Shallows only?

[blackforest beekeeper]

Hi there from Germany,

as I just posted in my introduction, we are using a 9-frame Jumbo-box with shallows as supers.
NOW:
When I decided for these frames I had some ideas.
- most organic beekeepers and new-bees in Germany use the Jumbo-Frames (usually with unbelievable 12 frames)
- faster working on the bees
- pressing the brood-nest
- 9 frames so four colonies will be on a standard-pallete
I also read from some people that they didn`t use these large frames in forest-honey regions, because the flows are late and the honey is NOT good for wintering the bees. Too much fibre in it.
So I asked a friend with a professional beekeeping business. He said: nonsense, go ahead.
I didn`t consider that HE didn`t live in a forest-honey-region....
this year brought it: Pine trees are still honeying. No way to get the honey off the combs. Half the winter-feed would be there, but  it`s really russian roulette for the bees: will there be mild weather in between to go potty?
A very few colonies I put on 2 shallows (for explanation: I usually do late splits End of jUly/Beginning of August: so   I am wintering "half" colonies). For the reason, they will be run on ONE shallow next year to produce comb-honey (Ross Rounds). And in these few colonies it was very easy to get at the pine-tree-honey (and the "concrete-honey", which is even worse as it cristallizes in the combs and the bees can`t even eat in winter).
Now I was really considering to use shallows all over. I`d go for mediums, but I have some 250 or 300 shallows with frames and all. The jumbo-boxes could be cut in halves...the rest will fit

Anybody running their colonies on shallows only? I know on mediums (common in Austria, eg.). But I would go shallows, IF.

Anybody have any objections apart from the additional box and the additional 9 frames? And of course the extra-work in swarming season. Nothing faster than Jumbos or something like that.

thanks for reading, thanks for comments, very many thanks for EXPERIENCES,

the blackforest beekeeper

[BeeMaster2]

BFB,
I?m pretty sure we have several beekeepers here in the United States that run all shallows.
I run all mediums and during the summer I usually have at least three medium brood boxes.
Jim

[blackforest beekeeper]

Question was not if it could be done.
Question was: will the colonies prosper as they should
and yield as much as usually?

[Acebird]

Question was: will the colonies prosper as they should
and yield as much as usually?

Didn't see that question...
I don't know the answer.  You will have to find someone in your area that is running all shallows to get the answer.
On another note:  How cold are your winters?  What harm does fiber do to the bees if your winter is not 6 months long?  Why would the bees collect a whole bunch of nectar that they can't use?

[blackforest beekeeper]

it ain`t nectar. it`s dew honey.
bees wouldn`t live where I live without people to take care of them. also, there would be nothing else to collect, so they collect what is sweet.
nobody in the German-speaking area is running all shallows. some are running all mediums. that`s why I registered here.

winters tend to be warmer in the last years. usually they can fly every now and again. if winters are "normal", everything will be fine. but there can be severe winters with snow and frost from october to march.
where my bees (most of them) are during the winter, snow is scarce.
it is a wine-region. not a warm one, but they do grow wine.
in the black forest, with the pine-honey, we are talking of snow and cold winters.

[cao]

Question was not if it could be done.
Question was: will the colonies prosper as they should
and yield as much as usually?

I can't exactly answer your question since I don't have any hives that are all shallows.  I use a combination of deeps, mediums and shallows.  I haven't noticed any difference in production because of the box size.  Some of my hives have a couple mediums for brood and then shallows for honey supers.  Some have a deep for brood then shallows above.  Some are all mediums.  Some Have all three sizes.  If I had shallow nuc boxes to make splits, then I would probably have some hives with all shallows.  But since I start out with either deep or medium frames then the first brood box is not a shallow box.  Hope this helps some.

[Acebird]

nobody in the German-speaking area is running all shallows. some are running all mediums.

You will have to be the first then and report back.  If you want to improve the brood nest and improve your chances of success you could remove the bottom bar on the frames in the brood nest for the inside frames.

[Michael Bush]

The only real downside to all shallows, at least here in the US, is the availability of various things for mediums compared to shallows.  We can buy frame feeders and plastic foundation and one piece plastic frame/foundation for mediums.  None of these are available for shallows.

[blackforest beekeeper]

hey guys,

thanks for the comments so far!

To be the first...have to do that fairly often, I guess.

In this case we try to rest one leg on the income from honey (and nucs). So "trying" is a hard thing to do. I will try with a minority of our hives next year. but changing the system to only ONE frame (now we have 3: Jumbos, shallows and "MiniPlus" (which is a  vertically divided medium - as a queen mating system - can be over-wintered; I think shallows will be a substitute for that, too) does take time - two winters for the woodwork, one season for re-lodging.
To get Jumbo-Nucs I have an idea: put a 6-frame box of shallows with brood and queen-cell on top of a 6 frame jumbo nuc with foundation (or without, but buyers want "nice" comb). So I could deal with that.

@Michael: So You think: doesn`t matter if shallows or deeps or whatever, performance will be the same? As for equipment: I do most things myself - even frames mostly. So I will loose no sweat there. I even designed a little fork-lift to help moving hives, which is doing just fine (if there is interest, I could provide a link).
If I was a US-Beekeeper, I would go for the 8-frame medium. And I would have gone for 9-frame mediums here, but for this friend....o well.

great to be here,

the blackforest beekeeper

[blackforest beekeeper]

nobody in the German-speaking area is running all shallows. some are running all mediums.

You will have to be the first then and report back.  If you want to improve the brood nest and improve your chances of success you could remove the bottom bar on the frames in the brood nest for the inside frames.

