasicm though.  Approved businesses get supported by the government and those out of favor get punished.

[Acebird]

We consume 20 mil barrels per day and produce 11mil. That's a big gap. God only knows where you get your numbers.

[Acebird]

[quote author=Kathyp link=topic=56730.msg520352#msg520352 date=16933294.
You are advocating for confiscation and redistribution.  Unfortunately, that redistribution is to industries that repeatedly take that money and then fail.  For those few that don't fail, they can't exist without subsidies and they are not cost effective.  They are also not clean and they are not efficient.
[/quote]
That sounds like farming.

[Kathyp]

We consume 20 mil barrels per day and produce 11mil. That's a big gap.

that's fair enough, but here is what I said:

We can produce far more than we do, but regulations are restrictive when it comes to building new refineries and we have to put up with the eco-nuts that cost court money and slow things down.

  The main thing we did that made us energy independent before COVID and Biden was fracking and natural gas.  We can produce more. We were at our peak and increasing before COVID restrictions crashed the oil market. We have to have the will to produce more.  The oil market is global so what we can't refine, we sell.  Build more refineries and build more LNG lines. 

That sounds like farming.

Let me know when you don't have to eat.  And no I'm not advocating for farm subsidies, but at least we get something in return.

[animal]

I have to admit that I actually laughed out loud when I read Ace's "That sounds like farming" ... just enough truth to be funny

Anyway, this is closer to the subject than fishing lures 
I'm pleased to announce that my oldest daughter has joined the ranks of happy drivers of crew cab 8 cyl gas burning trucks. I had bought it because it was a good deal (only because I'm ok with a wrench), to trade or make money towards a small(ish) car for the younger one. Got it cheap because thieves had cut the catalytic converters out, stole a wheel and it sat for awhile. Oldest heard, and said she was looking for a truck. This one had been well taken care of (trans changed at 50k, close to 100k on odo, oil changed every 3500) so gave it the full treatment as a keeper instead of "fix for sale". Replaced cats, seat motor, fuel pump, water pump, radiator(upgraded to HD towing just 'cause I got it for 5 bucks more), thermostat, belt, Steam clean in/out/and around, couple of coils, O2 sensors, full scan with the toughbook, changed oil, trans fluid, brake fluid and rear calipers. Only thing wrong now is it's a F-150 and metallic charcoal, so the hood and roof is a little scruffy.(and it has the trim package with the low-slung running boards, hate those things) Swapped her for a Rav 4 that we gave her a few years ago. Youngest gets that for bouncing to and from college.
Anyway she's had it for a week now and I asked if she likes it and she beamed. For the record, she's even happy with the mileage. Bugger does run good, if I say so myself.

[Michael Bush]

>We consume 20 mil barrels per day and produce 11mil.

Under Biden.  Under Trump we were exporting it.

[Acebird]

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-crude-output-rise-record-1276-mln-bpd-2023-eia-2023-08-08/#:~:text=NEW%20YORK%2C%20Aug%208%20(Reuters,Energy%20Information%20Administration%20on%20Tuesday.
You been reading Kathy's sources?

[animal]

>We consume 20 mil barrels per day and produce 11mil.

Under Biden.  Under Trump we were exporting it.

Alrighty then, some weeds to get into are needed. I'll try to keep them trimmed.
WE were and are exporting oil, and we use more than we produce. What happened under Trump as far as being historic market-wise, had to do with the overall energy market rather than just the oil segment of it. Most of the movement happened in the oil and gas market, but we never became a net exporter of oil in particular.
Trump tipped the scale to us becoming "energy independent" (net exporter of energy, all sources) for the first time in over 50 years (more, but I can't remember exact number and am too lazy to look it up)  with an executive order which decreased the cost of production of US oil and natural gas. Other things too, pipeline, for instance. Anyway, oil accounts for a little over a third of the "energy" produced. Gas accounts for a little less than a third.

So we had high exports at low prices while Trump was able to build up the oil reserves at a discount price (and help support the domestic production market in the process)

Covid hit, screwed the pooch on nearly everything market-wise(chaos), and then the election came.

