Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DISEASE & PEST CONTROL => Topic started by: little john on May 04, 2016, 01:31:23 pm

Title: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: little john on May 04, 2016, 01:31:23 pm

For millennia the Varroa mite was kept away from Apis Mellifera by geographical separation, but subsequent to the activities of human beings Varroa has now spread throughout most countries of the world and currently poses one of the biggest challenges facing beekeepers. 

With regard to how best to deal with Varroa, beekeepers have become entrenched into two opposing camps: one which advocates treatment, and the other advocating being 'treatment-free' ... which is usually synonymous with being chemical-free, although there are several other types of treatment available, such as physical, and procedural (being essentially methods of brood interruption), but although some of these may be very effective methods at a local level, the overall problem continues to persist.

It is common knowledge that drones from one hive freely enter other hives, regardless of whether that other hive be in the same apiary or not. And although it is generally considered that guard bees prevent foreign foraging bees from entering, this guarding activity is not 100% effective, for sometimes foreign foraging bees DO manage to enter.  I first suspected this (the entry of foreign foragers past guard bees) as being the source of communication which leads to robbing under conditions of nectar dearth, and it was effectively 'confirmed' when - having sealed all my hives at midnight on several occasions - one or two bees were observed waiting patiently to be let into their hive entrances the following morning.  But where had they spent the night ?  These bees were observed to always be in good condition, and so had very clearly spent the night somewhere warm, and most likely had been 'topped-up' with some kind of carbohydrate in order to fuel their return flight home.  Spending the night in another hive, at another apiary, is the only obvious conclusion which can be drawn.

This is why 100% mite-kills in (say) a Thermo-Solar hive, or even by the use of numerous Oxalic Acid Vapourisation applications, are doomed to failure if a neighbouring apiary is being run treatment-free, and where a small residual population of mites are being tolerated. Thus, an apiary might well be mite-free immediately after applying the treatment of choice - but will not remain mite-free for very long after that.  For beekeeping is a communal activity, in the sense that your bees will always affect neighbouring apiaries, and vice-versa.  The philosophies of treatment and treatment-free can then be seen as opposing philosophies and as such cannot co-exist effectively. That is why the problem of Varroa continues to persist, even in those areas where feral colonies are absent or few in number.

To be treatment-free for a number of years may sound like a success story - and I suppose it IS when viewed at the individual apiary level, but when viewed from a wider communal point-of-view, it is just so many years of fostering a seed source of this parasite which may well have been spread during that time by natural inter-apiary foraging activity.

I cannot offer any solutions to this riddle, but it is very obvious to me that the current scenario of some treating for Varroa and some not treating, has generated an untenable situation which is analogous to the constant bailing-out of water from a leaky boat - insomuch as it ain't solving the underlying problem.

LJ

Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on May 05, 2016, 12:47:15 pm
If everyone continuously treats for Varroa the problem is unsolvable.  The feral bees (our only real hope for the future genetics of bees) will still have Varroa.  As soon as everyone stopped treating for Tracheal mites the problem went away.  The problem is not the people not treating.  The problem is the people treating.

?If you?re not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you?re part of the problem?? Randy Oliver
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: BeeMaster2 on May 05, 2016, 12:59:51 pm
I had heard that India, due to lack of money for treatment, decided when they were first infested with mites, that they were not going to treat them across the country. The first 2 years they lost most of their hives but then they recovered. Treatment free. I go with treatment free. This spring, most of my hives were dropping mites like crazy, I was worried but did not treat. It took about 2 to 3 weeks to clear up. Now I rarely see them in the dry oil trays.
Jim
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Rurification on May 05, 2016, 01:53:02 pm
I totally get what you're saying here, but I keep losing colony after colony and when I do the postmortems the answer inevitably comes back as being related directly or indirectly to mites.   So, am I just supposed to spend the next decade paying huge amounts of money to replace my bees every year?    If they were cheaper, I might feel differently, but the prices are still skyrocketing around here.   And catching feral swarms is not feasible.   

Realistically, what are we who want just a few hives supposed to do?
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on May 05, 2016, 02:25:51 pm
>And catching feral swarms is not feasible.   