I didn`t quite dig it.
But first: I want to be able to move frames around. Playing with bottomless frames will not do for that. Also, my "bottoms"(?) are 4 inches deep to provide for enough room for the bees during season, esp. during moving them; as I keep the available brood-nest-comb-area at a moderate minimum. So this would end in an endless mess...

[sjh]

BFB,
I live in Tasmania Australia and the commercial Beekeepers around where i live mostly run shallows or Ideals as they are known in Australia.
They also place their hives on pallets (4 hives on 1 pallet) and use a forklift to move them around to follow the flows.

Steve.

[blackforest beekeeper]

BFB,
I live in Tasmania Australia and the commercial Beekeepers around where i live mostly run shallows or Ideals as they are known in Australia.
They also place their hives on pallets (4 hives on 1 pallet) and use a forklift to move them around to follow the flows.

Steve.

Greetings from the Black Forest to way-down-under!

Thanks, great information.

How are the flows there? How much yield average per colony during the year?
For comparison: If one takes the average honey-making-colony (which I would say is roughly two/thirds of the ones that went INTO winter, maybe three/fourth in good years with good queens) our yield this year was 50 kg. The guy from the organic-controlling-organisation said, "good" beekeepers would yield about 40-90 kg in southern Germany (in the East it`s probably higher).
As I calculate the average yield on the hives that have gone into winter the season before I consider a sound average yield to be 35 kg around my place. That does include moving hives around. But basswood and chestnut and firs where not so good this year. Black locust completely failed.

If the commercial beekeepers use excluders (which I presume they do): how many shallows down under (hehe) the excluder? I would consider 2 generous. In Jumbos, I give less comb to the queen (as do (almost) all commercial beekeepers in germany. I guess it all depends on the reliability of flows, so one doesn`t have to feed.

Moving hives I use only 2 colonies per pallet (which are just half-euro-standard-pallets, so I get the same loading capacity but am slowler) which is a compromise to my small beekeeping and handling of my little forklift (you look here: http://dreilichs.de/if/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=241 - I was just loading spring flower honey when we took the pictures; black locust in full bloom in the background).

greetings from the blackforest beekeeper

[Acebird]

But first: I want to be able to move frames around. Playing with bottomless frames will not do for that.

Most commercials do not mix brood frames into their honey supers.  There would be nothing stopping you from moving the frames around in brood boxes.  I don't understand what the mess would be.

[blackforest beekeeper]

But first: I want to be able to move frames around. Playing with bottomless frames will not do for that.

Most commercials do not mix brood frames into their honey supers.  There would be nothing stopping you from moving the frames around in brood boxes.  I don't understand what the mess would be.

The bees would draw comb on the lowest level down to the screen. For me that would mean the combs would then be about "deeps". I couldn`t put them on the scnd. layer e.g. without cutting off comb. mess, no?

I don`t move broodframes into the supers. As far as has been, I couldn`t even. (Jumbos for brood, shallows for supers)
BUT: On very rare occasions, like when the "cement-honey" is in these combs, it would be very to nice to be able to!

For a matter of fact, beekeepers in the black forest traditionally DO put brood-frames into the supers. Even if they use an excluder, which they usually don`t.
Reason being: Broodnest tends to get clogged up with forest honey. To give them oppurtunity to breed, empty combs are given and (capped) brood is put above the excluder (where it inadvertently will be brought home with honey....). also, forest honey is very thick. It can hardly be extracted. In order to run the extractor with high speed, brood-combs are used cause they will stand more.
I don`t do these things as I taste it when honey has been stored in brood-combs. But I have to live with all the disadvantages, too.

[Acebird]

If I had to deal with cement honey I would crush and strain.  Get a machine to separate the wax and comb.

[blackforest beekeeper]

If I had to deal with cement honey I would crush and strain.  Get a machine to separate the wax and comb.

that s about what I did. So manually....yet. a sort of press would do it, I guess. the rest would have to be melted down.
It happens maybe every 5 years. CAN be major flows up to 5 kg/day. was around 1 to 2 kg/day this year. most beekeepers flee with their bees. around here - the locals - extract what they can from the combs and insert the frames into running water for a day or two - to get the combs empty. Not my way to loose all that honey.
The usual answer from more thoughtful beekeepers is a melting-gadget for cappingwax.
but then it  looses value.
I decided to make mead out of it (thats a good-tasting mead). got some barrels for free. I will cut the comb from the frames and mix with water in a dough-kneading machine left from my fathers bakery. should work.

[sjh]

BFB,
The commercial hives have 4 shallows 8 frame, not sure if they use an excluder.
I do not know how much the commercial operators hives yield.
The hives are brought to the area where i live to over winter as i live in a milder climate and moved around the state following the flows.
I run 3 hives (Little Fish) take 20 to 30 kg from each hive and leave plenty of stores.

Steve.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Hi Steve,
4 shallows for over-wintering? or during season?

[sjh]

BFB,
4 Shallows over winter.
I tend to have 2 to 3 shallows of brood and 1 full shallow of stores going into winter, What we call winter here you would think was early spring.
The bees still come out to forage most days.

Steve.

[blackforest beekeeper]

Sounds like a bearable winter!
So bees actually collect nectar in winter? Or just Pollen?
I guess in any case You don`t have to feed sugar...

As our winters tend to have a period of brood-freeness the amount of winterfeed is tolerable. Depending on colony-size that would be 10 to 20 kg till they can sustain themselves again. The total of winter-bees would be somewhere between 10000 and at least 5000.
So around here 3 of those shallows should suffice in any case. I usually winter smaller colonies from 4 to 8 Jumbo-Frames. I plan for 6 or 7. Of course one could winter larger colonies, but I think it is not worth the little extra spring flower honey, since two make more than one and the colonies grow really fast once spring has come.

You also running all shallows?