How to create big hives for maximum honey

[Bob Wilson]

In building a good population to coincide with a nectar flow, and preventing swarm control, do you beeks...
A: try more to time the population growth of a hive for the target day (HoneyPump calls it priming the pump)
B: or bust back the swarming impulse with splits and nuc making, then re-combine populations at the honey flow to create a few bigger hives for maximum honey production?

[NCNate]

I'll start off by saying I've only been beekeeping for 3 years.
Also, we are experiencing an early spring.
With that said, I let the bees build up naturally unless I have a hive that is running behind the others. Two out of 8 this year are behind. One had a drone laying queen, and the other was low on food.  Both of those were handled this week.
I also had 2 hives that were way ahead and not far from swarming. Both had 8 or 9 frames of brood in various stages and double deeps FULL of bees. I did walk away splits on both with 2 frames of mostly capped brood, 1 frame with eggs, and 2 of food to knock them back. I also added 2 extra shakes of bees. I have 2 nucs that are crammed now and will need to go into 10 frames in 2 weeks if it's warm enough, but they'll be able to stay warm if we have another cold snap and I've slowed the swarming tendency down a little.
The way those two are building up I'll probably have to split them again in a month. Next time I'll do a small split and take the queen to make them think they've swarmed, then go back in and remove all but 2 emergency cells in each.
Is this the right way?  I don't know, but I'd rather slow them down and have bees in boxes than chasing swarms.

[NigelP]

  I don't know, but I'd rather slow them down and have bees in boxes than chasing swarms.

Clip your queens wings...no swarm chasing they all come home. Then manage as you need to.

[yes2matt]

Here's what I'm thinking about doing, and would like some feedback.  I put supers on right at April 1. So I want foragers aplenty just then, for three months, then whatever.

A worker is capped about 12 days, goes foraging about 42 days after egg is laid.  (Right? Ish?)  So April 1 minus thirty days, I want all the capped brood I can find in the apiary into a single ten-frame box.

Then on the production hive, pull the queen into a nuc at the same time I add a whole box of brood on that T - 30.  So for that month they'll have not much to do except raise a queen and backfill all the cells that are recently emerged with nectar.

When April 1 comes along I should have > a fresh queen just started to lay; > a hive heavy with nectar needing a place to go; > a fresh pretty empty super of combs and blanks just waiting to store all that nectar that needs to be moved up for the new queen to use the cells, as well as whatever the surge of foragers are bringing in.

?? What do you think?
(Oh, wait.  That's THIS WEEK! Aaah!)



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Bob Wilson]

Matt. I thought the goal was to build up the hive, then pull the queen JUST at the opening of the honey flow.
Wouldn't that mean the next month or so of heavy nectar flow, with no hungry brood while a new queen is made, and a full hive of bees with nothing to do but bring in nectar?

[Bob Wilson]

NCNate.
I think you are right. That's the way I am doing mine.
I might do an experiment with mine. I might try both ways. 1. Managing hive strength to time with the arrival of our main nectar flow, and 2. Knock back other hives more severely by pulling frames to make nuc colonies, to ensure no swarming, then re-combine to make big hives at the honey flow.

[Michael Bush]

My goal is to keep them from swarming while letting them build up.  If that fails, then I split.  Most of this is timing.  In the spring they go into full brood rearing mode in order to peak the population in time to swarm.  They usually swarm about two weeks before the flow (a bell curve of course with outliers).  My goal is to postpone them swarming until the main flow.  I can usually get those two weeks.  But if I do anything to try to speed this up the population is likely to peak too early and then I have to split them or they will swarm.  Not ideal in my experience.  If you can postpone swarming until the main flow, they usually won't swarm during the flow unless you let them run out of room.

[yes2matt]

Matt. I thought the goal was to build up the hive, then pull the queen JUST at the opening of the honey flow.
Wouldn't that mean the next month or so of heavy nectar flow, with no hungry brood while a new queen is made, and a full hive of bees with nothing to do but bring in nectar?

Your suggested way might work even better; I keep supers on about three months; a later queen removal might give more brood for longer.

[Michael Bush]

The ideal time to remove a queen for maximum honey, is two weeks before the flow.

[Ben Framed]

Who of you use this practice?  (removing queens for more honey production) Or have you in the past tried this method?

[The15thMember]

Who of you use this practice?  (removing queens for more honey production) Or have you in the past tried this method?

I had it happen to me incidentally once, when I had a hive superseding while my sourwood flow was on.  The hive put on a ton of honey.  I've never done it on purpose though.  I'd be interested to learn more about it because my big flow coincides with the time of year when the mites start to skyrocket right before fall and I sometimes need to treat, which is always a hassle, and if I could do a brood break then, it might be a good combination of arresting the mites and getting more honey.   