I don't see how it's not feasible, but the first step is to get bees that are surviving without treatments.  The feral bees have already taken their losses.  If you don't want to trap them or get on a swarm list or do a cut out then try these for next year:

http://www.fatbeeman.com/bees-honey/
http://www.wolfcreekbees.com/
http://www.goldstarhoneybees.com/shopcontent.asp?type=How%20to%20get%20bees%20for%20your%20Gold%20Star%20top%20bar%20hive
http://anarchyapiaries.org/hivetools/node/32
http://www.enjoybeekeeping.com/

And if they are all sold out you can call or write:
Kirk Webster
Box 381
Middlebury, Vt. 05753
802-989-5895 (no voice mail)

Myron Kropf
2233 LITTLE WOODS RD
BEXAR AR 72515-9509
870-458-3002 (no voice mail)

And there are others.  Likely there are some treatment free beekeepers near you.


Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: cao on May 06, 2016, 01:13:23 am
My opinion about treating for varroa is more in line with Michael Bush(don't treat).  But probably not totally for the same reason.  I decided no to treat my hives because to me bees are complicated enough to understand.  Then throw in trying to learn what chemicals to get and how much to apply and when.  And then there is the extra cost.  It is too much for me.  I'll just concentrate on trying to give the bees what they are asking for(the basics: food, water and shelter).  And maybe being left alone.  I'm not so good on that one. :wink: 

I do believe that we have to learn to live with varroa.  In the big picture, I don't see how in the long run that treating our hives will help.  But I do see that individual beeks with a couple hives that don't want to lose them will treat.  This is my 4th summer with bees.  Started with 3 nucs, lost one the first winter (big loss at the time).  Now I'm up to 20+ hives and a dozen nucs.  Probably going to make up more nucs in a week or two.  I don't know if my bees have varroa(I assume they do).  I haven't really looked for it.  Although I think I might have seen some in the oil trays.  Not for sure since I didn't look close. 

I just hope that I'm just part solution not the problem.

Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Jim134 on May 06, 2016, 08:00:25 am
I have several treatment free beekeepers Within an hour from me who raised Queens for sale. I believe this is the second largest one in New England.
http://nhbeekeeper.com/
https://www.facebook.com/Hall-Apiaries-146558695363964/?fref=ts

You may like to consider Russian bees. Certified Russian bees seem to be able to handle varroa mites well.
Also several other very good hygienic bees. Available in the USA. I did go to Russia and several years ago and grateful I did. The only place I know where you can get certified Russian Queen bees. Is from anyone who belongs to the association.

http://www.russianbreeder.org/

The vice president of this Association only lives 30 minutes away from my house. His mating yards are about 15 nautical miles away.


                   BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: little john on May 06, 2016, 11:09:36 am
On another thread, someone asked me why - if OAV is so effective - the problem hasn't been solved by the administering of such treatment over the last 20 years.

I would turn that question on it's head and ask - for those who've been running apiaries treatment-free for 20 years - how come the problem hasn't yet been solved by that methodology ? Because - if treatment-free really IS the solution, then colonies which do not have a hygenic trait will duly perish, and drones from those with a hygenic trait will spread that hygenic trait gene (if such a thing really does exist) far and wide - at first to neighbouring colonies and onwards and outwards from there, regardless of whether treatments are being administered elsewhere or not.

I think it is much more likely that hygenic behaviour is the result of a genetic tag, rather than a genuine genetic mutation.

BTW - I don't think quoting Randy Oliver's opinion is really very helpful.

LJ
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Rurification on May 06, 2016, 03:10:02 pm
Thanks for the extra suggestions.   I would much rather be treatment free both for the big picture reasons and for the reasons that CAO gave.   

It happens that the one colony that made it through the winter this year is the daughter of a Russian queen I bought with a package last year.   They didn't like her and replaced her late in the year.   I used quilt boxes this winter and that tiny colony made it through.   They are a little more defensive than the Italians.   

I also have 2 more nucs coming from Stuart Ratcliff in Bedford, Indiana, who does not treat.   

This is my 5th year I'm hoping to really get things going.   If I could get to a point and maintain 8-12 hives/nucs then I wouldn't worry when I lost one to mites/whatever.   I'm comfortable feeding, making splits and dealing with queenless hives, letting them make their own queens, etc.   I just can't keep them alive for more than a season or so.    I don't know if it's just that I don't know enough yet, or if it's the bees, or the mites, or poor winter prep or what.    ...   which is why I started to wonder if maybe I should just treat.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Psparr on May 06, 2016, 07:40:52 pm
Rurification, if it helps or not, I use a quilt box as well, and have not lost a hive yet. The only one I did lose was because a tree branch fell on it knocking off the cover and they got wet. I also didn't treat last year. Saw quite a few mites on the screened bottom board, but still didn't treat. They are booming now.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: little john on May 07, 2016, 02:19:53 am
Thanks for the extra suggestions.   I would much rather be treatment free both for the big picture reasons and for the reasons that CAO gave.   
[....]
I don't know if it's just that I don't know enough yet, or if it's the bees, or the mites, or poor winter prep or what.    ...   which is why I started to wonder if maybe I should just treat.