Biden shut down the pipeline, reversed policies on oil leases with a slick move that amounts to "sure you can have oil leases : on the lands that don't have oil" and a few other idiotic moves. These policies obviously increase the cost of production and decrease availability : both of which would raise prices and did, but Biden had a handy-dandy huge pool of oil reserves that had been bought by Trump back when prices dropped like a rock due to his policies. So, for quite awhile, Biden was able to artificially dampen prices in the domestic market.
So far, everything I've mentioned Biden doing wouldn't affect world demand for US oil in a positive way. So, how do you increase demand for your product while your prices for it are going up?
Simple ... capture a market by removing competition.
Which market? Europe, plus whoever else you can get to go along with sanctions against Russia. Then, you can even set a new , higher record !

So now we've got high exports at high prices, high prices at the pump, and low oil reserves.

And I haven't touched devaluation of the dollar: bad under Covid-Trump, atrocious under Biden. not a fan of either, to be honest, but i think it's better to be honest about them... not to imply that I thought you were being dishonest, btw. ... and I'm really replying to the topic/room

[Kathyp]

https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/kinshasa-young-people-trained-content-production-pledge-to-fight-disinformation

We take all these things piecemeal, but they are a part of a bigger picture.  COVID  might have been an accident, but it was an opportunity for the world bodies doing the 2030 stuff.  They said so out loud.  Climate change is another one they have been exploiting.  They said so out loud.

Now we have children IDing "misinformation" and spending their time fixing it for us. 

I think it's past time we wake up to the big picture.  Our next president will be one that will do the bidding of the IMF and the UN at large.  No one else will be allowed.  These little mistakes, like reducing our energy independence, reducing our military, distracting us with social issues, and destroying our standard of living, are not accidents.  Our intel agencies and our military being degraded are not accidents.

They keep telling us what they want to do but few seem to be listening.

[animal]

kathy, humans are predisposed to look for patterns whether they are there or not.
Never underestimate the breadth nor depth nor contagion of human stupidity ... imo, the best lesson the internet can teach us 

[Kathyp]

kathy, humans are predisposed to look for patterns whether they are there or not.

Sure, and I know that we all can go down conspiracy rabbit holes.  In this case, though, they are posting and talking about their goals.  The pattern fits the goals. 

And looking for patterns and anomalies is kinda one of my prior life background things. 

[animal]

Well, that sounds a little spooky ... true enough, but when the ducks and geese both fly south for winter, it doesn't mean they're in on it together. Imo, too many varied interests and too large a theater to be coming from one pipe. Then you have, the larger the show is, the less chance a puppeteer can succeed. If the goal is uncontrolled systemic collapse, we're already at point of no return, imo. Then, there's nothing to do but play it by ear.
I'm all for exploring ideas but saying conspiracy out loud already closes peoples' ears ... to the point that certain obvious evidence of conspiracy is ignored by most of the public.
No worries here whichever way it is, is not, or goes. If you can't affect it, it makes no sense to worry about it, and I've always been able to land on my feet.

[Kathyp]

No worries here whichever way it is, is not, or goes. If you can't affect it, it makes no sense to worry about it, and I've always been able to land on my feet.

So have I, but I wonder what we are leaving our kids and grandkids.  The outlines of the plans are out there for public consumption if anyone cares to google.  I have always thought that people should be believed when they are telling you they want to do something.

[animal]

That's why we teach them the various skills we hope they will never need. At no time in history was there a shortage of those who wanted to lord over others. I'll admit, I've felt the need to reread Marcus Aurelius more often in the last couple of years, but there's also the great philosopher, Mel Brooks. "Hope for the best. Expect the worst. Some drink Champaign. Some die of thirst." 
Keep that yeast that can handle high alcohol dry, until you're ready to use it ... so to speak.

[Acebird]

Let me know when you don't have to eat.

My point is farmers are predominately republican and like to complain about someone else getting subsidies.  If farmers were not subsidized we would just pay more for food.  We wouldn't have the money to buy gas guzzling trucks when we DON'T NEED THEM.

[Kathyp]

We wouldn't have the money to buy gas guzzling trucks when we DON'T NEED THEM.

I know you are just chain yanking, but you bring up something that I always find interesting.  Who gets to define need and what are the parameters?

Example: I have a friend who was in a very bad car accident. She was driving a small car.  After that, she was never comfortable in a small car so she bought large, less fuel efficient but safer in her mind, cars.  Would her psychological need count? 

What exactly is the definition of need?  Do I need to transport big stuff in my big truck?  Maybe we could have a trip permit system so that I'd have to justify my need to take my truck somewhere?  Do I have to justify my need before I can even buy one?  The questions this brings up are endless, but they all boil down to who defines need and how...and by what right do they have the power?