[Michael Bush]

When I do cut-down splits the old location is queenless and I always attempt to hit that "2 week before" mark.

[beesnweeds]

  I cant predict when a flow is 2 weeks away in my area so this is what I do for max production.  Its a lot of lifting, but a lot of fun.  I have Russian mutts and they will build very quickly so I put on 2 or 3 supers as soon as overnight temps begin to reach about 50F. 
  Once swarm season begins pull the frame with the queen on it and put her in a box with another frame of open brood.  Fill the rest of the box with foundation or drawn comb.  Put frames back in the box you pulled the queen from. 
   Put a queen excluder on and then the 2 or 3 supers you had on.  Place another queen excluder on top of the supers.  Then place the queen on top with another entrance, I have a 1" or 3/4" hole drilled in the box.  Nurse bees will move up and the bees below will make another queen, continue to raise a swarm cell, or you can put a graft below.
   Keep adding supers as needed and once the queen below starts to lay you can remove the queen on top and start a new colony.

[Bob Wilson]

Michael.
Why 2 weeks before?
I would think that waiting to remove the queen at the beginning of the flow would put off the new queen emerging and raising hungry brood.

[Ben Framed]

Michael.
Why 2 weeks before?
I would think that waiting to remove the queen at the beginning of the flow would put off the new queen emerging and raising hungry brood.

Im not Michael but I think I 'might' know, (well at least in part). I think it is a safe assumption that we agree that Michael is an expert in such matters. I would like to take a guess anyway lol. My guess is it has something to do with feeding larva and brood when otherwise, excess resources could be used to go straight into honey production instead? If you time it just right, two weeks before the main flow, most of the brood should be hatched out, or emerged, leaving less emphasis on feeding, leaving excess nectar to go straight to honey production? Now Im guessing, I'm anxious to hear more from Michael and others who know the answer or answers to your question (and mine). 

Phillip

[Occam]

Michael.
Why 2 weeks before?
I would think that waiting to remove the queen at the beginning of the flow would put off the new queen emerging and raising hungry brood.

Im not Michael but I think I 'might' know, (well at least in part). I think it is a safe assumption that we agree that Michael is an expert in such matters. I would like to take a guess anyway lol. My guess is it has something to do with feeding larva and brood when otherwise, excess resources could be used to go straight into honey production instead? If you time it just right, two weeks before the main flow, most of the brood should be hatched out, or emerged, leaving less emphasis on feeding, leaving excess nectar to go straight to honey production? Now Im guessing, I'm anxious to hear more from Michael and others who know the answer or answers to your question (and mine). 

Phillip

I believe you're right, that's my understanding of it as well, however inexperienced

Aaron

[Michael Bush]

If you remove the queen two weeks before the flow it has several beneficial effects.  First, it buys you that two weeks where they won't swarm because they are queenless.  Second it's enough time for all of the capped brood to get capped (9 days https://bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm).  Third it's enough time for the unemployed nurse bees to start getting recruited to forage.  Things in a bee colony have momentum.  Once they start recruiting nurse bees they will continue until the needs of the hive cause a change.  Two weeks just works out to be just right for all those things to happen.  It's the recruiting of the otherwise nurse bees that gives the colony a huge foraging force.  By the time a new queen is raised and laying the old nurse bees are already recruited and will probably not revert back to nurse bees.  But to be honest I got the number from the old comb honey producers who invented the cut down split.

[Ben Framed]

The older nurse bee will have graduated to worker bees anyway, leaving the newly hatching bees to take their places as nurse bees with no brood to nurse, except keeping what is left of capped brood the right temperature.

How soon will the latest newly emerged bees convert to the work force, since their duties as nurse bees are no more?
I suppose its a win win. No more brood to feed and more bees to concentrate on forging thus more of the resources brought in to go to honey instead of brood.


Phillip

[Bob Wilson]

The two week of swarm control, and the conversion time of nurse bees to foragers. Thanks for those ideas.

[Ben Framed]

We might consider a negative of the hive possibly becoming a laying worker hive before the flow is over?

What does a laying worker hive look like? - Honey Bee Suite
https://www.honeybeesuite.com/what-does-a-laying-worker-hive-look-like/#:~:text=Without%20going%20into%20detail%2C%20laying,%2C%20suppress%20the%20workers'%20ovaries.

"How long before a queenless hive becomes a laying worker?
Roughly 'three' weeks.
Laying workers begin to show up roughly three weeks after a colony has gone queenless. Pheromones from open brood, and to some extent from the queen herself, suppress the workers' ovaries."