Robin - seeing as this thead is concerned with this issue of treating or non-treating, and you're debating in your mind whether to or not - if you haven't already done so, you may find reading http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-rules-for-successful-beekeeping/  to be helpful.

I hope so.
LJ
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Rurification on May 08, 2016, 09:46:44 am
psparr - Thanks for the comment about quilt boxes.   I'm really hoping that in my little microclimate, the quilt boxes will make a big difference.

LJ - Thanks for the link.   I read it and it makes sense.    I had spent some time on that site a couple of years ago and had forgotten some of the things he talks about so it was nice to have the refresher.   [And I've saved the link this time to my bee folder.]

I've got a new sugar roll kit and my goal this year is to learn how to use it easily since I have solid bottoms and can't do a mite drop count.    Let's say my mite numbers get high in June/July or I see some DWV.   If I go treatment free, is my only option to just let them alone?
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Jim134 on May 10, 2016, 03:01:08 pm
A different view on treatment-free beekeeping. That you may not have heard. Kirk Webster of Middlebury Vermont. In my opinion Kirk Webster is way a head of all the other treatment-free in the USA .
 
http://tfb.podbean.com/mobile/e/treatment-free-beekeeping-podcast-episode-32-kirk-in-vermont/

You can read his articles here.

http://kirkwebster.com/



     BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on May 10, 2016, 04:23:45 pm
>I would turn that question on it's head and ask - for those who've been running apiaries treatment-free for 20 years - how come the problem hasn't yet been solved by that methodology ?

100s of thousands of package bees with poor genetics being dumped into the gene pool every year is not helping.  But not treating is working better than treating in my experience and every bit as good by most of the polls being taken.

?If you?re not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you?re part of the problem?? Randy Oliver
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: little john on May 10, 2016, 05:39:56 pm
A different view on treatment-free beekeeping. That you may not have heard. Kirk Webster of Middlebury Vermont.

I don't know if your post is addressed to myself, but Kirk Webster and his philosophies are very well known to me.
But the question remains - if non-treating is so successful, then why haven't Varroa-resistant genes already spread to neighbouring apiaries, rendering treatment there unnecessary ? 

There is a guy living in Swindon, in central southern England, who claimed to have developed a Varroa-resistant bee decades ago. So where are these bees now ?  Why haven't they flooded the country and made that guy a fortune ?

My suggestion is that what is probably being experienced is not a genetic mutation at all (some of which can take centuries to develop), but rather an epigenetic 'tag' which, by switching on or off certain genes gives the illusion that a mutation has occurred.  But - unlike a true genetic mutation, the inheritance of a 'tag' can be both temporary and random. It may be passed from one generation to the next a few times, or it may not - there are no guarantees with tags ... and this is pretty-much the story I'm hearing from people who have purchased queens allegedly with Varroa-related genetic mutations.


BTW, there is a very interesting paper on the Web, entitled "Survivor Stock - A Protocol for Small-Scale Beekeepers" by M.E.A. McNeil.

In that paper - which is largely about Sue Cobey's strategies - there are a couple of quotes which I think are worth making:
Quote
?Programmes and especially gene selection programmes can never adequately keep up with the changing environment, certainly not to the extent that a ?live-and-let-die? approach can. Allowing natural selection to determine who the winners are will always be the most sensible strategy.?
"That is how Danny Weaver of 'BeeWeaver' developed 5000 untreated hives kept between Texas and North Dakota; but Weaver sacrificed thousands of colonies to that goal."

Now this may indeed have been a close approximation to Natural Selection, but who can afford to sacrifice thousands of colonies to achieve such a result (especially if the result may not be long-lasting) ?

And as we continue to read this paper, any attempt at an emulation of Natural Selection soon runs into farce.
Sue Cobey: ?The ideal is for an II (instrumental insemination) lab to inseminate the breeder stock ..."; ?it is ideal for beekeepers to control mating areas using resistant drone saturation; it will make the process much faster. Every time a queen open mates (with unknown drones), the colony goes back into the random gene pool. But if you must and are near beekeepers who treat, give them some free queen cells.?  So much for Natural Selection ... 

Why not let your resistant drones compete with non-resistant drones - isn't such competition between drones at the very heart of Natural Selection in Honey Bees, where drones and not females are responsible for fecundity ? 

But of course, this is NOT Natural Selection at all - it is Beekeeper-Selection, where human beings think they can outwit Mother Nature. Indeed, I think we need to remind ourselves from time to time that although Queens ARE the carriers of DNA in the sense of being the repository, it is the drones which spread that DNA far and wide and thus determine the larger gene-pool.  Which of course is precisely WHY honeybee colonies produce so many drones, much to the displeasure of honey-farmers.

LJ
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: little john on May 10, 2016, 06:03:24 pm
>I would turn that question on it's head and ask - for those who've been running apiaries treatment-free for 20 years - how come the problem hasn't yet been solved by that methodology ?

100s of thousands of package bees with poor genetics being dumped into the gene pool every year is not helping. But not treating is working better than treating in my experience and every bit as good by most of the polls being taken.

?If you?re not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you?re part of the problem?? Randy Oliver

But there are many countries where this is NOT happening - Varroa is not confined to the US. 

I have already commented that quoting Randy Oliver's opinion - which is (unlike most of his writings) a somewhat inflammatory political comment and not evidence-based - is not really very helpful.  Anyone can pluck such quotes from websites in order to score points in the absence of a reasoned argument.

My opinion is the reverse of Oliver's - that it is treatment-free apiaries which are part of the continuing problem.  But - like Oliver, I don't have any factual evidence to support such an assertion - it is just my opinion.  And as such, not particularly helpful.

LJ

Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on May 11, 2016, 11:11:07 am
>that it is treatment-free apiaries which are part of the continuing problem

So you believe you can eradicate the Varroa if everyone would treat?  It's not going to happen even if everyone did.  There are more swarms from the treated commercial beekeepers in this country than there are hobbyists who are not treating.  All of those will continue to harbor Varroa.  In any country there are feral bees (in the case of much of Europe, possibly even wild bees) surviving in the woods.  Those are harboring Varroa.  But you can't even kill all the Varroa in a given hive without killing all the bees, so there is no point trying to kill the feral bees.  And those feral bees are your best hope for the future anyway.  The continuing problem is continuing to treat.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Oblio13 on May 11, 2016, 08:59:16 pm
>And catching feral swarms is not feasible.   

I don't see how it's not feasible, but the first step is to get bees that are surviving without treatments.  The feral bees have already taken their losses.  If you don't want to trap them or get on a swarm list or do a cut out then try these for next year:

http://www.fatbeeman.com/bees-honey/
http://www.wolfcreekbees.com/
http://www.goldstarhoneybees.com/shopcontent.asp?type=How%20to%20get%20bees%20for%20your%20Gold%20Star%20top%20bar%20hive
http://anarchyapiaries.org/hivetools/node/32
http://www.enjoybeekeeping.com/

And if they are all sold out you can call or write:
Kirk Webster
Box 381
Middlebury, Vt. 05753
802-989-5895 (no voice mail)

Myron Kropf
2233 LITTLE WOODS RD
BEXAR AR 72515-9509
870-458-3002 (no voice mail)

And there are others.  Likely there are some treatment free beekeepers near you.
I bought bees from both Kirk Webster and Anarchy Apiaries (Sam Cook) year after year, and year after year I lost them to Varroa.

Now I use "soft" treatments  in August and try to keep the mites beat back when the winter bees are being made.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on May 12, 2016, 09:45:35 am
>I bought bees from both Kirk Webster and Anarchy Apiaries (Sam Cook) year after year, and year after year I lost them to Varroa.

On natural comb?  Small cell?  Large cell?  I lost all my bees to Varroa everytime on large cell foundation.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: yes2matt on May 24, 2016, 09:18:25 pm
I have to make this decision soon myself. One of my colonies is sugar-rolling over threshold. I've done without medicines so far, but it seems a waste to let them go. And also not fair to my neighbors.

But it also seems like genetic/ metagenetic improvement is the only sustainable solution in the long-term. And a year I treat is a year I delay going treatment-free for good.

It also seems like either scheduled treatment or treatment-free as a path depends heavily upon what my neighbors (within drone range)  are doing. And I haven't done that research. 

So I've put Apivar into and out of my "shopping cart" about three times.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Joe D on June 14, 2016, 12:41:03 am
I started to keep bees five and a half years ago and have never treated.  I have had a coupe of hives that absconded, and one that starved(my fault).  Back a couple years ago a neighbor let a commercial bk  put 20 hive on his place and was fixing to put another 20 there.  I saw him at our local bee club and told him his bee were I/2 mile from me.  He asked what I treated with and I told him I have never treated for mites, within a couple of weeks his bees were gone and haven't been back.  Worked great for me.

Good luck to you and your bees


Joe D
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: BeeMaster2 on June 14, 2016, 05:54:43 pm
I need to tell the commercial Beek that puts his hives right up against my property the same thing. Maybe he will stop putting them on top of me.
Jim
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Oblio13 on June 15, 2016, 08:32:39 pm
>I bought bees from both Kirk Webster and Anarchy Apiaries (Sam Cook) year after year, and year after year I lost them to Varroa.

On natural comb?  Small cell?  Large cell?  I lost all my bees to Varroa everytime on large cell foundation.
Natural comb - I use foundationless frames in eight-frame medium boxes, and a few Warre hives.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Philbee100 on March 10, 2017, 02:58:54 am
>And catching feral swarms is not feasible.   

I don't see how it's not feasible, but the first step is to get bees that are surviving without treatments.  The feral bees have already taken their losses.  If you don't want to trap them or get on a swarm list or do a cut out then try these for next year:

http://www.fatbeeman.com/bees-honey/
http://www.wolfcreekbees.com/
http://www.goldstarhoneybees.com/shopcontent.asp?type=How%20to%20get%20bees%20for%20your%20Gold%20Star%20top%20bar%20hive
http://anarchyapiaries.org/hivetools/node/32
http://www.enjoybeekeeping.com/

And if they are all sold out you can call or write:
Kirk Webster
Box 381
Middlebury, Vt. 05753
802-989-5895 (no voice mail)

Myron Kropf
2233 LITTLE WOODS RD
BEXAR AR 72515-9509
870-458-3002 (no voice mail)

And there are others.  Likely there are some treatment free beekeepers near you.
In New Zealand all our feral bees are dead due to Varroa.
If all the Beekeepers here went treatment free the industry would be decimated inside two seasons.
As far as Genetics go I cant see how and insect that open mates can be genetically improved?
Or can it?
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Acebird on March 10, 2017, 09:34:19 am
As far as Genetics go I cant see how and insect that open mates can be genetically improved?
How did the earth get populated with people when the only form of life was bacteria?
How do you genetically improve a species when you kill off its parasites for them?
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: EaglePestEliminators on April 18, 2017, 11:22:10 am
Treat or not to treat Decision is always personal.

FYI: Varroa Treatment: Treatments currently available for Varroa. Pyrethroid based varroacides, Thymol based varroacides more likely be Apiguard, MAQS Beehive Strips (not found everywhere), pi-Bioxal (oxalic acid).
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on April 18, 2017, 01:29:41 pm
>In New Zealand all our feral bees are dead due to Varroa.

Maybe.  But I've heard people say the the same here and it's simply not true.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: gww on April 18, 2017, 07:08:56 pm
I am a brand new bee keeper.  I think I know that most hive that are over run by mites do it by having babies, lots of babies.  If all hives have mites wether teated or untreated and the mite become an over load due to lots of brood making lots of mites and lots of mites infecting more bees with virus?  I do not see how the treatment free or treating guys can really be hurting each other that bad and even if they are, it will never be stopped.  I lean to the treatment free due to the fact that nobody controls all thier swarms so that none get away and so mites will never go away.  My conclusion right now is to not worry bout how anyone else keeps bees except maby to steal ideals from them that I want to incorperate for myself.  I have not treated yet and nothing has died yet.  When something dies, I will do an autopsy and try and figure out why.  I will watch for dmv and pierced brood caps and such.

If I lose some bees I might still live treatment free if I still end up with more then I started with when all is said and done.

I could be wrong but was thinking that kirk and micheal palmer may have had hives in the same area and both have taken differrent routes and made it work.  I am not even against treaters as long as they don't point too many fingers at me for the way I keep bees.  I might be a treater someday if that is where I decide to go.  Alot will depend on how I do now.

I figure all the bee keepers lose some of thier bees.  I don't expect to never lose one.  As long as I can keep building at a slow rate and not going too far backward (Though everyone of the big name early guys like lanstroth and miller all lost whole aperies and they are still looked up to.

One thing I believe is that the outside invioroment can not be controlled and so I intend to do it my way (which includes stealing ideals from others).  I am sure of one thing.  Bees are probly going no where cause all you have to do is look on craigs list and somebody always has extra to sell.

I would not try treatment free but the guy I bought my bees from doesn't treat and so I am letting it ride also.  I do think there is a differrance with a commercial guy who makes a living off bees with no other income.  I believe what they do is find the easiest way to put little proceedures in so that it can be relayed to thier helpers with less oversite from them.

Most peg away at it till they find what works really well for them and then the growing stops untill something new starts happenning.  Why make changes to what you know if you are being successful.

If I am successful not treating, you will not be able to convince me I am doing it wrong.  Most are like that. 
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: BeeMaster2 on April 18, 2017, 08:05:04 pm
GWW
When I started keeping bees. I was told over and over again that it was impossible to keep bees treatment free. That was 8 years ago and I am still treatement free. I use dry oil trays so you can check for mites all the time. Most hives have very few mites even with the trays being left un cleaned for a week. When I started out, there were very few feral swarms. At my farm, my wife's garden went un pollinatedfor 2 years until I placed hives there.   Now we see bees before we move them to the farm.
It can and is being done, even some commercial beeks are now doing it.
Jim
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: gww on April 18, 2017, 08:40:22 pm
Saw
Yes, I would not have the guts if I did not know that some have success.  It has some appeal to me cause I am lazy and not sure that I wan't lots of hives making 200lbs of honey.  I like money as good as anyone but already had one full time job for a big part of my life.  I am doing this cause it keeps me home and it is fun to learn.

I am using solid bottom boards cause I don't have to buy anything to build them.
I started this year with three hives and one swarmed and I gave the swarm away and then still did a fly back sorta split to try and stop after swarms.  Today I did a teronov split cause I found queen cups with eggs in them and did not want to lose more bees.  I was dissapointed cause I was going to try to make a little honey this year.  I need to get in the last hive and add some empties in the brood nest before it decides it wants to swarm.

I now have five hives and gave one away and didn't treat yet and if two die I will be even and the year is just started.  I of course in all of this am relieing on the queens getting mated and laying.

I don't know what the future holds for me but I am going to not treat for awhile and see how it goes.
Thanks for the tray trick.  I doubt it works with my hives and what I built.
gww
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: cao on April 18, 2017, 09:36:06 pm
Five years and counting with bees and not treated yet.  I have more of a problem with SHB than mites.  I do have SBB with oil trays on some of my hive and that helps alot.  I don't even look for mites.  I started with 3 nucs five years ago and had 20 make it through winter this year.  With swarms and splits I'm over 30(provided queens get mated).  I have several more hives to split.  It can be done treatment free.  Yes I have lost hives along the way but have had the resources to keep increasing numbers.  I understand the fear a new beek has in losing a hive when they only have one or two.  I think that is some of the reason why people treat.   Bees will live or die whether treated or not.  We cannot control nature.  We can only help it along.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: little john on April 20, 2017, 03:36:40 pm
Interesting Article in Nature this week about the relationship of varroa and Deformed Wing Virus (DWV). https://www.nature.com/articles/srep45953

Some implications there perhaps for those who don't treat ... ?
LJ
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Acebird on April 20, 2017, 05:42:51 pm
Some implications there perhaps for those who don't treat ... ?

I saw some implications that they have no idea why some colonies continue to live year after year without treatment.  Then go on to make assumptions that the end is near.
Well OK I will make an assumption that these colonies survive because they are in a remote area and not influenced by colonies that are treated.  That would explain why when you move them to areas that have bees that are treated they die.  Simple solution to help the bees in the long run would be to ban treatments of all honeybees.  As long as we are making assumptions and calling it science...
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: sc-bee on July 15, 2017, 02:00:09 am
The problem is not the people not treating.  The problem is the people treating.

?If you?re not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you?re part of the problem?? Randy Oliver
LJ used as a tag
BTW - I don't think quoting Randy Oliver's opinion is really very helpful.

LJ

I am really surprise that a treatment free beekeeper would quote Oliver. A large majority of his page is devoted to varroa treatment. Well lets pick a quote from Oliver--- Better yet lets allow Olive to state it. Check here at 36:38 & 58:00 & 1:07 This presentation was in Feb 2017

I am not trying to offend anyone with graphic images... this is an actual picture from the Oliver presentation. Now tell me what Oliver thinks of TREATMENT FREE PLEASE.... REMEMBER we are picking and choosing QUOTES as they meet our needs. And MR. Bush I do respect your opinion(s).... just showing the other side of the coin...

(http://i65.tinypic.com/qnlpj7.jpg)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=as6lmZkN__E

Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on July 15, 2017, 10:05:47 pm
Maybe dogs who have a genetic predisposition to have mange should not be bred... but bees are not dogs.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Acebird on July 15, 2017, 10:36:41 pm
Maybe dogs who have a genetic predisposition to have mange should not be bred... but bees are not dogs.
Except the logic still holds true.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: sc-bee on July 16, 2017, 01:34:33 am
Maybe dogs who have a genetic predisposition to have mange should not be bred... but bees are not dogs.

Who said anything about breeding a mite infested (mange ) puppy ...Oliver certainly didn't in the clip. It is clearly titled "treatment". So the ones that have mange do you put a bullet in their head ( or drown them in soapy water)? Or do you not treat and let it crash or die and leave its infestation. And the point was, as you know, treatment of or lack of treatment being a good husbandry practice. I think you realize Oliver states treat to keep the colony alive so it won't crash and induce a mite bomb to your other hives, but do not breed form that colony. I had a treatment free beek tell me, but you are leaving the drones

So how do you get to where you are without treating for a beginner. Of course choosing good stock I understand. Finding it is another issue. Do you tell a newbee who just forked out hundreds of dollars on new hives to not treat them and soap them because they are mite prone/infested/bad stock. I recently heard a seasoned treatment free beek tell some newbees that in a meeting. That went over like that thing floating in the punch bowl.

 I admire where you are with your bees but I also understand it takes time to get there and some others don't understand that. They read and think oh I just don't treat at all with anything. Is that the answer?  It also takes a certain amount of isolation that some do not have... right? So what do you suggest to newbees, how do you get started without treatments of some kind... the "James Bond Live and Let Die Method?" I imagine die it would be? Or at least it seems that way for most???
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Acebird on July 16, 2017, 09:22:15 am
how do you get started without treatments of some kind... the "James Bond Live and Let Die Method?" I imagine die it would be? Or at least it seems that way for most???

If you live in an area that is highly influenced by beekeepers that treat you will end up jumping on the treatment mill.  At least it seems that way for most.  What is not explained to newbies is that bees still die on the treatment mill especially when the newbie is new.  So they fork over hundreds of dollars for their bees to get started, buy chemicals and such, and end up with dead bees.  If the solution was to treat and your bees lived it would make sense to me.  No one can claim their bees will live if they treat.  They can only claim they feel good about what they did.  If I were to treat I wouldn't feel good about what I did.  You have to do what feels good for you.
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: gww on July 16, 2017, 10:11:25 am
This may sound crazy and I am sure there are extreems on both sides but I started with 3 mini hives that made it through winter.  I apparrently did a pretty poor job of swarm control because all but one swarmed.  So I have two hives (and not big ones) that due to actions of me trying to forstall swarms and the bees actually swarming anyway, I have a total of eight hives from those three.  I did not porposely make a split except where the bees had queen cups with larva or queen cells in the hive.

The point of the above info is that if bees propagated in that manner and nothing killed them, there would be nothing but bees in this world.  I don't want to be miss-understood or considerred hard hearted and I want my bees to live but some bees have to die for some reason for things to stay in ballance.  If you moved rabbits or rats to some island that had no preditors, they would do some distruction and over populate and eventually get some disiese or eat themselves out of house and home till there was a population correction.

I want to keep my bees alive, I want to beat the odds, but I just think that some bees are going to die to keep the world in ballance.  So I sorta agree for my reasons with Ace's last post that in the end we figure out what we feel best about doing and then have some measure of success or failure.  Many times we may also come to wrong conclutions of why something happened.  We may find a bunch of bees that had died and did not have stores in the hive and we figure they starved to death and it might be that some other thing caused them not to gether the food or it might be that the food was just not there.  It is really hard to know for sure some of the time.

I haven't treated yet, but all my hives might die and I will be stuck looking for why.  They are living right now and I also look for the why in that.  I do expect to have some hives die no matter what I do cause at the rate of increase with out even trying, I know there would have to be some ebb and flow to keep things in ballance.

Like I said, I might be crazy in the way I think.

Another thing.  Ace might tell me that I have bad genetics and swarmy bees and I need to change.  I might say well I am going to kill half the hives and steal every thing from them and end up with still as many bees as you have and as much honey.

I only say the above to point out that there are many ways to skin a cat and it is hard to say what is right and what is wrong if the person that is doing the work is happy with what he is doing.  I realize there are extreems that are easy to judge as right or wrong but a whole bunch of gray areas that are hard to point a finger at.

I know I am still a dummy and some things are clearer as I go along and if I see them I adjust for the better and so I am sorta happy with how I am keeping bees now untill I change my mind and do it differrent and when I do it differrent I may still be a dummy in the big picture.

I would say if it was too easy a girl would do it but some girls do it better then me so I will just say, If it was to easy to do everyone would do it and the doing it would then have no value.  Pick your poisen and then do your best and take the good with the bad.
Cheers
gww
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: tycrnp on July 16, 2017, 11:19:29 am
Has anyone used this?  http://www.beegym.co.uk/
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: cao on July 16, 2017, 12:09:50 pm
Like I said, I might be crazy in the way I think.
If you are,  then I'm right there with you.  :grin:

Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: tycrnp on July 16, 2017, 04:22:18 pm
What are your thoughts on grease patties?
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: BeeMaster2 on July 16, 2017, 05:09:26 pm
Has anyone used this?  http://www.beegym.co.uk/

No but you could just a couple of wires from a wax foundation stapled to a board to do the same thing. Be sure it is over a screen bottom board so the mites cannot get back on the bees.
Jim
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: sc-bee on July 16, 2017, 09:16:40 pm
When I fist started just a short over a decade ago... I treated the fist year because in the class I took the extension agency stated to everyone treat, In particular for AFB and Apistan for mites. A couple years later they changed their stance on AFB treatment. I did not treat for about 6 years after that first year. I thought I had a good thing going... about have my hives made honey. Four years ago everything crashed? I have since tried to replace stock in particular with VSH queens/ swarms (I have bought no packages - bought about 4 nucs) and still I did not treat till I used OA vap last year. I am still struggling to pull things back together???

This is my 13th season and by far the worse.  I did not do much mite monitoring over the years because I did not plan to treat, I said why bother. I guess that is a mistake... I thought live and let die. I did check drone brood and never saw a real issue. I have never seen any DWV to speak of or any mite feces in comb etc. So I did look/ monitor I guess I just did not do washes or sugar shakes.

One major issue I have fought has been pesticide kills 3 years in a row before this year. My whole issue could possibly be pesticide related and getting an agency to help check for pesticides, I have found, is next to impossible. I live in strong ag country, peaches, and they are heavily sprayed constantly.  I move my hives Northward out of peaches and I have seen to hit an area of home gardeners and sevin dust.... at least at this time I suspect.

Splits I made with swarm queen cells died off... most mated but queens seemed to dwindle. supercedure or just simply seemed to disappear??? I still have hives fresh off local queens supercedeing as I type this and drones are getting low.  It has been tough... I just added some more VSH queens from the VP line and certified Russians from the Coy's.

I will monitor mites closer and go from there. Time will tell?????

Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Acebird on July 16, 2017, 10:10:23 pm
One major issue I have fought has been pesticide kills 3 years in a row before this year. My whole issue could possibly be pesticide related and getting an agency to help check for pesticides, I have found, is next to impossible. I live in strong ag country, peaches, and they are heavily sprayed constantly.  I move my hives Northward out of peaches and I have seen to hit an area of home gardeners and sevin dust.... at least at this time I suspect.


So what makes you think your problem is varroa?
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: sc-bee on July 17, 2017, 09:44:56 pm
One major issue I have fought has been pesticide kills 3 years in a row before this year. My whole issue could possibly be pesticide related and getting an agency to help check for pesticides, I have found, is next to impossible. I live in strong ag country, peaches, and they are heavily sprayed constantly.  I move my hives Northward out of peaches and I have seen to hit an area of home gardeners and sevin dust.... at least at this time I suspect.


So what makes you think your problem is varroa?

Exactly my point.... I will be looking closer again....will start doing some rolls or shakes...
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: little john on July 27, 2017, 07:40:46 am
Interesting how we've got ourselves into a 'treat or not-treat' binary way of thinking, as there's never been that much emphasis placed on the prevention of Varroa infestation ...
 
The main vectors for the spread of the Varroa mite are drifting and robbing - and both of these could be reduced by taking appropriate measures which, whilst not perhaps completely preventing the spread of infestation, it might at least reduce the numbers of mites introduced to each colony.

LJ
Title: Re: Varroa - to treat, or not to treat ?
Post by: Michael Bush on July 27, 2017, 10:51:44 am
>Interesting how we've got ourselves into a 'treat or not-treat' binary way of thinking...

I'm in a "I never think about Varroa" way of thinking.  They haven't been an issue for me for a decade and a half...